Challenge for Believers

[Stubble]

Would you settle for a report from the 'International jewish Congress' or with testimonies to the United States Congress via committee?

Absolutely.

Let me get the shovel. I'll get back to the 'refugee' microfilm. I've also got to check a couple of leads from some documentaries about testimony to Congress during the cold war about the Soviet and their treatment of 'the jews'. I didn't memorize names or anything so I will have to vet them.

Hang loose, I'll be back with it. Seems like I've got about a half a dozen follow ups I owe you at this point.

I apologize for my tardiness in reply, but, I will. There is much matter to sort through and collate. Then I need to vet what I've got.

[bombsaway]

Would you settle for a report from the 'International jewish Congress' or with testimonies to the United States Congress via committee?

Absolutely.

Let me get the shovel. I'll get back to the 'refugee' microfilm. I've also got to check a couple of leads from some documentaries about testimony to Congress during the cold war about the Soviet and their treatment of 'the jews'. I didn't memorize names or anything so I will have to vet them.

Hang loose, I'll be back with it. Seems like I've got about a half a dozen follow ups I owe you at this point.

I apologize for my tardiness in reply, but, I will. There is much matter to sort through and collate. Then I need to vet what I've got.

I'm a patient guy, don't worry about it and I'm not going to press you to present anything. You should write these down somewhere though.

[Stubble]

I've got about a half a dozen stickies on the to do board with your name on 'em.

[Nessie]

As I pointed to some very detailed evidence as to the whereabouts of NK defectors, you claim they do not count and only those who for whom there is little information count. But there is still some information, as in it is evidenced they hide in China and if found they are sent back. They are all from the same group, they are NK people who defected from NK.

Jews arrested by the Nazis 1939-44 are all part of the same group. If they had not been killed, then by 1944, that group would be massive. But by 1945 that group is tiny and you cannot evidence the rest were still alive. Unlike the NK, you have far more people totally unaccounted for. It is not like the NK hiding in China, for whom there is some evidence, there is zero evidence. Nothing. Diddly squat. You cannot say where they were.

The missing Jews is also odd, since the Nazis knew they were being accused of killing them, so it was in their interests to show they were still alive and end that allegation. The opposite applies to NK defectors, for whom as you say, it is some nation states, primarily NK and China, to hide evidence of what happened to those people.

"As i pointed to some very detailed evidence"

Nothing during the period in question, and all post-1998 for some pathetic reason. Meaning you have 4 decades worth of non-existent information, which is exactly what I challenged you to find, the exact era I specified, and the exact analogy being made because it can't be done. Laughable.

"Unlike the NK, you have far more people totally unaccounted for"

Pissing around with estimates of who arrived in S Korea since 1998 and presented themselves to an authority is a woefully incomplete set and contrasts with the entire missing set in question which was your original challenge. Your failure in this challenge underscores why this is so difficult: you're not meant to find them, genius.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/ ... seoul-says

"An estimated 31,000 North Koreans have defected to South Korea since the 1950s. Most cross into China and seek new lives in the South via a third country."

https://www.asianstudies.org/publicatio ... -diaspora/

"...only some 600 North Koreans man­aged to flee to South Korea during all but two years of the Cold War era(until 1989), and these escapees were, for the most part, diplo­mats, border guards, fishermen, and pilots (see Figure 1 below)"

https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-paci ... 024-10-31/

"Tens of thousands of North Koreans have defected in the decades since the Korean War ended in 1953 with an armistice, with many of those caught or repatriated sent to prison camps or other detention facilities before being released."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_defectors

"The number of defectors since the 1950–1953 Korean War is more than 26,000.[17]"

You are exhibiting a characteristic common with revisionists, you don't look for evidence that will contradict your desired beliefs.

[Nessie]

Would you settle for a report from the 'International jewish Congress' or with testimonies to the United States Congress via committee?

Absolutely.

I would caution that would be hearsay evidence and question why it is not coming from the Nazis.

[HansHill]

For all of these reasons and more, no exterminationist will be able to put a number on it, let alone tell you where they are or where they went, or where they died. At best they will give you a range, at worst they will be completely honest and tell you its impossible.

Just to remind our friend Nessie here what his challenge entails, because I almost spit out my Iced Latte reading his slop.

Now to work through his findings:

Source 1

- Self referential, therefore circular - (the link where the claim of 31,000 is made goes to another Guardian article where the 31,000 is not substantiated)
- Disagrees with, and is undermined by Source 2 which I will explain to everyone below.

