Challenge for Believers

[HansHill]

I have produced sufficient evidence to prove the level of defections from North Korea and where those people went.

You cannot produce any evidence at all, even wildly incomplete data, to prove mass transports of hundreds of thousands of people back out of the AR camps and resettlement in the east, such that millions were there in 1944.

"I have produced sufficient evidence"

Did you even read the wikipedia article you linked me to? According to your own source, which BTW is itself unsourced, the majority of defectors go to China, and are immediately reprimanded and returned to NK, where we lose all records of them. Unless you quantify these defectors and account for them, then the challenge stands



So to be clear:

I want a quantified list of all NK defectors since the inception of the state, where they ended up, and their ultimate fate. Just admit you can't do this Nessie, you look ridiculous.

[Nessie]

...

So to be clear:

I want a quantified list of all NK defectors since the inception of the state, where they ended up, and their ultimate fate. Just admit you can't do this Nessie, you look ridiculous.

I have already told you that I cannot provide the full details you want. You then dodge that I can evidence what happened to many of the defectors.

You dodge because you know that even some evidence of mass transports of Jews to the east and resettlement there, would be sufficient to cast major doubt on the numbers allegedly killed. But you cannot even do that. Kues tried to pass off early transports of Jews who were evidenced to have been shot at locations such as Rumbula, and second hand rumours of Jews in the east, as if that was sufficient prove mass resettlement. The evidence is of Jews being cleared from those locations and camps and ghettos closing down, which is the opposite of mass resettlement.

[HansHill]

...

So to be clear:

I want a quantified list of all NK defectors since the inception of the state, where they ended up, and their ultimate fate. Just admit you can't do this Nessie, you look ridiculous.

I have already told you that I cannot provide the full details you want. You then dodge that I can evidence what happened to many of the defectors.

You dodge because you know that even some evidence of mass transports of Jews to the east and resettlement there, would be sufficient to cast major doubt on the numbers allegedly killed. But you cannot even do that. Kues tried to pass off early transports of Jews who were evidenced to have been shot at locations such as Rumbula, and second hand rumours of Jews in the east, as if that was sufficient prove mass resettlement. The evidence is of Jews being cleared from those locations and camps and ghettos closing down, which is the opposite of mass resettlement.

Great, we are halfway there.

Now, what exactly is the difficulty you are experiencing in trying to geolocate and quantify this very specific ethnic group of political dissidents against the backdrop of the Cold War and a political hot potato?

Please be precise - what specifically makes this impossible for you?

[Archie]

I've had similar discussions with BA and Nessie before. They think undocumented migration is impossible (even though this is so common that "undocumented immigrant" is an established term, even today in 2025 with modern technology). I remember trying to explain to them that government statistics can be inaccurate/fake/etc and they were constitutionally incapable of imagining this. If they see a stat on google, they For various comparative examples, they would cite anecdotal accounts from popular media or would google government statistics. Government stats, even when they are accurately tabulated, are often not available for all population subsets (race, religion, etc).

Jews represent special demographic problems. They can adopt or discard their Judaism as it suits them. "Jew" can be defined by religion, by ancestry, by self-identification, etc. all of these will give different answers. Different countries used different definitions and of course the USA does not census them at all. This is why there are so many contradictory figures available for Jews. The difficulties are obvious to anyone who has spent even a little time trying to reconcile all of the different statistics.

[bombsaway]

Tell you what bombsaway. You give us whatever you think is better evidence. Use your own judgement and disregard my opinion on this entirely. Others can then make the comparisons themselves and make up their own mind.

What do you think of this? https://chatgpt.com/share/67d4eb5a-f52c ... 104aa53f9d

If you think something is suspect we can zero in and do it manually. I thought your request was kind of absurd, it's obvious that these mass movements are much better evidenced than what happened to the "gassed" Jews.

By the way, I should clarify this. This does not mean Jews who were kept for labor, in known facilities. This does not mean Jews who survived after a certain point in 1944 when extermination activities were halted. Kues knows what is meant by "gassed" Jews , https://codoh.com/library/document/evid ... st-part-1/ He does the study here.

We also know Jews within USSR were being mass "resettled". https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... to_16.html What happened to those is also unknown.

The request to revisionists is not to identify what happened to each and every Jew, I think it's delusional to even think this is the request. The request is to be able to piece together a general narrative about what happened to them, if not gas or shooting. You guys don't have the faintest idea, and this is where the evidence problem comes in. You can say they were interned somewhere, but there's actually no evidence of this, so it's purely speculative. Fireoffice's question is a good one actually, and will illuminate well the problem with your guys theory.

[Nessie]

...

So to be clear:

I want a quantified list of all NK defectors since the inception of the state, where they ended up, and their ultimate fate. Just admit you can't do this Nessie, you look ridiculous.

