Callafangers' statements of fact / rebuttable presumptions about Belzec and Sobibor

[Keen]

LOOK AT CALLAFANGERS RUN!

Core samples.

That show what?

Callafangers:

apparent ash, burnt remains, and lime

Apparent?



Apparent ash of what?

Define what you mean when you say "ash"'

Are you insinuating that the bones and teeth of 250,00 jews were ground down into a fine powder as fine as wood ash?

Apparent burnt remains of what?

Where are the bone fragments? Where are the teeth? Where are the remains in a state of decay?

Keen:

Taken from what "huge mass grave"?

Callagangers cravenly refused to answer that question.

In what "huge mass grave" were those core samples taken Callafangers?

Andrzej Kola:

We uncovered seven mass graves... In them there were charred human remains and under them remains in a state of decay.

Callafangers:

I think some have been fair to point out that there are certain excavations which most researchers (even revisionists) do not dispute having actually taken place (e.g. Kola at Sobibor...), with significant corpse quantities found... at Sobibor, there have been hundreds of core samples, dozens of which contain at least some amount of corpse material... most people are going to find core sample arguments (and extrapolation) compelling.

I take some of their reports on corpses or corpse material found to be possibly sincere, and adjust my estimates accordingly.

First Callafangers, show us photos of core samples that substantiates Kola / your allegation that charred human remains, remains in a state of decay and corpse material were uncovered from a "huge mass grave" in Sobibor.

Second, fill in the blanks for us:

Based on all of the evidence that I know exists,
especially all of the physical evidence uncovered by Yoram Haimi's archaeological excavations
( https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=19148#p19148 ),
and all of the geophysical data collected
( https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=18937#p18937 ),
and all of the physical evidence that Kola uncovered via core samples ("dozens of which contained at least some amount of corpse material" - i.e. - "charred human remains and remains in a state of decay")
and these photos of unanalyzed but apparent ash from an unknown source & apparent burnt remains from an unknown source in core samples taken from unknown locations:



I believe that it can be logically and rationally estimated that the following "huge mass graves" contain / contained - NO LESS THAN - the following amount of human remains:

"Huge mass grave" #1: ?

"Huge mass grave" #2: ?

"Huge mass grave" #3: ?

"Huge mass grave" #4: ?

"Huge mass grave" #5: ?

"Huge mass grave" #6: ?

"Huge mass grave" #7: ?

"Huge mass grave" #22 (The "Mound of Ashes"): ?

TOTAL: ?

What are you waiting for Callafangers?

What are you so afraid of?

BTW Callafangers, Haimi alleges that this is what finely ground human bones look like:

Photo of Sobibors "huge mass grave" #20



Description: Sunk to a depth of ca. 1 meter, whitened human bones that had undergone burning were discovered mixed with gray soil.

Callafangers, show us the GPR scan of this "huge mass grave" before it was disturbed.

[Keen]

Callafangers, here is a photo of all the teeth that I am aware of that were alleged to have been discoverd within the boundary of the Sobibor camp.



Callafangers, in total, how many single, disconnected human teeth have been tangibly discovered within Sobibors 24 alleged "huge mass graves"?

[Keen]

Andrzej Kola:

We uncovered seven mass graves with an average depth of five meters. In them there were charred human remains and under them remains in a state of decay.

Callafangers:

I take some of their reports on corpses or corpse material found to be possibly sincere, and adjust my estimates accordingly... photographs at least increase the probability that a sincere research effort has taken place..

Well then:


Callafangers, Here is a photo of Kola's grave #1:



How much " charred human remains" and "remains in a state of decay" would you estimate that we are looking at?

How many teeth?

Callafangers, Here is a photo of Kola's grave #2:



How much " charred human remains" and "remains in a state of decay" would you estimate that we are looking at?

How many teeth?

Callafangers, Here is a photo of Kola's grave #3:



How much " charred human remains" and "remains in a state of decay" would you estimate that we are looking at?

How many teeth?

Callafangers, Here is a photo of Kola's grave #4:



How much " charred human remains" and "remains in a state of decay" would you estimate that we are looking at?

How many teeth?

Callafangers, Here is a photo of Kola's grave 5#:



How much " charred human remains" and "remains in a state of decay" would you estimate that we are looking at?

How many teeth?

Callafangers, Here is a photo of Kola's grave 6#:



How much " charred human remains" and "remains in a state of decay" would you estimate that we are looking at?

How many teeth?

Callafangers, Here is a photo of Kola's grave 7#:



How much " charred human remains" and "remains in a state of decay" would you estimate that we are looking at?

