Challenge for Believers

[Nessie]

Why would Hungary admit to protecting their Jews, and then loosing a huge majority to the A-B gas chambers in a few short months in 1944? What about Romania, where there was a separate action, whereby Romanians shot c400,000 Jews and Roma.
Why do the present governments still admit to that?

I think the politicians would not want to have to participate in Holocaust memorials and other remembrances, for something that did not happen.

You know what, this is actually a fair point. Really what you are asking is "why does the Holocaust and its fallout make such little sense from the Revisionist position". Lets call its fallout the "post-Nuremberg liberal consensus".

I actually agree with you here Nessie that the way politicians, international organisations, entire governments etc act is very irrational, inexplicable and self-defeating. However, i put it to you, that this is also the case from the Orthodox perspective too.

Consider, from your perspective, the Allies saved the Jewish people from certain annihilation. Yet the Israel / USA relationship appears to be in complete inversion to what that relation should be, between saviour & saved.

Similarly consider the situation with the former Soviet Union, who from your perspective, sacrificed many millions of their own men to save the Jews. Yet, the situation here is almost identical, take for example the destruction of the former Soviet Union in the 1990s by the Jewish oligarchs. They ruined lives of millions of the very Russian families that sacrificed everything to save them.

That doesn't make sense. We are going completely off topic here, so please start a new thread about "the post-Nuremberg liberal consensus" where we can discuss how little of the Holocaust and it's fallout make sense, and we'll be sure to agree on many points I'm sure.

It makes no sense that only Denmark and Finland can evidence where their Jewish citizens were in 1944, but every other country is pretending they were killed, when they were being hidden by the Nazis, as that is what has to have happened, for the hoax to be.

[TlsMS93]

You claimed left wing social democracies will support the hoax, so what about right wing governments?

The right, if such a thing exists in the recent history of Europe, considers National Socialism to be a left-wing ideology and does not want to have contact or be classified as such, besides the fact that right-wing regimes are very pro-Zionist. The extreme right is the one that has the most courage to present disruptive thoughts and almost no government is of this matrix, not even Orbán I would say since in these countries the regime is parliamentary, so it needs alliances with other less radical parties or even parties opposed to them as we saw in Germany.

[Nessie]

You claimed left wing social democracies will support the hoax, so what about right wing governments?

The right, if such a thing exists in the recent history of Europe, considers National Socialism to be a left-wing ideology and does not want to have contact or be classified as such, besides the fact that right-wing regimes are very pro-Zionist. The extreme right is the one that has the most courage to present disruptive thoughts and almost no government is of this matrix, not even Orbán I would say since in these countries the regime is parliamentary, so it needs alliances with other less radical parties or even parties opposed to them as we saw in Germany.

Your argument is that it has been in the interests of every European government since WWII, to pretend they directly, or indirectly, assisted the Nazis in killing at least some of their Jewish citizens, except Denmark and Finland, who get to be the only ones to have stood up to the Nazis.

The conspiracy you allege gets increasingly bizarre!

[TlsMS93]

Your argument is that it has been in the interests of every European government since WWII, to pretend they directly, or indirectly, assisted the Nazis in killing at least some of their Jewish citizens, except Denmark and Finland, who get to be the only ones to have stood up to the Nazis.

The conspiracy you allege gets increasingly bizarre!

Which Danish Jew was gassed?

Finland was not occupied by Germany and was not part of the Axis, I don't know what you're getting at.

[Nessie]

Your argument is that it has been in the interests of every European government since WWII, to pretend they directly, or indirectly, assisted the Nazis in killing at least some of their Jewish citizens, except Denmark and Finland, who get to be the only ones to have stood up to the Nazis.

The conspiracy you allege gets increasingly bizarre!

Which Danish Jew was gassed?

Finland was not occupied by Germany and was not part of the Axis, I don't know what you're getting at.

I know you don't understand my point, because you have not bothered to do much research and what little you know, is distorted, inaccurate, unevidenced revisionist non-history.

Very few Danish Jews were arrested as the vast majority escaped to Sweden in an overnight operation, as the Danish government became aware they were going to be arrested. Rather than cooperate, like pretty much every other national government, the Danes resisted and saved the vast majority of their Jewish citizens.

