Callafangers' statements of fact / rebuttable presumptions about Belzec and Sobibor

[Keen]

Perhaps it is time for you [Keen] to pen a 'Statements of Facts' post for posterity and to inspire robust debate.

I second this notion...

Callafangers:

At Sobibor and Belzec, Mattogno estimates corpses at each location in the low thousands or even low tens of thousands. My own estimates are in a similar range. I would concede a maximum of some ~40-50,000 at Sobibor, somewhat less at Belzec.

Callafangers:

There have been hundreds of core samples [at Belzec and Sobibor], dozens of which contain at least some amount of corpse material.

I think some have been fair to point out that there are certain excavations which most researchers (even revisionists) do not dispute having actually taken place (e.g. Kola at Sobibor/Belzec and Judge Lukaszkiewicz at Treblinka), with significant corpse quantities found... While it's true that the excavations by Kola, Judge Lukaszkiewicz, and others have been wholly inadequate for the scale of what is claimed at these locations, it seems just as untrue to claim, for example, that only a total of six (6) corpses have ever been unearthed at Treblinka [Note: I have never made this claim.]

Callafangers, let's see a statement of fact that can be defined as a rebuttable presumption for both Belzec and Sobibor that reflect your belief that there are the remains of about 50,000 jews buried in "huge mass graves" in each camp. One for each camp please.

Remember, you will be under cross examination after, so you will not have the luxury of running away from questions, like you are so wont to do.

[Keen]

Callafangers:

At Sobibor and Belzec... I would concede a maximum of some ~40-50,000 at Sobibor, somewhat less at Belzec.

Just a reminder Callafangers, when developing your statement of fact / rebuttable presumption, you will need to state a precise number, stated as "no less than."

Same with this:

There have been hundreds of core samples [at Belzec and Sobibor], dozens of which contain at least some amount of corpse material.

Remember, precise numbers.

And don't forget that you have to be 100% accurate. It cannot contain any slop like this:

it seems just as untrue to claim, for example, that only a total of six (6) corpses have ever been unearthed at Treblinka

[Callafangers]

Callafangers, let's see a statement of fact that can be defined as a rebuttable presumption for both Belzec and Sobibor that reflect your belief that there are the remains of about 50,000 jews buried in "huge mass graves" in each camp. One for each camp please.

Remember, you will be under cross examination after, so you will not have the luxury of running away from questions, like you are so wont to do.

No one is running away for the simple fact that your position is not especially intimidating. Lol.

You're also misrepresenting what I said. Do you want to try again? What were my actual words, regarding what I believe to be a possible range of actual corpses underneath each camp? Please quote exactly, since it is relevant to this thread.

[Keen]

You're also misrepresenting what I said. Do you want to try again?

Sure. Let's give you the chance to state your belief in a way that can't be misrepresented and can be used as a foundation for the development of your rebuttable presumption.

Answer the following simple questioins:

I believe, based on the evidence that I have seen, that the remains of no less than _?_ people currently lie within the boundary of the Sobibor camp.

I believe, based on the evidence that I have seen, that no less than _?_ graves (mass and single combined) have been archaeologically / forensically / scientifically discovered within the boundary of the Sobibor camp.

Again, if you need any help, go here: https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=16876#p16876

[Keen]

Well, it looks like Callafangers is showing his true colors by cravenly refusing to answer the two simple questions I asked him in the previous post. Or maybe he just doesn't have the mental capacity to handle two questions at once? Let's simplify things to the point that a retarded 4th grader could understand and see if Callafangers can grow a pair and answer it:

Callafangers, is it - True. - or - False. - that; at least one grave containing the remains of at least one person has been archaeologically / forensically / scientifically discovered within the boundary of the Sobibor camp - ?

[Keen]

No one is running away

Except you and Nessie.

Callafangers:

Keen, this above is the exact kind of unproductive shenanigans that you've been called out on.

Maneuvering you into a corner and watching you squirm is a "shenanigan"?

[Keen]

Callafangers:

Lol, I can take the heat.

I guess by that you mean you create a cooling breeze by cravenly running away from simple questions huh?

How's your statements of fact / rebuttable presumption about Sobibor comming along Callafangers?

BTW Callafangers, why are you so afraid of answering this question:

Is it - True. - or - False. - that; at least one grave containing the remains of at least one person has been archaeologically / forensically / scientifically discovered within the boundary of the Sobibor camp - ??

[Keen]

Callafangers:

What I am interested in is whether any of these locations have any actual/excavated corpse material findings... at Sobibor, there have been hundreds of core samples, dozens of which contain at least some amount of corpse material.

...

You're asking for precise quantification which we both know has not been achieved, hence it is pointless to ask.

Let me demonstrate how easy it is to bitch-slap and corner Callafangers with this simple fill in the blank question:

I believe, based on all of the evidence that I have seen, that no less than _?_ of Sobibors 24 alleged "huge mass graves" contain / contained at least an iota of human remains.

Information about the 24 alleged "huge mass graves" can be found here: https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=18883#p18883

Now let's let Callafangers demonstrate his level of courage, integrity and character.

