The 6,000,000 number, a fable?

[bombsaway]

That gives me an idea for a thread Bombsaway, something along the lines of 'Who is Considered a Holocaust Victim According to USHMM', or something along those lines.

This mostly applies to the USSR. There historians rely on German shooting statistics (which after you adjust for double counting and things comes out to over a million) + post - war censuses which show massive population drops

You might be able to shave a few hundred thousand of the total, but Hilberg was already that conservative, relying on extant German documentation

[Stubble]

I was more pointing at the definition of 'holocaust victim'. Any jew that died is counted, regardless of circumstance.

That's fodder for another thread though, it is just a detail I often forget and haven't spent much time actually cracking into.

Just natural mortality would have reduced the jewish population of Europe by a little over 1,000,000 even if ww2 hadn't happened, then you have war conditions on top of that.

If we go by the word of the rabbi, any jew who starved shouldn't count, because if you starve your neighbor to death, since the method of killing is indirect, your soul is clean. I think that's taking it a little too far though, and if you intentionally starve someone to death, that's on you. Still, I suppose it is important to consider whose definition for these things we are using.

[Nessie]

Lets verify if what the eyewitnesses say is true
Oh look, its all true
how do you know
because the eyewitnesses said so

Wash, rinse, repeat

Revisionists: "Did a lot of them lie, though?"

Exterminationists: "Uhh what do you mean by 'a lot'? That's subjective... A lot of things can be 'a lot'..." *continues frantically splitting hairs about meaning of 'a lot'***

It is very clear who the eyewitnesses are, that so-called revisionists claim lied. It is 100% of those who worked inside the AR camps, Chelmno and A-B Kremas. The result is that, despite millions of people having been inside those places, so-called revisionists cannot produce a single eyewitness to their operation, whom they believe.

[Nessie]

Both of them are seriously claiming that it was "reasonable" to have determined the six million number in 1944. LOL.

You say that, but neither of the following quotes back you up.

Now. Bombsaway. This guy is on record multiple times in May 1944 saying that six million Jews HAD died. Past tense. With earlier examples that say X million Jews in peril or whatever you can maybe wriggle out of it by saying it's generic and not that relevant. But do you honestly not see the problem here? Do you really not see why it's a problem for them to be using the number in the middle of the war?

A reasonable estimate based on pre-war populations was 6-7 million Jews under Nazi control. And they believed (as did British intelligence) that they were all being killed. So that's where you get the number.

But some people did think 5 million were being killed, eg this from 1943 https://www.google.com/books/edition/Se ... frontcover IF you spent as much time looking for 6 million as 5 million, and found much more that would be one thing. But there's nothing systematic about what you're doing, it is silliness.

Hey someone used 6 million except talking about survivors? Any connection there?

https://www.nytimes.com/1918/10/18/arch ... -help.html

Bombsaway has discussed that there was a range of figures being used during the war, and if you go further back with his posts, that range is 4, 5, 6 and 7 million. Each one was reasonable at the time, because of the sheer volume of evidence of millions of Jews being arrested and taken to camps and ghettos, and rumours, backed by the earliest eyewitness evidence, of mass killings.

...

In January 1945, Jacob Lestchinsky published an estimate that six million Jews had died. This might be the earliest that had any purported statistical basis. Need I again state the obvious and say that this is too early for any reliable statistics to have been calculated?
“6,000,000 Jews Dead: Jacob Lestchinsky Estimates Reduction in Europe Since ‘39,” NYT, 8 Jan 1945, pg. 17

....

Due to known population figures and arrests by Nazis, which were being monitored by Jewish groups and national governments, such as the Polish Government in Exile and the Dutch civil service, it was possible, during the war, to estimate how many Jews were being killed. By 1945, it was being estimated to be 6 million. When Hoettl also used that death toll at Nuremberg, it is hardly surprising it stuck as a single figure. Historians buck that trend and prefer the range of 5 to 6 million.

That so many Jews had disappeared, whilst in Nazi captivity, was compelling circumstantial evidence to corroborate the eyewitness, documentary and other evidence of mass murders.

I agree with what bombsaway has said, about the range of figures being suggested, both before and during the war. I then point out that, because of the various estimations during the war, one matched an authoritative Nazi figure given in 1945, namely 6 million by Hoettl at Nuremberg, that number became accepted as the commonly used death toll.

There was no conspiracy. Instead, there was a lot of estimating, one of which stuck as the common death toll and two of which became the historically accepted range, 5 to 6 million.

