The extant photograph of smoke from Treblinka

[Nessie]

My god, how ever could he have gotten so close? Every day? With a camera?

Or, did he go home and get the camera and come back when the SS left?

The station where Zabecki worked was a 950m walk from the camp. How he had a camera at work that day, we do not know. Maybe he lived nearby and the photo is from his house. You just look for reasons to doubt, as you want to support your belief, that is contrary to the evidence, that TII was not used for mass gassings.

They didn't use gas for delousing, they used steam.

Both were used, mainly gas, at the camps in general.

The clothing and seized property was taken up the tube for delousing in the steam chambers and the detainees were deloused and issued camp clothes in the processing building, they were also assigned to different camps and transited through. Except for those deported east.

That is the theory, where is the evidence? No witness who worked at the camp describes that process.

Now, I've found some testimony that I find credible that there were some killings at the operation Reinhardt camps. Apparently Hitler had mentioned specifically that partisans and people who gave them material support were executed in those camps.

This would be seen by the authorities as an antiterrorism operation.

Determining scale of this is difficult given the time and effort I have to devote to investigation of this claim is limited.

You would refer to this as 'shooting operations' in the 'holocaust of bullets'.

What witness? There are witnesses who report that the section of the camp called the Lazarette at TII was used for shooting people.

[Stubble]

The station where Zabecki worked was a 950m walk from the camp. How he had a camera at work that day, we do not know. Maybe he lived nearby and the photo is from his house. You just look for reasons to doubt, as you want to support your belief, that is contrary to the evidence, that TII was not used for mass gassings.

They didn't use gas for delousing, they used steam.

Both were used, mainly gas, at the camps in general.

The clothing and seized property was taken up the tube for delousing in the steam chambers and the detainees were deloused and issued camp clothes in the processing building, they were also assigned to different camps and transited through. Except for those deported east.

That is the theory, where is the evidence? No witness who worked at the camp describes that process.

Now, I've found some testimony that I find credible that there were some killings at the operation Reinhardt camps. Apparently Hitler had mentioned specifically that partisans and people who gave them material support were executed in those camps.

This would be seen by the authorities as an antiterrorism operation.

Determining scale of this is difficult given the time and effort I have to devote to investigation of this claim is limited.

You would refer to this as 'shooting operations' in the 'holocaust of bullets'.

What witness? There are witnesses who report that the section of the camp called the Lazarette at TII was used for shooting people.

Point number 2) witness testimony from the shoah foundation concerning jews transited through treblinka refer to this scenario. They do not describe being run through the tube naked while being struck with clubs and houded by dogs.

If we grant that steam chambers were used for delousing, which is strongly supported by period documentation (ie reports of people being steamed to death like lobsters etc), then, we are left with these being delousing chambers for property and clothing and with the mass murder assertion being the result of a black propaganda effort.

Point number 3) If I recall correctly, this witness was the mayor of Lublin, who asked hitler directly about the propaganda claims of mass executions at the Reinhardt Camps. Hitler's response was that there were indeed executions there of partisans, but the effort was not a wholesale and indiscriminate killing of jews. I've been digging for the quote and I will source link it here when I find it.

These were 'shooting operations', not executions with gas. The bodies should be around. SOP was to preform these shooting actions in a natural ditch on the side of the road and to cover the dead with earth.

It isn't pretty. It's nasty. It is a nasty bit of ww2.

I find this credible because the guy had no interest in lying. This was said after the war was over, he wasn't in any duress. He was just relaying what he was told. No agenda, no want for revenge, no personal dog in the fight, just 'I asked a question and this was the answer'. Rather matter of fact. It also makes a lot of sense. There were a lot of partisans and sympathizers in that area of the eastern front, and no doubt in my mind many of them were jewish. Himmler makes reference to the killing not just of the parents involved, but also the children. Something horrific and abhorrent. None the less, I find no reason to doubt the truth and validity of the fact, people were killed by the einsatzgruppen in their antiterrorism rear line campaign.

Looking more into the pripyat marshes, I find the same thing likely happened. The SS group leader of the cavalry got shot 3 times in his action there and also earned his close combat clasp in those marshes. You don't get shot and engage in hand to hand fighting killing innocent women and children, that doesn't happen. They were dealing with rebels.

[Nessie]

They didn't use gas for delousing, they used steam.

Both were used, mainly gas, at the camps in general.

The clothing and seized property was taken up the tube for delousing in the steam chambers and the detainees were deloused and issued camp clothes in the processing building, they were also assigned to different camps and transited through. Except for those deported east.

That is the theory, where is the evidence? No witness who worked at the camp describes that process.

Now, I've found some testimony that I find credible that there were some killings at the operation Reinhardt camps. Apparently Hitler had mentioned specifically that partisans and people who gave them material support were executed in those camps.