Source 2

- Cites 600 during the Cold War, and 26,000 total arriving in SK, citing Daniel J. Schwekendiek (DJS)
- Claims that media sources (like 1 above and 3 below) are inaccurate
- However, this same DJS is later cited again, giving the figures of ~6,000 and ~12,000 respectively, providing two other sources



- Regarding the China number, the same source by DJS tells us:

Not only have North Koreans massively migrated to South Korea, the
majority has migrated illegally to China. Exact numbers are almost
impossible to obtain. In the early 2000s, border guards once noted that
35 to 50 persons cross the frontier on an average day (Nanchu and
Hang 2003: 115), while in 1997, other guards put the number at 2,000
(Becker 1996: 330). Frequently used figures for the North Korean
population in China circulating in the media were 100,000 to 300,000
as of 2002 (Smith 2002), or 100,000 to 400,000 in the late 1990s
(Shim 1999).

Emphasis mine.

- While source 2 tells us that media outlets are inaccurate, DJS cites several academics who in turn are even more overinflated than the media outlets, examples:

- Nanchu & Hang (2003) cite 35 - 50 defectors per day
- Becker (1996) cites 2,000 defectors per day
- Smith (2002) cites 100,000 - 300,000 in China alone
- Shim (1999) cites 100,000 - 400,000, again in China alone

Meaning, nobody cited by Nessie or the network of citations therein, has any clue what is going on.

Source 3

- Did you even read this? The title is "Dozens of North Korean defectors caught by secret police 'vanish', says rights group"
- This entire article supports my premise that these defectors are disappeared and you cannot quantify them or account for their whereabouts or their fate
- Additionally, NK denies these reports (naturally) and with China also denying how "defectors" are accounted for compared with "economic migrants".

Here's a similar article to your third source, which again says a very similar thing about the disappearances:

https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-paci ... 023-12-07/

Up to 600 North Korean defectors deported by China 'vanish' - rights group

So to recap:

HH: "you cannot quantify or account for these people, at best you could provide estimates or ranges - because this information is intentionally withheld from you"

Nessie: Provides estimate ranges that contradict each other, themselves acknowledging it is impossible, and that these people are routinely "vanished" and therefore the information is withheld from him.

Challenge failed. I want to be fair to you Nessie, i don't think you are necessarily a low IQ person, far from it. Rather, what I personally think is that you were so desperate for a slam dunk, you found whatever looked appealing and sloppily pasted it into Codoh. So you are either a sloppy operator, or you are ideologically motivated into these recurring copes. That's probably the best compliment you are likely to get round these parts, so you are doing well!

[Nessie]

For all of these reasons and more, no exterminationist will be able to put a number on it, let alone tell you where they are or where they went, or where they died. At best they will give you a range, at worst they will be completely honest and tell you its impossible.

Just to remind our friend Nessie here what his challenge entails, because I almost spit out my Iced Latte reading his slop.

Now to work through his findings:

Source 1

- Self referential, therefore circular - (the link where the claim of 31,000 is made goes to another Guardian article where the 31,000 is not substantiated)
- Disagrees with, and is undermined by Source 2 which I will explain to everyone below.

Source 2

- Cites 600 during the Cold War, and 26,000 total arriving in SK, citing Daniel J. Schwekendiek (DJS)
- Claims that media sources (like 1 above and 3 below) are inaccurate
- However, this same DJS is later cited again, giving the figures of ~6,000 and ~12,000 respectively, providing two other sources



- Regarding the China number, the same source by DJS tells us:

Not only have North Koreans massively migrated to South Korea, the
majority has migrated illegally to China. Exact numbers are almost
impossible to obtain. In the early 2000s, border guards once noted that
35 to 50 persons cross the frontier on an average day (Nanchu and
Hang 2003: 115), while in 1997, other guards put the number at 2,000
(Becker 1996: 330). Frequently used figures for the North Korean
population in China circulating in the media were 100,000 to 300,000
as of 2002 (Smith 2002), or 100,000 to 400,000 in the late 1990s
(Shim 1999).

Emphasis mine.

- While source 2 tells us that media outlets are inaccurate, DJS cites several academics who in turn are even more overinflated than the media outlets, examples:

- Nanchu & Hang (2003) cite 35 - 50 defectors per day
- Becker (1996) cites 2,000 defectors per day
- Smith (2002) cites 100,000 - 300,000 in China alone
- Shim (1999) cites 100,000 - 400,000, again in China alone

Meaning, nobody cited by Nessie or the network of citations therein, has any clue what is going on.