[Keen]

Thank you Callafangers for cravenly dodging yet another simple question and demonstrating your level of courage, integrity and character. (See previous 5 posts above.)

Now let's let Callafangers demonstrate his level of intelligence.

Callafangers:

You're asking for precise quantification which we both know has not been achieved, hence it is pointless to ask.

Precise quantification of WHAT Callafangers?

Callafangers, can you tell us, what KIND of human remains has actually been located in each of Sobibors 24 "huge mass graves"?

Based on all of the evidence that I know exists, I believe that archaeologists have actually discovered actual human remains in the following form in these "huge mass graves":

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22 (the "ash mound")
23 ("object" 6094)
24 ("object" 6095)

BTW Callafangers, here is a photo of all the teeth that I am aware of that were alleged to have been discoverd within the boundary of the Sobibor camp. Would you say that the number of teeth alleged to have been discovered at Sobibor has, or can be, precisely quantified?



Callafangers, would you please tell us what happened to the other 8 million teeth?

Yoram Haimi:

Our investigations [of "grave" #4] uncovered over 2000 bone fragments.

quantify
: to determine, express, or measure the quantity of

Callafafangers, would it have been possible for Haimi to to give us a more precise number of bone fragments? Do you think he could have weighed those "over 2000 bone fragments" that he allegedly uncovered in "huge mass grave" #4 if he really wanted to?

Callagangers - what would you guess that those alleged "over 2000 bone fragments" weigh? Less than 7 pounds?

[Callafangers]

This is bizarre. To be honest, I haven't read the above. I don't think it's productive for us to debate given that we ultimately share the same conclusion and there's zero chance of you coming around to reason. You simply don't engage with certain pieces of evidence (e.g. Kola findings). We have a fundamental disagreement on whether these findings are meaningful enough to be extrapolated in any way. If you address this directly, I might be willing to engage but I am not interested in your list of questions and combative nonsense. Cheers.

[Keen]

To be honest, I haven't read the above... I am not interested in your list of questions

Look at Callafangers dodge!

Look at Callafangers run!

You simply don't engage with certain pieces of evidence (e.g. Kola findings). We have a fundamental disagreement on whether these findings are meaningful enough to be extrapolated in any way.

Really?

Andrzej Kola:

We uncovered seven mass graves with an average depth of five meters. In them there were charred human remains and under them remains in a state of decay.

Callafangers, Here is a photo of Kola's grave #1:



How much " charred human remains" and "remains in a state of decay" are we looking at?

What do you extapolate from these "findings"?

Callafangers, Here is a photo of Kola's grave #2:



How much " charred human remains" and "remains in a state of decay" are we looking at?

What do you extapolate from these "findings"?

Callafangers, Here is a photo of Kola's grave #3:



How much " charred human remains" and "remains in a state of decay" are we looking at?

What do you extapolate from these "findings"?

Callafangers, Here is a photo of Kola's grave #4:



How much " charred human remains" and "remains in a state of decay" are we looking at?

What do you extapolate from these "findings"?

Callafangers, Here is a photo of Kola's grave 5#:



How much " charred human remains" and "remains in a state of decay" are we looking at?

What do you extapolate from these "findings"?

Callafangers, Here is a photo of Kola's grave 6#:



How much " charred human remains" and "remains in a state of decay" are we looking at?

What do you extapolate from these "findings"?

Callafangers, Here is a photo of Kola's grave 7#:



How much " charred human remains" and "remains in a state of decay" are we looking at?

What do you extapolate from these "findings"?

[Keen]

This is bizarre. To be honest, I haven't read the above.

If you didn't "read the above" - then how would you know it was bizarre?

You sound, and act, EXACTLY like Nesserto.

BTW Callafangers, when are you going to show us the evidence that Kola actually discoverd "remains in a state of decay"?

What are you waiting for?

What are you so afraid of?

[Callafangers]

Core samples.

Core-Sobibor-Kola.jpg (153.81 KiB) Viewed 298 times

You simply do not engage with these questions. You cherry-pick -- which actually helps Nessie's camp when they present revisionists as being dishonest or evasive.

Please point me (a direct link) to any conversation where you have directly addressed the matter of core samples and how/whether they can be extrapolated to any particular quantity or consistency of remains at any AR camp.

I am not holding my breath. You basically repeat the same circular arguments like a carousel. I appreciate it sometimes as it highlights one way that revisionism can be argued. But it falls flat in the court of public opinion, since most people are going to find core sample arguments (and extrapolation) compelling.

I am not interested in getting comfortable inside an echo chamber. You seem perfectly cozy in one. That puts you in a similar pattern as Nessie, bombsaway, SanityCheck, etc.

[Keen]

Core samples.

That show what?

Taken from what "huge mass grave"?

Andrzej Kola:

We uncovered seven mass graves... In them there were charred human remains and under them remains in a state of decay.

Callafangers:

I think some have been fair to point out that there are certain excavations which most researchers (even revisionists) do not dispute having actually taken place (e.g. Kola at Sobibor...), with significant corpse quantities found... at Sobibor, there have been hundreds of core samples, dozens of which contain at least some amount of corpse material...

most people are going to find core sample arguments (and extrapolation) compelling.