I have already told you that I cannot provide the full details you want. You then dodge that I can evidence what happened to many of the defectors.

You dodge because you know that even some evidence of mass transports of Jews to the east and resettlement there, would be sufficient to cast major doubt on the numbers allegedly killed. But you cannot even do that. Kues tried to pass off early transports of Jews who were evidenced to have been shot at locations such as Rumbula, and second hand rumours of Jews in the east, as if that was sufficient prove mass resettlement. The evidence is of Jews being cleared from those locations and camps and ghettos closing down, which is the opposite of mass resettlement.

Great, we are halfway there.

Now, what exactly is the difficulty you are experiencing in trying to geolocate and quantify this very specific ethnic group of political dissidents against the backdrop of the Cold War and a political hot potato?

Please be precise - what specifically makes this impossible for you?

A lack of evidence.

I like the way you think you can educate me on how to conduct an investigation. Your loaded question assumes that there is a difficulty in locating everyone in the specific group. But, it is quite easy for me to get locations of North Korean defectors to South Korea, or other countries. The main issue is with China, for which there is evidence they do not accept defectors, and instead North Koreans are in hiding. You have had to refine the task, to find the hardest part of it to achieve.

Millions of Jews resettled in eastern Europe, creating a huge camp and ghetto population in 1944, would leave a lot of evidence. Not only can you not find any evidence of that, the evidence is that by 1944, the last of the ghettos had closed down and A-B's population was smaller than it had been in 1943. That is evidence of a declining Jewish population.

Your attempt at an analogy has fallen apart, because part of the task is easy to establish. Finding evidence of millions of Jews alive in 1944 would be easy to do, if it had happened. You may struggle to identify the locations of all of them, but you would be able to find significant numbers, due to the resources and organisation needed to keep them alive. You fail at that task.

[Nessie]

I've had similar discussions with BA and Nessie before. They think undocumented migration is impossible (even though this is so common that "undocumented immigrant" is an established term, even today in 2025 with modern technology). I remember trying to explain to them that government statistics can be inaccurate/fake/etc and they were constitutionally incapable of imagining this. If they see a stat on google, they For various comparative examples, they would cite anecdotal accounts from popular media or would google government statistics. Government stats, even when they are accurately tabulated, are often not available for all population subsets (race, religion, etc).

Jews represent special demographic problems. They can adopt or discard their Judaism as it suits them. "Jew" can be defined by religion, by ancestry, by self-identification, etc. all of these will give different answers. Different countries used different definitions and of course the USA does not census them at all. This is why there are so many contradictory figures available for Jews. The difficulties are obvious to anyone who has spent even a little time trying to reconcile all of the different statistics.

Jews identified, registered and arrested, are the opposite of undocumented. The Nazi policy towards Jews was to have all of them documented and located, for which they got widespread cooperation from all the countries they occupied or were aligned to, except Denmark and Finland. We can locate those Jews, the Danish fled to Sweden and the Fins remained in Finland. Arrested Jews can be located, due to Nazi camp, ghetto and transport records.

The issue that all revisionists dodge, is where were all of those arrested Jews in 1944? If they were still alive, there would still be many ghettos and camps. But, the Nazis had been recording a dramatically falling Jewish population during the war. By 1944, the last ghetto at Lodz had closed. A-B's population dropped 1943-1944 and by liberation in 1945, it was only 7000. We know, from Nazi records and liberations, how many Jews were marched west and liberated by the Allies. Displaced persons and tracing agencies recorded only a few hundred thousand Jews.

Revisionists have a chronological gap, where they jump to after the war, because 1944 is such a huge problem for them. A highly documented and regimented group of people, for whom there is a lot of evidence of their locations, have disappeared by 1944. Many of them vanish at a few specific camps. There are records of life, from their registration to transportation, and then nothing.

Revisionists cannot even revise the history of those people, and evidence the Nazi department, and operation to keep millions of them alive. Instead, they deny, from denying they existed in the first place, to denying the need to trace them and find out what happened.

[Nazgul]

You dodge because you know that even some evidence of mass transports of Jews to the east and resettlement there, would be sufficient to cast major doubt on the numbers allegedly killed. But you cannot even do that.

I have done that; the intention was to resettle the Jews to the East. Interesting every so called AR camp was exactly on the Ribbentrop-Molotov border, which is why there was a Zollgrenzschutz officer found in the Sobibor pics. It was mentioned that hundreds of thousands of Jews were forced across rivers into Soviet territory. Then there are the trains that stopped at every labour camp for Jews in transit to the border. We know thousands of young men were sent to Bobruisk, the Kaiswerwald, many died of disease but some did come back.

If you wish to dignify those brave souls, do no put their deaths on a false narrative Highland Lord.

[Nessie]

You dodge because you know that even some evidence of mass transports of Jews to the east and resettlement there, would be sufficient to cast major doubt on the numbers allegedly killed. But you cannot even do that.