Source 3

- Did you even read this? The title is "Dozens of North Korean defectors caught by secret police 'vanish', says rights group"
- This entire article supports my premise that these defectors are disappeared and you cannot quantify them or account for their whereabouts or their fate
- Additionally, NK denies these reports (naturally) and with China also denying how "defectors" are accounted for compared with "economic migrants".

Here's a similar article to your third source, which again says a very similar thing about the disappearances:

https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-paci ... 023-12-07/

Up to 600 North Korean defectors deported by China 'vanish' - rights group

So to recap:

HH: "you cannot quantify or account for these people, at best you could provide estimates or ranges - because this information is intentionally withheld from you"

Nessie: Provides estimate ranges that contradict each other, themselves acknowledging it is impossible, and that these people are routinely "vanished" and therefore the information is withheld from him.

Challenge failed.

Indeed, the precise challenge is failed, as we both knew would happen from the start, since the challenge was to "geo-locate, but to quantify every North Korean defector since the State's inception." and you acknowledged "Clearly this is not possible...". Your challenge is a false analogy with the question "where did they go?" about the Jews that the Nazis arrested, because it does not require the geo-location and quantities of every arrested Jew still in Nazi custody in 1944 and liberated in 1945.

I want to be fair to you Nessie, i don't think you are necessarily a low IQ person, far from it. Rather, what I personally think is that you were so desperate for a slam dunk, you found whatever looked appealing and sloppily pasted it into Codoh. So you are either a sloppy operator, or you are ideologically motivated into these recurring copes. That's probably the best compliment you are likely to get round these parts, so you are doing well!

You do not want to be fair at all, hence your false analogy. What I have shown and you have helpfully quoted above, is that enough detail can be found in basic, English, online sources, to say that the vast majority of NK defectors have gone to SK, that the rate of defections during the Cold War was lower than subsequent years and that defectors who go to China are returned, so they try to hide. We also know a figure for the number of returned defectors who disappear.

Now, how about you do that with the Dutch Jews sent to Sobibor in 1943? You have a head start since there are precise Dutch figures for how many were sent, and when and Nazi records of transports to and arrivals at the camp. There were 34,131, so where were they in December 1943? Produce the levels of information I have provided as to what happened to NK defectors during the Cold War era.

[HansHill]

You do not want to be fair at all, hence your false analogy. What I have shown and you have helpfully quoted above, is that enough detail can be found in basic, English, online sources, to say that the vast majority of NK defectors have gone to SK, that the rate of defections during the Cold War was lower than subsequent years and that defectors who go to China are returned, so they try to hide. We also know a figure for the number of returned defectors who disappear.

Now, how about you do that with the Dutch Jews sent to Sobibor in 1943? You have a head start since there are precise Dutch figures for how many were sent, and when and Nazi records of transports to and arrivals at the camp. There were 34,131, so where were they in December 1943? Produce the levels of information I have provided as to what happened to NK defectors during the Cold War era.

It highlights very neatly that interested governments can and do obfuscate movements and fates of entire groups of people, for their own reasons, in the hundreds of thousands, to the extent that a layperson or even an academic cannot untangle.

[Nessie]

You do not want to be fair at all, hence your false analogy. What I have shown and you have helpfully quoted above, is that enough detail can be found in basic, English, online sources, to say that the vast majority of NK defectors have gone to SK, that the rate of defections during the Cold War was lower than subsequent years and that defectors who go to China are returned, so they try to hide. We also know a figure for the number of returned defectors who disappear.

Now, how about you do that with the Dutch Jews sent to Sobibor in 1943? You have a head start since there are precise Dutch figures for how many were sent, and when and Nazi records of transports to and arrivals at the camp. There were 34,131, so where were they in December 1943? Produce the levels of information I have provided as to what happened to NK defectors during the Cold War era.

It highlights very neatly that interested governments can and do obfuscate movements and fates of entire groups of people, for their own reasons, in the hundreds of thousands, to the extent that a layperson or even an academic cannot untangle.

What is in the interest of every government of every European country occupied by, or aligned to Nazi Germany, to admit to its role in the Holocaust and the deaths of its Jewish citizens?

How come, if it is a hoax, Denmark and Finland got to excuse themselves, be able to say they did not take part and we can evidence where their Jewish citizens were in 1944? Why do they not have to be part of the hoax and admit that many of their citizens were murdered, with their assistance?