Finland was aligned to the Nazis due to the common enemy of the Soviets. The Finish government refused to hand over its Jewish citizens, with a few exceptions and so, like the Danes, the vast majority of their Jewish citizens survived.

The point being that in 1944, there is evidence to show where Danish and Finnish Jews were. It is the Jews whom the Nazis arrested, for whom there is increasingly less evidence they were alive, in 1944. The challenge for revisionists, which they always fail at, is to evidence millions of Jews still alive in 1944.

That Denmark and Finland refused to hand over their Jews, means they did not play ball with the alleged Holocaust conspiracy, which needs Jews to be handed to the Nazis, and the Nazis to then hide them, so that we all think they were dead. Why did the French, or Hungarians, not play ball, refuse to hand over their Jews, so that they could stand proud and be able to say they resisted the Nazis and saved their Jews? If I was French or Hungarian and was part of the hoax, I would be unhappy that my country was shouldering the blame for something that did not happen and I would blow the hoax.

When you truly consider what is needed to have run a hoax as big as pretending to murder millions of Jews, you will see that it is not physically possible.

[Nazgul]

The point being that in 1944, there is evidence to show where Danish and Finnish Jews were. It is the Jews whom the Nazis arrested, for whom there is increasingly less evidence they were alive, in 1944.

Perhaps this is because the Soviets did not annex most of Finland post war, just 9%, nor did they annex Denmark at all. The Soviet Extraordinary Commission, the ones who helped the Katyn massacre had no influence in either of these countries.

[Nessie]

The point being that in 1944, there is evidence to show where Danish and Finnish Jews were. It is the Jews whom the Nazis arrested, for whom there is increasingly less evidence they were alive, in 1944.

Perhaps this is because the Soviets did not annex most of Finland post war, just 9%, nor did they annex Denmark at all. The Soviet Extraordinary Commission, the ones who helped the Katyn massacre had no influence in either of these countries.

The Soviets had no influence over half of Europe, and yet the entire of Europe agree, the Nazis mass murdered millions of Jews and others in gas chambers and by shooting. If the Holocaust was a Soviet hoax, it was in the West's interests to blow it.

[Nazgul]

The Soviets had no influence over half of Europe, and yet the entire of Europe agree, the Nazis mass murdered millions of Jews and others in gas chambers and by shooting. If the Holocaust was a Soviet hoax, it was in the West's interests to blow it.

Political expediency. Why do you think Hess was kept in Spandau prison 40 years before being found hanged in 1987.


Look where the death camps are.

[TlsMS93]

I know you don't understand my point, because you have not bothered to do much research and what little you know, is distorted, inaccurate, unevidenced revisionist non-history.

Very few Danish Jews were arrested as the vast majority escaped to Sweden in an overnight operation, as the Danish government became aware they were going to be arrested. Rather than cooperate, like pretty much every other national government, the Danes resisted and saved the vast majority of their Jewish citizens.

Finland was aligned to the Nazis due to the common enemy of the Soviets. The Finish government refused to hand over its Jewish citizens, with a few exceptions and so, like the Danes, the vast majority of their Jewish citizens survived.

The point being that in 1944, there is evidence to show where Danish and Finnish Jews were. It is the Jews whom the Nazis arrested, for whom there is increasingly less evidence they were alive, in 1944. The challenge for revisionists, which they always fail at, is to evidence millions of Jews still alive in 1944.

That Denmark and Finland refused to hand over their Jews, means they did not play ball with the alleged Holocaust conspiracy, which needs Jews to be handed to the Nazis, and the Nazis to then hide them, so that we all think they were dead. Why did the French, or Hungarians, not play ball, refuse to hand over their Jews, so that they could stand proud and be able to say they resisted the Nazis and saved their Jews? If I was French or Hungarian and was part of the hoax, I would be unhappy that my country was shouldering the blame for something that did not happen and I would blow the hoax.

When you truly consider what is needed to have run a hoax as big as pretending to murder millions of Jews, you will see that it is not physically possible.

Less than 10% of the Jews that the Germans believed were in France were deported. So the deportation from France was a total failure and the French Prime Minister Pierre Laval did not allow French Jews to be deported, he only allowed Jews who had naturalized French citizenship in the mid-1920s to go and not all of them went. So how can you accuse France of having collaborated? And the fact that they did not return after the war proves nothing.