How many teeth?
[/quote]

[Keen]

This aligns with what the authors claim in their written reports

So you're saying that there was a convergence of evidence then, huh?

These do not prove the DNA of the burnt remains, of course, but the photographs at least increase the probability that a sincere research effort has taken place.

Like this one:





And then Callagangers says this about me:

You, on the other hand, do not think this far. You essentially say, "how many humans' worth of photographed corpse remains have been shown to us"?

No Callafangers, I say photographs increase the probability that a sincere research effort HAS NOT taken place.

And, I say this:

KEENS FUNDAMENTAL STATEMENT OF FACT / REBUTTABLE PRESUMPTION ABOUT SOBIBOR:

It is alleged in orthodox historiography that; during WW II, the bones and burnt remains of 250,000 jews (Along with their 8 million teeth.) were buried in numerous “huge mass graves” within the boundary of the Sobibor camp. It is also alleged by the archaeologists, forensic investigators and geophysicists who investigated the camp, that their investigations scientifically proved the existence of the physical evidence that proved the orthodox Sobibor holocaust story really was true. However, despite all the deceptive allegations to the contrary, the truth is, the largest (in terms of quantity of remains) of the 24 "huge mass graves" in question that are fraudulently alleged to have been “archaeologically / forensically / scientifically proven” to currently exist at this site, in which verified human remains have been uncovered / tangibly located via sincere research efforts, contained the remains of - ONLY SIX PEOPLE.

Can you rebut it Callafangers?

And how can you pretend that a "sincere research effort" took place, when the conclusion of the "investigators" was that they had "archaeologically / forensically / scientifically proved" that the remains of 250,000 jews really are buried within the Sobibor camp, and they maliciously conceal data from their "sincere investigation"?

One would have to be mentally ill / retarded to pretend / believe such a thing.

We are still waiting for your statement of fact / rebuttable presumption that reflects your beliefs about Sobibor:

https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=18637#p18637

What are you waiting for Callafangers?

What are you so afraid of?

[Keen]

BTW Callafangers, I also say this:

It is an irrefutable fact that the so-called "jewish holocaust of WW II"
DID NOT HAPPEN as originally alleged.

There is NO clear, credible or convincing evidence that the remains
of any more than 6 people have EVER been proven to exist / existed
in any of Sobibors 24 fraudulently alleged "huge mass graves." NONE

Sobibors "Ash Mound" has never been proven to contain an iota of human remains.

Sobibor memorial designer / "artist-historian" Lukasz Mieszkowski admitted
that Sobibors "burial mound" is "MADE OF SOIL NOT CONTAINING ASHES."

The construction of the so-called "ash mound" and the so-called "archaeological / forensic / geophysical / scientific investigations" of Sobibor were psyops - big-lies / fraudulent charades designed to create cognitive illusions.

The fact that the so-called "forensic investigators" of Sobibor continue to conceal the data from their sham "scientific investigations" - is ipso facto proof of fraud.

If the physical evidence for a claim that - HAS TO EXIST - in order for the
claim to be true - DOES NOT EXIST - then that claim is obviously false.

THERE WAS NO SOBIBOR hOLOCAUST.

The majority of those who call themselves "revisionists" are grossly hypocritical cowards who cravenly refuse to even try to defend their unsubstantiated belief that jews really were buried in mass graves within the boundary of the Sobibor camp.

Revisionists cannot produce a single photo of a core sample from Sobibor in which charred human remains or human remains in a state fo decay can be identified.

[fireofice]

Get his ass Keen. Callafangers OWNED for not denying the holocaust STRONGLY ENOUGH!!! He will never recover from this.

If you don't deny literally everything from documents, audio (which have clearly been FAKED), ect. then you are not a TRUE denier. You may as well be a limp wristed half way denier like David Irving! In fact, did the Third Reich and World War 2 even happen? Did Hitler even exist? No Hitler, no holocaust. Can't get around that.

[Keen]

Get his ass Keen. Callafangers OWNED for not denying the holocaust STRONGLY ENOUGH!!!

No fireofice, Callafangers is getting OWNED because he cravenly refuses to answer simple questions.