This would be seen by the authorities as an antiterrorism operation.

Determining scale of this is difficult given the time and effort I have to devote to investigation of this claim is limited.

You would refer to this as 'shooting operations' in the 'holocaust of bullets'.

What witness? There are witnesses who report that the section of the camp called the Lazarette at TII was used for shooting people.

Point number 2) witness testamentary from the shoah foundation concerning jews transited through treblinka refer to this scenario. They do not describe being run through the tube naked while being struck with clubs and houded by dogs.

You are doing what Hunt, Mattogno and others have done, which is cherry pick the testimony of those who describe being selected for work and transported to labour camps, mainly Majdanek. They went to camps south, or west of TII, so they were not transited through to be resettled in the east.

If we grant that steam chambers were used for delousing, which is strongly supported by period documentation (ie reports of people being steamed to death like lobsters etc), then, we are left with these being delousing chambers for property and clothing and with the mass murder assertion being the result of a black propaganda effort.

The evidence, contemporaneous to TII itself, is that it has gas chambers for killing people. You have cherry picked the weakest form of evidence of all, reported rumour and hearsay that made its way into intelligence reports.

Point number 3) If I recall correctly, this witness was the mayor of Lublin, who asked hitler directly about the propaganda claims of mass executions at the Reinhardt Camps. Hitler's response was that there were indeed executions there of partisans, but the effort was not a wholesale and indiscriminate killing of jews. I've been digging for the quote and I will source link it here when I find it.

Korherr stated that he enquired into where Jews went, when he complied his 1943 report for Himmler and he was told they were resettled in the Lublin area. You would think the Mayor of Lublin would know about millions of Jews being resettled there.

These were 'shooting operations', not executions with gas. The bodies should be around. SOP was to preform these shooting actions in a natural ditch on the side of the road and to cover the dead with earth.

It isn't pretty. It's nasty. It is a nasty bit of ww2.

The Einsazgruppen, not AR, were responsible for shooting operations. They reported partisans, Communists and Jews as separate groups. That is not to say no Jew was a partisan or a Communist, but it means that there were Jews who were neither.

https://holocausthistory.site/1942-12-2 ... ur-months/

"On December 29, 1942, Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler delivered a report to Adolf Hitler, mentioning the execution of 363,211 Jews within only four months, between August and November of that year. Himmler’s report, known as report no. 51 to the Führer on Bandit Fighting, provides one of the clearest examples of high-level documentation of the Holocaust."

I find this credible because the guy had no interest in lying. This was said after the war was over, he wasn't in any duress. He was just relaying what he was told. No agenda, no want for revenge, no personal dog in the fight, just 'I asked a question and this was the answer'. Rather matter of fact. It also makes a lot of sense.

That makes him a credible witness, but does it mean he is being truthful and accurate? Corroboration is the best, most reliable method for determining truthfulness and accuracy. Is your witness corroborated?

There were a lot of partisans and sympathizers in that area of the eastern front, and no doubt in my mind many of them were jewish. Himmler makes reference to the killing not just of the parents involved, but also the children. Something horrific and abhorrent. None the less, I find no reason to doubt the truth and validity of the fact, people were killed by the einsatzgruppen in their antiterrorism rear line campaign.

Looking more into the pripyat marshes, I find the same thing likely happened. The SS group leader of the cavalry got shot 3 times in his action there and also earned his close combat clasp in those marshes. You don't get shot and engage in hand to hand fighting killing innocent women and children, that doesn't happen. They were dealing with rebels.

Why would the EG be tasked with making the eastern territories, seized from the Soviets, that had large Jewish populations, Jew free, for AR to then send millions of Jews there to be resettled?

[Stubble]

Both were used, mainly gas, at the camps in general.



That is the theory, where is the evidence? No witness who worked at the camp describes that process.



What witness? There are witnesses who report that the section of the camp called the Lazarette at TII was used for shooting people.

Point number 2) witness testamentary from the shoah foundation concerning jews transited through treblinka refer to this scenario. They do not describe being run through the tube naked while being struck with clubs and houded by dogs.

You are doing what Hunt, Mattogno and others have done, which is cherry pick the testimony of those who describe being selected for work and transported to labour camps, mainly Majdanek. They went to camps south, or west of TII, so they were not transited through to be resettled in the east.

If we grant that steam chambers were used for delousing, which is strongly supported by period documentation (ie reports of people being steamed to death like lobsters etc), then, we are left with these being delousing chambers for property and clothing and with the mass murder assertion being the result of a black propaganda effort.

The evidence, contemporaneous to TII itself, is that it has gas chambers for killing people. You have cherry picked the weakest form of evidence of all, reported rumour and hearsay that made its way into intelligence reports.