Well then Callafangers, fill in the blanks for us:

Based on all of the evidence that I know exists, especially all of the physical evidence uncovered by Yoram Haimi's archaeological excavations ( https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=19148#p19148 ) and all of the physical evidence that Kola uncovered via core samples (dozens of which contained at least some amount of corpse material - i.e. - "charred human remains and remains in a state of decay") and all of the geophysical data collected ( https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=18937#p18937 ) - I believe that it can be logically and rationally extrapolated that the following "huge mass graves" contain / contained the following amount of human remains:

"Huge mass grave" #1: ?

"Huge mass grave" #2: ?

"Huge mass grave" #3: ?

"Huge mass grave" #4: ?

"Huge mass grave" #5: ?

"Huge mass grave" #6: ?

"Huge mass grave" #7: ?

"Huge mass grave" #22 (The "Mound of Ashes"): ?

TOTAL: ?

Callafangers, more information that can help you with your extrapolation can be found here: https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=19081#p19081

Oh, and we are still waiting for your statement of fact / rebuttable presumption that reflects your beliefs about Sobibor:

https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=18637#p18637

What are you waiting for Callafangers?

What are you so afraid of?

[Callafangers]

Core samples.

That show what?

That show that:

• Cores were actually being drilled
• ...and sampled
• ...and had apparent ash, burnt remains, and lime
• This aligns with what the authors claim in their written reports

These do not prove the DNA of the burnt remains, of course, but the photographs at least increase the probability that a sincere research effort has taken place.

Well then Callafangers, fill in the blanks for us:

Based on all of the evidence that I know exists, especially all of the physical evidence uncovered by Yoram Haimi's archaeological excavations ( https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=19148#p19148 ) and all of the physical evidence that Kola uncovered via core samples (dozens of which contained at least some amount of corpse material - i.e. - "charred human remains and remains in a state of decay") and all of the geophysical data collected ( https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=18937#p18937 ) - I believe that it can be logically and rationally extrapolated that the following "huge mass graves" contain / contained the following amount of human remains:

"Huge mass grave" #1: ?

"Huge mass grave" #2: ?

"Huge mass grave" #3: ?

"Huge mass grave" #4: ?

"Huge mass grave" #5: ?

"Huge mass grave" #6: ?

"Huge mass grave" #7: ?

"Huge mass grave" #22 (The "Mound of Ashes"): ?

TOTAL: ?

This is just strange behavior, Keen. What's strange about it is that we fully agree about the mass discrepancy of evidence versus allegations, in terms of scale. You don't seem satisfied with this common ground, though. You are uncomfortable with any concession of possible good faith on the side of any on-site investigation/excavation at alleged 'Holocaust' sites. And again, while I often share the same suspicion, I also prioritize making a convincing argument -- which means being forced to play within the framework set out for us, to a degree.

Is it possible that the miniscule number of corpses you estimate at AR camps is accurate? I think it's possible. But I also think this would necessitate that Kola and his team (and all others who attempted similar excavations) were straight-up lying. While I also think this is entirely possible, I am not convinced it is certain. And with this, I take some of their reports on corpses or corpse material found to be possibly sincere, and adjust my estimates accordingly.

You, on the other hand, do not think this far. You essentially say, "how many humans' worth of photographed corpse remains have been shown to us"? You're correct this is a very low number, perhaps as low as six, as you've stated many times.

Is my bold, italicized, bright-green concession there enough for you?

What are you waiting for Callafangers?

What are you so afraid of?

Keen, nobody is afraid of you. This isn't scary; it's strange, uncomfortable, highly-aggressive, unnecessary.

As for a more specific breakdown, here you go (for Sobibor):

K-Drills.jpg (133.46 KiB) Viewed 219 times

Notice that this does not show an actual number of corpses -- and this is what I mean by a need for extrapolation. What is absurd is that Kola and team wish us to extrapolate a contiguous surface area and depth/volume (and a consistency of material accounting for hundreds of thousands of corpses) from this. What's less absurd is the belief that core samples were in fact taken and at least roughly reflect the extremely-vague descriptions of material reported in each. Since the samples were reportedly taken in a grid with 5-meter spacing, there is a degree of random sampling at work here, which supports a more widespread pattern.

If we interpret the records of corpse remains as actually being so, this can easily bring us into a reasonable extrapolation of some tens of thousands of total corpses (but likely no more than ~15,000 or so, and definitely fewer than ~40-50,000, all things considered). It could be even less than ~10,000, depending on how often Kola's team mistook other burnt/charred material for corpse material.

Where you differ from most revisionists (including Mattogno) is that they (and myself) try to be as charitable as possible toward their opponents' view, to show that even within their opponents' own creative framework(s), what they claim cannot hold up. This is a much more convincing approach than simply shouting "NUH-UHHH" at the top of your lungs, year after year.

I hope you'll take a moment to reflect, someday. You make an intriguing presentation but your lack of tact and overall belligerence is very distracting and counter-productive at times. The goal isn't just to "win" here; it's to convince.