You never consider the impact, the mass arrests had, across Europe, 1939-44. People seeing their Jewish neighbours being criminalised, for being Jewish and then arrested and even at the end of the war, failing to return. That was strong circumstantial evidence to support the rumours and other evidence, those people had been killed. From Norway to Greece, the Nazis received a lot of assistance, identifying, arresting and transporting Jews. Those assisting were told that the Jews were being resettled, but in 1945, there was no evidence of that. Instead, only a few hundred thousand Jews were liberated and returned home, and they all spoke about enduring horrendous cruelty and the selection process, after which they never saw many of their relatives, friends and neighbours again.

[HansHill]

it was unknown how many Jews in the USSR had fallen under Nazi control, how many were being used for labor.

it was unknown how many Jews in German Occupied Russia had fallen under Soviet control, how many were being used for labor.

That was easy.

[Nessie]

it was unknown how many Jews in the USSR had fallen under Nazi control, how many were being used for labor.

it was unknown how many Jews in German Occupied Russia had fallen under Soviet control, how many were being used for labor.

That was easy.

I say the Nazis knew how many Jews fell under their control in Eastern Europe and how many were being used for labour. See the Korherr Report and Wannsee Minutes for figures. A lot of resources were put into ensure the Nuremberg laws were complied with, in countries they occupied.

[HansHill]

it was unknown how many Jews in the USSR had fallen under Nazi control, how many were being used for labor.

it was unknown how many Jews in German Occupied Russia had fallen under Soviet control, how many were being used for labor.

That was easy.

I say the Nazis knew how many Jews fell under their control in Eastern Europe and how many were being used for labour. See the Korherr Report and Wannsee Minutes for figures. A lot of resources were put into ensure the Nuremberg laws were complied with, in countries they occupied.

Fascinating. You and Bombsaway have an interesting conversation in front of you. Good luck!

[SanityCheck]

I don't think I ever said 5 million was the dominant figure, or there was a special significance to it. The google search turned more hits for 5 million, but it's hard to draw conclusions from this though it isn't what we would expect assuming mystical/psychological significance to 6 million. You are drawing conclusions without proper neutrality, explaining what is going on mechanistically.

The reason figures were often around 5-6 million in the pre-war period and during the war, when talking about Jewish suffering was that this was the approximate amount of Jews that fell under Nazi control, and before that, the amount of Jews in Eastern Europe + Poland where anti semitism was strongest

You are conflating the question of mystical interpretation with the larger issue of the figure being used prematurely. You cannot explain the latter and you are avoiding confronting that difficulty in favor of numerological questions. Let's set aside momentarily the question of whether the 6 million had any special significance. That can be investigated separately. Even if it were the case that the number simply caught on randomly, we still have the fact that it was used too early.

Rabbi Michael Dov Weissmandl (the man behind the Vrba-Wetzler report), May 1944

“Till now six times a million Jews have Europe and Russia have been destroyed.” (Dawidowicz, Holocaust Reader, pg. 327)

“And you, our brothers in all free countries; and you, governments of all free lands, where are you? What are you doing to hinder the carnage that is now going on? Already 6,000,000 Jews have been massacred and this number is increasing by ten thousands every day.” (WRB Archives, material sent with Vrba-Wetzler material)

Now. Bombsaway. This guy is on record multiple times in May 1944 saying that six million Jews HAD died. Past tense. With earlier examples that say X million Jews in peril or whatever you can maybe wriggle out of it by saying it's generic and not that relevant. But do you honestly not see the problem here? Do you really not see why it's a problem for them to be using the number in the middle of the war?

And this is not an isolated example. Joel Brand was also using the number in June 1944. Below is from his interview with Moshe Shertok.

“Similarly, the Nazis believed that by offering to release the remaining 2,000,000 Jews, they might get away with the killing of 6,000,000.”

“Please believe me: they have killed six million Jews; there are only two million left alive.”

Ilya Ehrenberg, 22 Dec 1944 (Soviet War News)
“In regions they seized, the Germans killed all the Jews, from the old folk to infants in arms. Ask any German prisoner why his fellow countrymen annihilated six million innocent people, and he will reply quite simply: ‘Why, they were Jews.’”

So that is at least three different very notable people saying in 1944 that six million Jews had already died. And fairly recently there was a discovery of an example from January 1944 of a rabbi saying in a newspaper article that six million had died. That is the earliest past tense example that I am aware of.