Finnish Jews fought against the Red Army like any other Finnish conscript. The remaining

Danish Jews were mostly elderly and were not gassed, dispelling the myth of getting rid of the “useless mouths”.

From our understanding, the Polish Jews who were the bulk of those who passed through the Reinhardt camps went to the eastern territories occupied and absorbed by the USSR, so there is no need to explain where they were in 1944 in German ghettos and camps in the West. Where are they, you will ask, I ask, where are the ashes corresponding to the alleged quantity that were cremated?

[Nazgul]

From our understanding, the Polish Jews who were the bulk of those who passed through the Reinhardt camps went to the eastern territories occupied and absorbed by the USSR, so there is no need to explain where they were in 1944 in German ghettos and camps in the West. Where are they, you will ask, I ask, where are the ashes corresponding to the alleged quantity that were cremated?

It is not "our" understanding at all. The Russias took a good part of Poland and population during the M-R pact. There were enough labour camps in Poland for Jews to accomodate every one. Of course some were in konzentrationslager. Every Fplo states the transports stopping at 3000 or so Jewish Labour camps.

[Nessie]

I know you don't understand my point, because you have not bothered to do much research and what little you know, is distorted, inaccurate, unevidenced revisionist non-history.

Very few Danish Jews were arrested as the vast majority escaped to Sweden in an overnight operation, as the Danish government became aware they were going to be arrested. Rather than cooperate, like pretty much every other national government, the Danes resisted and saved the vast majority of their Jewish citizens.

Finland was aligned to the Nazis due to the common enemy of the Soviets. The Finish government refused to hand over its Jewish citizens, with a few exceptions and so, like the Danes, the vast majority of their Jewish citizens survived.

The point being that in 1944, there is evidence to show where Danish and Finnish Jews were. It is the Jews whom the Nazis arrested, for whom there is increasingly less evidence they were alive, in 1944. The challenge for revisionists, which they always fail at, is to evidence millions of Jews still alive in 1944.

That Denmark and Finland refused to hand over their Jews, means they did not play ball with the alleged Holocaust conspiracy, which needs Jews to be handed to the Nazis, and the Nazis to then hide them, so that we all think they were dead. Why did the French, or Hungarians, not play ball, refuse to hand over their Jews, so that they could stand proud and be able to say they resisted the Nazis and saved their Jews? If I was French or Hungarian and was part of the hoax, I would be unhappy that my country was shouldering the blame for something that did not happen and I would blow the hoax.

When you truly consider what is needed to have run a hoax as big as pretending to murder millions of Jews, you will see that it is not physically possible.

Less than 10% of the Jews that the Germans believed were in France were deported. So the deportation from France was a total failure and the French Prime Minister Pierre Laval did not allow French Jews to be deported, he only allowed Jews who had naturalized French citizenship in the mid-1920s to go and not all of them went. So how can you accuse France of having collaborated?

That just under a quarter of the Jews in France in 1940 were killed in the camps, means that France did provide a lot of cooperation with the Nazis. Why would the French accept those losses, as part of a hoax? Why would they not want to be more like Denmark or Finland and want to have saved the vast majority of their Jews?

And the fact that they did not return after the war proves nothing.

It is part of the circumstantial evidence that they were killed.

Finnish Jews fought against the Red Army like any other Finnish conscript. The remaining

Danish Jews were mostly elderly and were not gassed, dispelling the myth of getting rid of the “useless mouths”.

How do Denmark and Finland get a pass on the hoax? Why are they also not hoaxing at least a proportion of their Jews being murdered?

From our understanding, the Polish Jews who were the bulk of those who passed through the Reinhardt camps went to the eastern territories occupied and absorbed by the USSR, so there is no need to explain where they were in 1944 in German ghettos and camps in the West.

You cannot evidence over a million Polish Jews transported through the AR camps, resettled and then absorbed by the SU.

Where are they, you will ask, I ask, where are the ashes corresponding to the alleged quantity that were cremated?

Buried at the camp sites, as proven by the numerous archaeological surveys that found large areas of disturbed ground containing cremated human remains. Those areas of ground are the largest mass grave sites, in human history.

[Stubble]

You cannot evidence over a million Polish Jews transported through the AR camps, resettled and then absorbed by the SU.

You can't even give me a count of train cars, what's less an actual head count. You assume 'over a million' based on 'underground reports' (ie referencing spies and propagandists).

