Challenge for Believers

[Nazgul]

The policy was, in part, extermination through labour. Ghettos produced a lot of labour.

Ghettos were places of living not Zwangarbeitslager für Juden.

I find information quite easily, and it always contradicts your claims

Yet in a previous post you reject AI, which rejects your way of thought. How can you differentiate AI from the other sources.? Even AI can formulate references.

[Nessie]

The policy was, in part, extermination through labour. Ghettos produced a lot of labour.

Ghettos were places of living not Zwangarbeitslager für Juden.

I find information quite easily, and it always contradicts your claims

Yet in a previous post you reject AI, which rejects your way of thought. How can you differentiate AI from the other sources.? Even AI can formulate references.

A reminder from the OP;

"My challenge is simply this: demonstrate with evidence where all these groups expelled went. In short, where did they go?"

The groups referred to are linked to in the OP and the links contain evidence as to where they went. They are displaced people for whom many can be traced.

The point of the challenge has fallen at the first hurdle, as it is a series of examples of displaced people for whom there is evidence as to where they ended up, so why can revisionists not manage to evidence where millions of Jews, supposedly not killed 1939-44, being accommodated in 1944?

The evidenced answer is that is because they were killed, hence there is no evidence of them alive, in their millions in 1944.

[bombsaway]

This thread has gotten a little side tracked



I posted this response which may have gotten lost in the shuffle

Tell you what bombsaway. You give us whatever you think is better evidence. Use your own judgement and disregard my opinion on this entirely. Others can then make the comparisons themselves and make up their own mind.

What do you think of this? https://chatgpt.com/share/67d4eb5a-f52c ... 104aa53f9d

If you think something is suspect we can zero in and do it manually. I thought your request was kind of absurd, it's obvious that these mass movements are much better evidenced than what happened to the "gassed" Jews.

By the way, I should clarify this. This does not mean Jews who were kept for labor, in known facilities. This does not mean Jews who survived after a certain point in 1944 when extermination activities were halted. Kues knows what is meant by "gassed" Jews , https://codoh.com/library/document/evid ... st-part-1/ He does the study here.

We also know Jews within USSR were being mass "resettled". https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... to_16.html What happened to those is also unknown.

The request to revisionists is not to identify what happened to each and every Jew, I think it's delusional to even think this is the request. The request is to be able to piece together a general narrative about what happened to them, if not gas or shooting. You guys don't have the faintest idea, and this is where the evidence problem comes in. You can say they were interned somewhere, but there's actually no evidence of this, so it's purely speculative. Fireoffice's question is a good one actually, and will illuminate well the problem with your guys theory.

The summary of the chatgpt link is

# Analysis of the ChatGPT Response in the Holocaust Revisionist Debate

The ChatGPT response represents a significant challenge to the Holocaust revisionist argument known as the "where did they go?" challenge. This comprehensive collection of primary source testimonies and official documentation for 21 historical population transfers provides critical context that undermines key revisionist claims.

## Methodical Documentation of Population Transfers

What stands out most is the methodical, case-by-case approach to documenting historical population movements. The response presents detailed information on the availability of both personal testimonies and official documentation for each transfer, covering events from the Turkey-Greece population exchange of 1923 to Palestinian displacements that continue to the present day.

For each example, ChatGPT provides:
- Specific named individuals and their firsthand accounts
- Estimates of available testimonies (ranging from dozens to thousands)
- Details about official documentation (government records, treaties, reports)
- Information about where these sources are archived
- Assessment of language barriers to accessing these sources

This structured approach creates a powerful comparative framework that directly confronts the revisionist argument.

## Quantitative Evidence Contradicts Revisionist Claims

The quantitative aspect is particularly damaging to revisionist arguments. For even relatively small population transfers (like the expulsion of 3,691 Germans from the Netherlands), official documentation exists. Larger transfers, like the post-WWII expulsion of ethnic Germans from Eastern Europe, generated tens of thousands of testimonies and extensive government records.

This systematically demonstrates that population transfers typically create substantial documentary evidence - regardless of the era, political circumstances, or technology available. This contradicts the revisionist suggestion that millions of Jews could have been "resettled" without leaving a comparable documentary trail.

## Quality and Diversity of Sources

The response highlights the diverse types of evidence that typically accompany population transfers:
- Personal letters and diaries written during the events
- Oral histories recorded later
- Official government decrees ordering the transfers
- Transport manifests and logistical records
- Census data from before and after transfers
- Diplomatic correspondence between nations
- Reports from neutral organizations like the Red Cross

This diversity of source types further undermines the revisionist position by showing that even when governments attempted to conceal forced migrations (as with Soviet deportations), multiple lines of evidence eventually emerge.

## Contextualizing Revisionist Arguments

What makes this response particularly effective is how it contextualizes the "where did they go?" challenge. By providing detailed evidence for other historical population transfers, it exposes a central contradiction in revisionist methodology: they demand an impossible standard of evidence for the Holocaust while ignoring the substantial documentation that does exist.

If smaller population transfers of 20,000-300,000 people left clear historical traces through both testimonies and official documentation, then the supposed "resettlement" of millions of Jews would logically have produced even more substantial evidence. The absence of such evidence becomes, itself, evidence against the revisionist position.