Point number 3) If I recall correctly, this witness was the mayor of Lublin, who asked hitler directly about the propaganda claims of mass executions at the Reinhardt Camps. Hitler's response was that there were indeed executions there of partisans, but the effort was not a wholesale and indiscriminate killing of jews. I've been digging for the quote and I will source link it here when I find it.

Korherr stated that he enquired into where Jews went, when he complied his 1943 report for Himmler and he was told they were resettled in the Lublin area. You would think the Mayor of Lublin would know about millions of Jews being resettled there.

These were 'shooting operations', not executions with gas. The bodies should be around. SOP was to preform these shooting actions in a natural ditch on the side of the road and to cover the dead with earth.

It isn't pretty. It's nasty. It is a nasty bit of ww2.

The Einsazgruppen, not AR, were responsible for shooting operations. They reported partisans, Communists and Jews as separate groups. That is not to say no Jew was a partisan or a Communist, but it means that there were Jews who were neither.

https://holocausthistory.site/1942-12-2 ... ur-months/

"On December 29, 1942, Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler delivered a report to Adolf Hitler, mentioning the execution of 363,211 Jews within only four months, between August and November of that year. Himmler’s report, known as report no. 51 to the Führer on Bandit Fighting, provides one of the clearest examples of high-level documentation of the Holocaust."

I find this credible because the guy had no interest in lying. This was said after the war was over, he wasn't in any duress. He was just relaying what he was told. No agenda, no want for revenge, no personal dog in the fight, just 'I asked a question and this was the answer'. Rather matter of fact. It also makes a lot of sense.

That makes him a credible witness, but does it mean he is being truthful and accurate? Corroboration is the best, most reliable method for determining truthfulness and accuracy. Is your witness corroborated?

There were a lot of partisans and sympathizers in that area of the eastern front, and no doubt in my mind many of them were jewish. Himmler makes reference to the killing not just of the parents involved, but also the children. Something horrific and abhorrent. None the less, I find no reason to doubt the truth and validity of the fact, people were killed by the einsatzgruppen in their antiterrorism rear line campaign.

Looking more into the pripyat marshes, I find the same thing likely happened. The SS group leader of the cavalry got shot 3 times in his action there and also earned his close combat clasp in those marshes. You don't get shot and engage in hand to hand fighting killing innocent women and children, that doesn't happen. They were dealing with rebels.

Why would the EG be tasked with making the eastern territories, seized from the Soviets, that had large Jewish populations, Jew free, for AR to then send millions of Jews there to be resettled?

1) well, the point remains, they weren't run up the tube and gassed with a submarine engine man.

/shrug

2) show me documentation of homicidal gas chambers at treblinka that is contemporary with the camps operation that isn't black propaganda. Closest you can get is steam chambers that were used to steam people alive from propaganda sources. In addition to the quicklime propaganda etc.

They used tiled steam chambers for delousing man.

3) Korherr said 'east' and 'around Lublin not 'in Lublin'.

4) no, it means that jewish partisans/communists were counted in a separate group as a separate group, not that they were killed for being jewish.

5) truthfulness and accuracy can be two different things. I'll grant that I need to find more corroborative evidence for his assertion. I have no doubt when he posed the question that was the answer he got. It is the accuracy that is the question. Again, where I am standing now, I think it is more accurate than 'the bodies were all burned on bbq grilles with tiny amounts of wood because bodies burn each other without fuel'.

6) for vetting and processing the jews. An area being free of jews does not mean an area where there will never be jews. It also doesn't mean 'we killed all the jews' it just means, there are no more jews here now.

This is off topic though, and may merit a new thread. If you want to explore this further, perhaps there is a more suitable existing thread, barring that, perhaps you want to make a new thread.

This thread is supposed to be about the smoke from treblinka in the only extant photograph we have.

I will admit that I contributed to some topic drift here. At the same time, I feel it is important for us to stick to the topic at hand.

Basically, why didn't anyone else ever take any picture of any smoke from any pyre coming from treblinka? Cameras existed. There was at least 1 camera in the area, and that camera had film, apparently.

That begs the question, why only the one picture from exactly not a burning corpse pyre.

[Nessie]

....
1) well, the point remains, they weren't run up the tube and gassed with a submarine engine man.

/shrug

That is what is evidenced to have happened and no revisionist has been able to evidence their various theories about what did.

2) show me documentation of homicidal gas chambers at treblinka that is contemporary with the camps operation that isn't black propaganda. Closest you can get is steam chambers that were used to steam people alive from propaganda sources. In addition to the quicklime propaganda etc.

They used tiled steam chambers for delousing man.

No documents survive from TII. The witness evidence is corroborated by physical and circumstantial evidence, which is nore reliable than hersay and rumours.

3) Korherr said 'east' and 'around Lublin not 'in Lublin'.

I am quite sure the Mayor of Lublin would know if millions of Jews were settled around the city.