Even if taken at face value, you can be shown multiple stops on the way to the Aktion Reinhardt camps, and many camps around them with labor requirements.

From these 'pure extermination' camps, you have survivors transited west. This already undermined the 'pure extermination' thesis and yet no attempt was made to correct the assumed totals based on pure extermination. This is telling.

Many studies have made many excuses about not finding evidence to support the orthodox narrative.

There's also the problem of executing a warehouse full of people in 15 minutes with a single engine. At idle a gasoline engine for a t-34/85 will move enough air and pollutants to execute people in a space the size of an average bathroom in 15 minutes. At redline, enough to execute as many people as you can fit in an average den or livingroom.

I understand someone can commit suicide with a gasoline engine by confining themselves in their car. Their car is not an 'execution warehouse'. 1 motor won't do the job...

[Nessie]

You cannot evidence over a million Polish Jews transported through the AR camps, resettled and then absorbed by the SU.

You can't even give me a count of train cars, what's less an actual head count. You assume 'over a million' based on 'underground reports' (ie referencing spies and propagandists).

The evidence for how many were transported to the AR camps, comes from Nazi documents. Hofle recorded 713,555 arrivals from opening to 31/12/42. Ghetto transport records, the Stroop Report and Ganzenmueller Letter also evidence mass transports to the camps. The Warsaw shuttle train specifically records that trains returned empty.

You know all of that, so why are you lying that I am assuming based on Polish intelligence reports?

Even if taken at face value, you can be shown multiple stops on the way to the Aktion Reinhardt camps, and many camps around them with labor requirements.

Nazi, Jewish and local Poles all give evidence that no one got off the transports. Nazi documents make no reference to AR sending people to places other than the AR camps.

From these 'pure extermination' camps, you have survivors transited west.

Indeed, west or south, never east.

This already undermined the 'pure extermination' thesis and yet no attempt was made to correct the assumed totals based on pure extermination. This is telling.

It tells me that you only know the most simplistic of histories and have made no effort to understand the topic in more detail.

Many studies have made many excuses about not finding evidence to support the orthodox narrative.

Unevidenced assertion.

There's also the problem of executing a warehouse full of people in 15 minutes with a single engine. At idle a gasoline engine for a t-34/85 will move enough air and pollutants to execute people in a space the size of an average bathroom in 15 minutes. At redline, enough to execute as many people as you can fit in an average den or livingroom.

I understand someone can commit suicide with a gasoline engine by confining themselves in their car. Their car is not an 'execution warehouse'. 1 motor won't do the job...

Why do rely so heavily on an obviously logically flawed argument? Is it because you do not understand logic? Or, is your desire to believe so strong, that you just spout any old crap? Or, is it because you have no evidence and in desperation, you have to try and argue your claims?

[Stubble]

Why do rely so heavily on an obviously logically flawed argument? Is it because you do not understand logic? Or, is your desire to believe so strong, that you just spout any old crap? Or, is it because you have no evidence and in desperation, you have to try and argue your claims?

So, I take trade knowledge, I calculate lethal concentration of carbon monoxide by cubic feet, I don't even get into the problem of duct mitigation or total effective length, and I reach a technical conclusion, and it's just any old crap.

The rest, your numbers are either too low (look at what you have provided), or you lied when you said over a million. Otherwise, you are relying on 'underground reports'. Them's just facts.

[Nessie]

Why do rely so heavily on an obviously logically flawed argument? Is it because you do not understand logic? Or, is your desire to believe so strong, that you just spout any old crap? Or, is it because you have no evidence and in desperation, you have to try and argue your claims?

So, I take trade knowledge, I calculate lethal concentration of carbon monoxide by cubic feet, I don't even get into the problem of duct mitigation or total effective length, and I reach a technical conclusion, and it's just any old crap.

Why is your inability to calculate how it would work, proof that it never happened? Are you really so arrogant that you think because you cannot work it out, it cannot have happened?

The rest, your numbers are either too low (look at what you have provided), or you lied when you said over a million. Otherwise, you are relying on 'underground reports'. Them's just facts.

It was over a million for all the AR camps, of which TII made up c850,000. I am clearly not relying on underground reports, when I can quote the names of the Nazis who provided the evidence of mass transports to the camp and how many went.