He says this:

I think some have been fair to point out that there are certain excavations which most researchers (even revisionists) do not dispute having actually taken place (e.g. Kola at Sobibor...), with significant corpse quantities found

But cravenly runs away from this:

https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=19144#p19144

And this:

https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=19148#p19148

And especially this:

https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=19081#p19081

Callafangers is not being asked to deny anything. He is being challenged to defend his beliefs, and he is failing misserably, and totally embarrassing "revisionists" in the process. And he cravenly refuses to state his beliefs as a statement of fact that can be defined as a rebuttable presumption. He is however, childishly pretending that this:



Is a photo of human remains, further embarrassing himself and his fellow "revisionists."

BTW fireofice, can you point out any "charred human remains" or "remains in a state of decay" in those core samples?

How many teeth do you see?

Can you tell us from which "huge mass grave" of Sobibor did Kola allege that he "uncovered" powdered human remains?

[Keen]

Please point me (a direct link) to any conversation where you have directly addressed the matter of core samples and how/whether they can be extrapolated to any particular quantity or consistency of remains at any AR camp... most people are going to find core sample arguments (and extrapolation) compelling.

OK:

https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=19161#p19161

https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=19183#p19183

Callafangers:

Keen, nobody is afraid of you.

Also Callafangers:



And why is Callafangers afraid to answer this one simple question:

Is it - True. - or - False. - that; at least one grave containing the remains of at least one person has been archaeologically / forensically / scientifically discovered within the boundary of the Sobibor camp - ??

[Keen]

As for a more specific breakdown, here you go (for Sobibor)... What's less absurd is the belief that core samples were in fact taken and at least roughly reflect the extremely-vague descriptions of material reported in each... If we interpret the records of corpse remains as actually being so, this can easily bring us into a reasonable extrapolation of some tens of thousands of total corpses (but likely no more than ~15,000 or so, and definitely fewer than ~40-50,000, all things considered). It could be even less than ~10,000, depending on how often Kola's team mistook other burnt/charred material for corpse material.

Callafangers, what is "definitely fewer than ~40-50,000" divided by 7?

What is "easily tens of thousands" divided by 7?

What is "less than 10,000 divided by 7?

Let's see those allegations expressed in a statement of fact written in a way that can be difined as a rebuttable presumption.

Thank you Callafangers, you truly are the gift that keeps on giving.

[Eye of Zyclone]

Core samples.


Core-Sobibor-Kola.jpg

For info, grey and black layers of soil are not necessarily layers of ashes. Hydric soils also display grey and black layers.

Hydric soil

Hydric soil is soil which is permanently or seasonally saturated by water, resulting in anaerobic conditions, as found in wetlands.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydric_soil

Gleysol

A gleysol or gley soil is a hydric soil that unless drained is saturated with groundwater for long enough to develop a characteristic gleyic colour pattern. The pattern is essentially made up of reddish, brownish, or yellowish colours at surfaces of soil particles and/or in the upper soil horizons mixed with greyish/blueish colours inside the peds and/or deeper in the soil.


A stagnohumic gleysoil in a forest plantation in Mid-Wales, United Kingdom.
The organic-rich topsoil is over a grey and orange mottled subsoil developed in glacial till ("boulder clay").

The term gley, or glei, is derived from Ukrainian: глей, romanized: hlei, and was introduced into scientific terminology in 1905 by the Ukrainian scientist Georgy Vysotsky.[1]

Gleysols occur within a wide range of unconsolidated materials, mainly fluvial, marine and lacustrine sediments of Pleistocene or Holocene age, having basic to acidic mineralogy. They are found in depression areas and low landscape positions with shallow groundwater.

They exhibit a greenish-blue-grey soil color because of anoxic wetland conditions. On exposure, as the iron in the soil oxidizes colors are transformed to a mottled pattern of reddish, yellow or orange patches. During soil formation (gleying), the oxygen supply in the soil profile is restricted due to soil moisture at saturation. Anaerobic micro-organisms support cellular respiration by using alternatives to free oxygen as electron acceptors to support cellular respiration. Where anaerobic organisms reduce ferric oxide to ferrous oxide, the reduced mineral compounds produce the typical gleysoil color.


Ferrous oxide (FeO)

Groundwater gleysoils develop where drainage is poor because the water table (phreatic surface) is high, whilst surface-water gleying occurs when precipitation input at the surface does not drain freely through the ground. A reducing environment exists in the saturated layers, which become mottled greyish-blue or greyish-brown due to its ferrous iron and organic matter content.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleysol

Black layer in turf: Causes and management

A look at the scientific research on black layer, its causes, and cultural practices for countering it.

June 2016 | William L. Berndt, Ph.D.


Black layer from a creeping bentgrass putting green in northern Michigan. Photos by William Berndt

What is black layer?