[TlsMS93]

What is in the interest of every government of every European country occupied by, or aligned to Nazi Germany, to admit to its role in the Holocaust and the deaths of its Jewish citizens?

How come, if it is a hoax, Denmark and Finland got to excuse themselves, be able to say they did not take part and we can evidence where their Jewish citizens were in 1944? Why do they not have to be part of the hoax and admit that many of their citizens were murdered, with their assistance?

Because these countries are generally left-wing social-democrats who will use anything they can to stop the advance of the far right. So they will always corroborate anything the far right claims to have in its base to stay in power and embarrass their enemies. But despite this, there is still opposition being accused of promoting Holocaust revisionism.

Do you really think that these politicians from European countries are civilized enough not to consider politics above the interests of their people? You're joking.

[Nessie]

What is in the interest of every government of every European country occupied by, or aligned to Nazi Germany, to admit to its role in the Holocaust and the deaths of its Jewish citizens?

How come, if it is a hoax, Denmark and Finland got to excuse themselves, be able to say they did not take part and we can evidence where their Jewish citizens were in 1944? Why do they not have to be part of the hoax and admit that many of their citizens were murdered, with their assistance?

Because these countries are generally left-wing social-democrats who will use anything they can to stop the advance of the far right. So they will always corroborate anything the far right claims to have in its base to stay in power and embarrass their enemies. But despite this, there is still opposition being accused of promoting Holocaust revisionism.

Do you really think that these politicians from European countries are civilized enough not to consider politics above the interests of their people? You're joking.

Why would Hungary admit to protecting their Jews, and then loosing a huge majority to the A-B gas chambers in a few short months in 1944? What about Romania, where there was a separate action, whereby Romanians shot c400,000 Jews and Roma.
Why do the present governments still admit to that?

I think the politicians would not want to have to participate in Holocaust memorials and other remembrances, for something that did not happen.

[TlsMS93]

Why would Hungary admit to protecting their Jews, and then loosing a huge majority to the A-B gas chambers in a few short months in 1944? What about Romania, where there was a separate action, whereby Romanians shot c400,000 Jews and Roma.
Why do the present governments still admit to that?

I think the politicians would not want to have to participate in Holocaust memorials and other remembrances, for something that did not happen.

I explained but you read quickly, so I can't do anything.

[Nessie]

Why would Hungary admit to protecting their Jews, and then loosing a huge majority to the A-B gas chambers in a few short months in 1944? What about Romania, where there was a separate action, whereby Romanians shot c400,000 Jews and Roma.
Why do the present governments still admit to that?

I think the politicians would not want to have to participate in Holocaust memorials and other remembrances, for something that did not happen.

I explained but you read quickly, so I can't do anything.

You claimed left wing social democracies will support the hoax, so what about right wing governments?

[HansHill]

Why would Hungary admit to protecting their Jews, and then loosing a huge majority to the A-B gas chambers in a few short months in 1944? What about Romania, where there was a separate action, whereby Romanians shot c400,000 Jews and Roma.
Why do the present governments still admit to that?

I think the politicians would not want to have to participate in Holocaust memorials and other remembrances, for something that did not happen.

You know what, this is actually a fair point. Really what you are asking is "why does the Holocaust and its fallout make such little sense from the Revisionist position". Lets call its fallout the "post-Nuremberg liberal consensus".

I actually agree with you here Nessie that the way politicians, international organisations, entire governments etc act is very irrational, inexplicable and self-defeating. However, i put it to you, that this is also the case from the Orthodox perspective too.

Consider, from your perspective, the Allies saved the Jewish people from certain annihilation. Yet the Israel / USA relationship appears to be in complete inversion to what that relation should be, between saviour & saved.

Similarly consider the situation with the former Soviet Union, who from your perspective, sacrificed many millions of their own men to save the Jews. Yet, the situation here is almost identical, take for example the destruction of the former Soviet Union in the 1990s by the Jewish oligarchs. They ruined lives of millions of the very Russian families that sacrificed everything to save them.

That doesn't make sense. We are going completely off topic here, so please start a new thread about "the post-Nuremberg liberal consensus" where we can discuss how little of the Holocaust and it's fallout make sense, and we'll be sure to agree on many points I'm sure.

[Stubble]

Mr Hill, you appear to have misspelled 'suicidal' in your post. You appear to have spelled it 'self-defeating'.