## Conclusion

The ChatGPT response functions as a devastating rebuttal to the revisionist challenge by demonstrating that historical population transfers invariably leave multiple forms of evidence. This comparative approach shifts the burden back to revisionists: if millions of Jews were indeed "resettled" rather than murdered, where is the documentary evidence comparable to what exists for other population transfers? Where are the thousands of testimonies, the government records, the resettlement plans, and the logistical documentation that accompanied every other major population movement of the 20th century?

By systematically documenting how other historical population transfers are known and verified, the response effectively dismantles a central pillar of Holocaust denial methodology.

The total lack of evidence here is extremely strong circumstantial evidence that the Jews were killed. One could say it's also strong evidence of a conspiracy to cover up all the data generated, but the issue is the cover up is not evidenced to any degree. One can say it's possible perhaps (though I would argue deeply implausible), but in history events aren't asserted based on possibility and nothing more. The narrative that they died, therefore generated no documentation or other evidence of transit is not only more sensible but evidenced in a bunch of different ways.

In response to this, from the OP

My challenge is simply this: demonstrate with evidence where all these groups expelled went. In short, where did they go? The evidence of course has to surpass the evidence revisionists like Thomas Kues have provided for the resettlements of Jews by the Reich to the east since you don't accept that as being sufficient.

I posted Kues, why don't you pick a single resettlement by chat GPT and lets do a deep dive on the evidence presented and compare the two

[Nazgul]

The point of the challenge has fallen at the first hurdle, as it is a series of examples of displaced people for whom there is evidence as to where they ended up, so why can revisionists not manage to evidence where millions of Jews, supposedly not killed 1939-44, being accommodated in 1944?

The evidenced answer is that is because they were killed, hence there is no evidence of them alive, in their millions in 1944.

Labour camps for Jews mainly as well as some konzentrationslager and other SS facilities. On top of that the math show that the Jewish numbers were highly exageratted.

[Nessie]

This thread has backfired.

The challenge was, "demonstrate with evidence where all these groups expelled went. In short, where did they go?". A link was provided to an article about large scale population movements. In that article is a link to the evidence to prove where each group went. So the link meets the challenge.

What that makes abundantly clear, is how revisionists are an exception, as they cannot evidence the large scale population movement they alleged. They cannot evidence the Nazis resettled millions of Jews in the east, which would mean by 1944, millions were living there.

[Nazgul]

They cannot evidence the Nazis resettled millions of Jews in the east, which would mean by 1944, millions were living there.

The intention and actuality are two different things. In fact the Reich intended to resettle some Jews in an abandoned town, the Russian side of Poland. This was the time when Treblinka, Sobibor and Belzec were border towns after the M-R pact. This intention was scuttled as the war changed. ( I wrote about this in the last incarnation of RODOH with the evidence). There were about 3000 Jewish Labour camps during 1942; the names are known for about half of those. The assumption promulgated by Raul Hilberg using Fahrplananordnung 587, the transport schedule from Sedziszow to Treblinka was that the occupants of 50 carriages were sent to the final destination. It is obvious to most he was wrong. The train stopped at many places with Jewish labour camps or railway junctions to other labour camps for Jews, the most notable being Skarżysko-Kamienna which had 8,000 Jewish Labourers, many who succumbed to TNT toxicity (the same happened in Scotland to British workers in ammo factories). There is no reason to suggest that Jews did not disembark at these Jewish Labour Camps.

[Nessie]

Some basic research on Skarzysko-Kamienna;

https://pl-m-wikipedia-org.translate.go ... _tr_pto=sc

"The ghetto was liquidated in October 1942. The approximately 3,000 Jews remaining there were divided into three groups – some were shot on the spot, 500 people were transported to the forced labour camp at the HASAG factory located in the city, and the remaining majority were taken to the Treblinka extermination camp and murdered there."

https://pl-m-wikipedia-org.translate.go ... _tr_pto=sc

"On September 8, 1939, the city was occupied by German troops , and the factory was taken over by the private arms concern "Hasag". During the German occupation in 1942-1944, there were three camps at the ammunition factory in Skarżysko: Werk A, Werk B, Werk C, where Jewish prisoners performed slave labor. The dead and murdered were burned in a makeshift crematorium on the premises of the factory's shooting range. During the war, a total of about 35,000 people died on the premises of the factory [13] . At the turn of July and August 1944, the entire factory was evacuated. A group of several dozen Jewish escapees (including women) from the labor camp at the factory were murdered on August 17, 1944 in the Siekierzyński Forest near Suchedniów by soldiers from a Home Army unit [14] ."

There is no evidence transports to TII, dropped Jews off to work at the camp and the ghetto had transports of Jews to TII.

There is something wrong that so called revisionists cannot evidence their suggested revisions, but they doggedly hand on to their unevidenced beliefs.