Physically, black layer is an accumulation of metal sulfides in the pore space of soil. Metal sulfides form when hydrogen sulfide (H2S) reacts with metals such as iron (Fe2+), producing iron sulfide (FeS). Sulfur-reducing bacteria (SRB) generate hydrogen sulfide during respiration.

What makes soils anaerobic?

Waterlogging or excessive soil microbial activity can induce anaerobic conditions in soil. Waterlogging from excessive rainfall or irrigation physically restricts oxygen diffusion into soil (Table 1). Development of physical layers in the root zone from topdressing can also hinder oxygen diffusion. Other factors that influence oxygen diffusion are soil pore size distribution, organic matter content and compaction. Too many fines in greens mix and too much organic matter can increase soil’s water-holding capacity. Compaction, which is the consolidation of pore spaces, can directly restrict both drainage and gas exchange. If oxygen diffusion becomes inhibited for any reason, then microbial respiration can deplete available soil oxygen within a few hours. Irrigating judiciously, ensuring that drainage is adequate, alleviating compaction via cultivation, and paying close attention to greens mix properties are vital considerations for preventing low redox potential.

https://gcmonline.com/course/environmen ... layer-turf

[bombsaway]

I think the only reason that Callafangers and Archie believe the studies were "real" is that they think the results themselves are damning to orthodoxy. Kola's studies are actually evidence of 'no Holocaust'. Given the starkness of the results, how wildly they deviate from what one would expect if you made a dig (in their minds at least), it is pretty senseless that orthodoxy, conducting their hoax at the very sites, would put out consciously fabricated studies like this. Minuscule grave space and more importantly only threadbare assertions of human remains in the graves. So they think.

[Callafangers]

For info, grey and black layers of soil are not necessarily layers of ashes. Hydric soils also display grey and black layers.

Fair point. There's no question we are at the "mercy" of the team that did the digging/drilling, having to decide whether or not we can trust they did so with sincere intentions, appropriate competence, and documented their findings accurately. There is a lot that can be said about the contents of the reports but I lean toward the interpretation that they were most likely well-intentioned. And as it turns out, their findings align well with non-incriminating corpse quantities reflecting Sobibor as a common-sense economic and disinfestation border/transit facility.

It is always interesting to me that everyone seems to acknowledge that the ghettos generally didn't have their own crematory facilities. We are all just supposed to assume the many thousands of corpses (from disease, etc.) were buried somewhere nearby, maybe because 'Shmuel Bergstein' said so, in some instances (but not all)... Meanwhile, outdoor pyres and typhus control measures were already taking place at nearby border facilities and trains from the ghettos were already being sent en route toward these border stations. Thus, findings of thousands or even low-mid tens of thousands of corpses at the 'Reinhardt' sites (if being charitable) is perfectly within a revisionist interpretation, no further minimization needed.

All of that said, yes, the reports (e.g. Kola) are weak, vague, and with all of the political (and ideological) motives and liars surrounding the 'Holocaust', it is very much justified to expect much more before concluding on too specific a range of actual corpses here. We know with certainty that property (furniture, clothing, papers, etc.) were being burned and buried en masse.

[Stubble]

I think Keen has admirably demonstrated that the various teams have been composed of delusional frauds.

[Callafangers]

I think Keen has admirably demonstrated that the various teams have been composed of delusional frauds.

They do indeed wear "Holocaust goggles", as does most of society. They may be comfortable with generalizations, make hasty and unsupported conclusions, etc. But it would require they are calculated, well-coordinated liars for there to be zero indication of corpse material in these excavations. Human corpse material in wax-fat transformation is reported explicitly in many of the core samples, for example. Corpses in wax-fat transformation have obvious features of human bodies -- skin, hair, etc. Would you suggest this did not exist at all, and that the dozens of core samples explicitly stated as including this in fact did not?

I'm open to this possibility but I don't think most "normies" would be.

[Stubble]

I believe your response to the image I pulled from one the Sobibor digs, of grave 5, was 'too many farts for revisionists to explain'.

There were no bodies in wax fat transformation.

Using Hanlon's Razor and trying to be charitable, I made the argument you just made. Basically, 'The data was misinterpreted from the bore studies by Kola because his holocaust goggles are too tight'.

Then Keen leaned in with what has been said about the digs, by Kola and others, and their blatant misrepresentations of what has been found.

I must concede, fraud indeed applies as a descriptor. I apologize for being the one to tell you this, and I didn't want to believe it either. Unfortunately, it is the truth. They are lying.

/shrug