I have done that; the intention was to resettle the Jews to the East. Interesting every so called AR camp was exactly on the Ribbentrop-Molotov border, which is why there was a Zollgrenzschutz officer found in the Sobibor pics.

They were not exactly on the border and that border did not exist when the AR camps operated.

It was mentioned that hundreds of thousands of Jews were forced across rivers into Soviet territory.

So they were never in Nazi custody, so they are not an issue. The issue is tracing those arrested by the Nazis.

Then there are the trains that stopped at every labour camp for Jews in transit to the border. We know thousands of young men were sent to Bobruisk, the Kaiswerwald, many died of disease but some did come back.

If you wish to dignify those brave souls, do no put their deaths on a false narrative Highland Lord.

You cannot evidence millions of Jews alive in ghettos and camps in 1944.

[Nazgul]

You cannot evidence millions of Jews alive in ghettos and camps in 1944.

One more time, just for you. Camps do not exist without people, heaps of them.

[Nessie]

You cannot evidence millions of Jews alive in ghettos and camps in 1944.

One more time, just for you. Camps do not exist without people, heaps of them.

Evidence the Jewish population of the camps in 1944.

[Nazgul]

Evidence the Jewish population of the camps in 1944.

Find it for us please. Even you can do your bit for truth and reality. As you are well aware, I know, despite Dr Terrys momentous discourse, that the Jewish population of Europe prior to WWII was fudged.

[Nessie]

Evidence the Jewish population of the camps in 1944.

Find it for us please. Even you can do your bit for truth and reality. As you are well aware, I know, despite Dr Terrys momentous discourse, that the Jewish population of Europe prior to WWII was fudged.

This is the same boring, repetitive drivel that you have spouted on numerous previous occasions. It is up to you to evidence millions of Jews still alive in camps and ghetto in 1944.

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/lodz

"In the spring of 1944, the Nazis decided to destroy the Lodz ghetto. By then, Lodz was the last remaining ghetto in German-occupied Poland, with a population of approximately 75,000 Jews in May 1944."

https://www.statista.com/statistics/128 ... d-by-year/

Auschwitz population 1943, 152,000, and in 1944, 114,500.

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/ ... ps-1942-45

"According to SS reports, there were more than 700,000 prisoners left in the camps in January 1945."

Not all prisoners were Jewish, so that is evidence there were only a few hundred thousand Jews left by the end of 1944.

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/ ... -1945-1946

" At the end of 1946 the number of Jewish DPs was estimated at 250,000"

There should have been millions of Jews in the camps and ghettos, liberated and displaced persons, if millions had not been murdered.

[Nazgul]

"In the spring of 1944, the Nazis decided to destroy the Lodz ghetto. By then, Lodz was the last remaining ghetto in German-occupied Poland, with a population of approximately 75,000 Jews in May 1944."

Why was there a ghetto in lodz when the policy was extermination.

"According to SS reports, there were more than 700,000 prisoners left in the camps in January 1945."

SS controlled camps were minor. Most of the Jewish Labour Camps were controlled by the Schmelt und Todt organizations. The SS ran very few, though in the end they held authority to keep order.

Not all prisoners were Jewish, so that is evidence there were only a few hundred thousand Jews left by the end of 1944.

In Jewish Labour Camps all were juden.

I have mentioned many times that they simply walked out at the rout of civilization in the area. Miss X is a great example as well as her colleagues. The guards were demoralized.

After this there is little information. Stop filling the gaps with wanton lies.

[Nessie]

"In the spring of 1944, the Nazis decided to destroy the Lodz ghetto. By then, Lodz was the last remaining ghetto in German-occupied Poland, with a population of approximately 75,000 Jews in May 1944."

Why was there a ghetto in lodz when the policy was extermination.

The policy was, in part, extermination through labour. Ghettos produced a lot of labour.

"According to SS reports, there were more than 700,000 prisoners left in the camps in January 1945."

SS controlled camps were minor. Most of the Jewish Labour Camps were controlled by the Schmelt und Todt organizations. The SS ran very few, though in the end they held authority to keep order.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organisation_Todt

"The period from 1942 until the end of the war, with approximately 1.4 million labourers in the service of the Organisation Todt."

Not all prisoners were Jewish, so that is evidence there were only a few hundred thousand Jews left by the end of 1944.

In Jewish Labour Camps all were juden.

"Organization Todt began its reliance on Gastarbeitnehmer (guest workers), Militärinternierte (military internees), civilian workers, Eastern workers, and "volunteer" POW workers."

I have mentioned many times that they simply walked out at the rout of civilization in the area. Miss X is a great example as well as her colleagues. The guards were demoralized.

After this there is little information. Stop filling the gaps with wanton lies.

I find information quite easily, and it always contradicts your claims