[Nazgul]

At the turn of July and August 1944, the entire factory was evacuated.
There is no evidence transports to TII, dropped Jews off to work at the camp

Yet on the 21 Sept 1942, Fplo 587 documents that the transport stopped at Skarżysko-Kam for an hour and one minute before departure to Radom. No camp in Radom so the train leaves 20 mins later, no doubt a smoko break. I have provided the evidence of a Sobibor witness arriving at S-K by train. There is only a single line to S-K and that is via Warsaw to Siedlce, one of the two lines to Treblinka.

[Nessie]

At the turn of July and August 1944, the entire factory was evacuated.
There is no evidence transports to TII, dropped Jews off to work at the camp

Yet on the 21 Sept 1942, Fplo 587 documents that the transport stopped at Skarżysko-Kam for an hour and one minute before departure to Radom. No camp in Radom so the train leaves 20 mins later, no doubt a smoko break. I have provided the evidence of a Sobibor witness arriving at S-K by train. There is only a single line to S-K and that is via Warsaw to Siedlce, one of the two lines to Treblinka.

Your standard of evidencing is incredibly low. You cannot evidence anyone getting off a TII transport to go to S-K and you claim you have a Sobibor witness, with no link to the evidence for that. You ignore all the evidence that people did not get off TII transports and that the Nazis sent people from S-K to the camp.

Cherry-picking, ignoring and otherwise manipulating the evidence, will lead you to make incorrect conclusions.

[bombsaway]

It's delusion to say the Jewish population of Poland didn't precipitously drop (ie they were kept in camps there). This is corroborated by official censuses and all manner of disparate sources. Eg I was just looking through Hans Frank's diaries and he says "we have perhaps 100,000 Jews left in the GG" in 1944

In August 1943

"we started off with 3.5 million Jews, of whom only a few labour companies are left, all the others have--let us say--emigrated"

[Stubble]

It's delusion to say the Jewish population of Poland didn't precipitously drop (ie they were kept in camps there). This is corroborated by official censuses and all manner of disparate sources. Eg I was just looking through Hans Frank's diaries and he says "we have perhaps 100,000 Jews left in the GG" in 1944

In August 1943

"we started off with 3.5 million Jews, of whom only a few labour companies are left, all the others have--let us say--emigrated"

I recently ran across this video from alt hype. I have not been through to vet his sources, but I cannot instantly recognize any flaws in the presentation.

[bombsaway]

Stubble, I'm not sure what alt hype claims are, I assume he is mostly recapitulating Sanning's work, which has been dissected elsewhere https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... art-1.html If you're not making specific claims I see no need to address Alt Hype's video in kind.

The simple fact and relevance to this thread is German documents of all forms record a precipitous population drop of Jewish population. Even if we assume Sanning / Alt Hype are correct, this is still a massive population transfer that is wholly unevidenced, unlike the population movements mentioned in the OP.

[Stubble]

Stubble, I'm not sure what alt hype claims are, I assume he is mostly recapitulating Sanning's work, which has been dissected elsewhere https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... art-1.html If you're not making specific claims I see no need to address Alt Hype's video in kind.

The simple fact and relevance to this thread is German documents of all forms record a precipitous population drop of Jewish population. Even if we assume Sanning / Alt Hype are correct, this is still a massive population transfer that is wholly unevidenced, unlike the population movements mentioned in the OP.

Watch it, he gets to population transfer. He does cite sanning, but, to say he just copies it is a simplification. He also cites Hilberg etc. He further shows transfers of jews into the Soviet Union through documentation and their disposition.

The evidence presented is at least as strong as what has been presented for jewish expulsions throughout history.

[bombsaway]

Stubble, I'm not sure what alt hype claims are, I assume he is mostly recapitulating Sanning's work, which has been dissected elsewhere https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... art-1.html If you're not making specific claims I see no need to address Alt Hype's video in kind.

The simple fact and relevance to this thread is German documents of all forms record a precipitous population drop of Jewish population. Even if we assume Sanning / Alt Hype are correct, this is still a massive population transfer that is wholly unevidenced, unlike the population movements mentioned in the OP.

Watch it, he gets to population transfer. He does cite sanning, but, to say he just copies it is a simplification. He also cites Hilberg etc. He further shows transfers of jews into the Soviet Union through documentation and their disposition.

The evidence presented is at least as strong as what has been presented for jewish expulsions throughout history.

The flight and deportation of polish Jews into USSR pre barbarossa is well evidenced . What isn't documented or testified to is Jews surviving in large numbers in Nazi occupied territory. Please dispense w the generalities and show the evidence, just whatever you think is strongest. This thread is about evidence first and foremost. Maybe it's in the video but at least give me a time stamp. My view so far is that actually the evidence for "gassed" jews surviving is nil. An example would be the Reinhardt Jews believed to have been transferred.

[Stubble]

I'll generate timestamps for you bombs.

So far as the content, what is shown is that even with a 100% death rate for every jew under the German Authorities control, there still wouldn't be 5,000,000 to 6,000,000 dead, because there were not that many jews the German Authorities could have had access to.

Even if Germany had killed every jew it saw, there wouldn't be enough to generate the purported death tolls bandied about.

I'm going to spin this off into it's own thread when I generate the pertinent time stamps and I will link it back here.

I had been just listening to it going over the 'REFUGEES' microfilm, so, this will be cutting into my time.