4) no, it means that jewish partisans/communists were counted in a separate group as a separate group, not that they were killed for being jewish.

No, the EG reports have partisans, Communists and Jews as three separate groups.

5) truthfulness and accuracy can be two different things. I'll grant that I need to find more corroborative evidence for his assertion. I have no doubt when he posed the question that was the answer he got. It is the accuracy that is the question. Again, where I am standing now, I think it is more accurate than 'the bodies were all burned on bbq grilles with tiny amounts of wood because bodies burn each other without fuel'.

I know it is more accurate that they were burnt on pyres, started with wood, that once the corpses had caught fire, they continued to burn with needing to keep adding wood, because of the evidence, from witnesses, similar pyres at Dresden and Ohrdruf and human fat, like any animal fat, is combustable.

6) for vetting and processing the jews. An area being free of jews does not mean an area where there will never be jews. It also doesn't mean 'we killed all the jews' it just means, there are no more jews here now.

I did not claim it meant anything other than it means there are no more Jews here now. Why would AR send millions of Jews to the east, when the EG were clearing the east to make it free of Jews?

This is off topic though, and may merit a new thread. If you want to explore this further, perhaps there is a more suitable existing thread, barring that, perhaps you want to make a new thread.

This thread is supposed to be about the smoke from treblinka in the only extant photograph we have.

I will admit that I contributed to some topic drift here. At the same time, I feel it is important for us to stick to the topic at hand.

Basically, why didn't anyone else ever take any picture of any smoke from any pyre coming from treblinka? Cameras existed. There was at least 1 camera in the area, and that camera had film, apparently.

That begs the question, why only the one picture from exactly not a burning corpse pyre.

I would suggest that likely answers are, poor rural Poles had few cameras, they knew if they got caught, they would be shot and maybe there are other photos that we do not know about. Previously unknown photos of Sobibor recent appeared.

You do realise that the existence of one photo is not evidence of a conspiracy, or that TII cannot have been a death camp.

[Stubble]

Dude, you are thick. The people that went through treblinka do not describe what you call evidenced.

Your definition of evidence is arbitrary and a moving goal post.

You opinion doesn't change survivor testimony man, it just does.

The rest, like I said, make a new thread.

This one is about the extant photograph of smoke from treblinka.

[Nazgul]

I find it odd that the only photograph of smoke coming from treblinka is from the revolt. Anyone care to posit why? Obviously somebody that worked for the railroad had a camera, and thought photographing the smoke was important enough to photograph it.

Why wasn't the polish government in exile able to get a photo of the smoke from the pyres? Why didn't anyone else ever snap a picture?

Odd, ain't it?

The photo was taken by the station master of Treblinka, Frank Zabecki. As you mentioned it is very odd that the only picture of smoke is at the time of the revolt. Considering the nonsense Zabecki spouted ( testimony) regarding trainloads of Jews to be exterminated, and burned, one would think that he would have evidenced this with more photos. Surely there was enough smoke from all the burning of corpses. He was a spy, a secret soldier in the underground Armia Krajowa (AK).

[Fred Ziffel]

Here is an excellent Rumble video on outside cremation related issues at Treblinka, Sobibor and Belzec.
15min run time. Part of Dean's work is towards the end. Highly recommended

Link:

[Nazgul]

Zabecki was a station master, who was asked by spies to assist them. Zabecki was not himself a spy.

He was an "asset" for some intelligence organization. If you are asked to assist spies you become one yourself if you agree. You become a "traitor".
During the German occupation of Poland in World War II, Ząbecki worked as a dispatcher for the Deutsche Reichsbahn; he also became a secret soldier in the underground Armia Krajowa (AK), collecting classified data and reporting to the Polish resistance on the Holocaust transports that went to Treblinka extermination camp. ...wiki

While not an intelligence officer, his activities makes him a "spy". The only time he took photos of the alleged smoke was when the building were burning, not the bodies claimed by Wiernik (also a spy).

The time of the uprising would have had the area swarming with all manner of SS and Police, in fact the worst time to take an image, with security personnel on heightened alert.
If this "asset" had taken photos of the alleged human pyres over a period of time, I doubt if many here would doubt the integrity of the holocaust claims at Treblinka.

This fits in with Marian Olszuks observation that nothing untoward occurred at the camp; if there pyres of bodies burning, the people in Treblinka village, Wolka Okrąglik or Kosow lacki would have noticed. The town elders said nothing of this, except to say there was a camp near Kosow lacki.

If Zabecki had taken images of smoke correlating with the transports he recorded, I doubt if this conversation would be taking place. Perhaps the real TII was the TIII at Czerwony bor (sounds like Sobibor) which Gen Gross Roweki had planned to attack. That exact site in the forest is now a prison.

[Stubble]

^ 100% correct