In January 1945, Jacob Lestchinsky published an estimate that six million Jews had died. This might be the earliest that had any purported statistical basis. Need I again state the obvious and say that this is too early for any reliable statistics to have been calculated?
“6,000,000 Jews Dead: Jacob Lestchinsky Estimates Reduction in Europe Since ‘39,” NYT, 8 Jan 1945, pg. 17

Jacob Robinson, June 1945, meeting with Justice Jackson

How great were those losses? inquired Jackson, seeking a figure to use at the coming trial. 'Six million,' responded Dr Robinson, and indicated that the figure included Jews in all Nazi-occupied lands 'from the Channel to Stalingrad.'

Jackson noted that day:

I was particularly interested in knowing the source and reliability of his estimate as I know no authentic data on it. (David Irving, Nuremberg: The Last Battle, pg. 62)

Sydney Gruson, reports from Zionists in London, Aug/Sep 1945. These example are also pre-Nuremberg and they show that the number was well-established in British circles as well.

About 1,500,000 Jews are left in Europe outside the Soviet Union. Six million have perished at the hands of the Nazis. Palestine is the only hope for the ones who are left, the Zionists declare, and they must be given the chance to go without delay. "It cannot be expected, Dr. Weizmann said, "that a people should look with equanimity on the agony of their brothers who survived so fearful a holocaust. (NYT, 4 Aug 1945)

Loss of six million Jews during the war has made extremists of all Zionists in the sense that they do not believe that there can be any more delay in establishing a Jewish homeland, and that their demands are considerate in proportion to Jewry's sacrifices in the war and its contribution to the United Nations' war effort. (NYT, 2 Sep 1945)

The only honest argument that can be made here is that these people were guesstimating and coincidentally got the "correct" answer.

Revisiting this i am even less impressed with ooooh-Weissmandl-said-six-million than I was before. For two reasons

1. Weissmandl was just one of many thousands of observers-commentators, Jewish and non-Jewish, at this time. Numerous Jewish observers pieced together information to conclude patterns of extermination or heard things about different countries/regions and inferred things. This would start in 1941, with e.g. the appeal to resistance in Wilno a good example in January 1942. Many more such contemporary sources note down patterns, some might have attempted to estimate numbers. Most did not, or might have fudged things ('millions'). Or not known so much about wider patterns, unlike the very well connected.

2. Weissmandl's letter of 31 May 1944 was written in full knowledge of ongoing deportations from Hungary and after the Vrba-Wetzler report had been written down. The 'working group' in Slovakia had learned about Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka in 1942-3, thousands of Polish Jewish refugees passed through Slovakia en route to Hungary in 1942-44 bringing with them knowledge. Polish Jewish observers were reporting on essentially total extermination barring those in hiding and the remnants in labour camps, KZs and the Lodz ghetto. Quite probably some of these reports passed through Slovakia en route to Switzerland and Palestine, but even without detailed breakdowns, concluding that 3 million Polish Jews had been wiped out was not a huge leap by 1944. The Vrba-Wetzler report confirmed suspicions and reports that other nationalities were likewise being killed.

Before bringing up six million, Weissmandl mentioned no fewer than four extermination camps or their synonyms: "On the other hand, heads of government and radio must announce what was done to our people in the slaughter houses of Betzec, Malkinia, Sobibor, and Auschwitz. Till now six times a million Jews from Europe and Russia have been destroyed." The Working Group recorded the account of a Treblinka escapee in 1943, so the Malkinia synonym is no big deal.

The influence of Vrba-Wetzler on Weissmandl saying six million seems obvious on re-reading the entire document in The Holocaust Reader (pretty sure I saw this exact report in the WRB files within the past 10 years, in German.) If a further source reports on 1.765 million Jews killed at Auschwitz, then it's quite easy to see how this would help boost a sense of 3 million + a lot more, especially if as is likely the overlap (900,000 Polish Jews) was overlooked.

Finding an estimate of six million before Vrba-Wetzler reached Slovakia or anywhere else would be more 'premature', but after Vrba-Wetzler it seems much more likely.

Joel Brand was part of the Hungarian Jewish leadership inner circle, so likely saw Weissmandl's reports, Weissmandl and the Hungarians clearly were exchanging information. So once one observer went for a particular number, the chance of someone else repeating it shoots up.

Still waiting for the detailed survey of all Jewish observers and contemporary sources for 1944 to see how many more past three invoked six million privately or in public. Yes, that would be the appropriate denominator to establish significance - every name and no-name writing down their belief in generalised exterminaton without mentioning numbers would relativise the significance.

Bear in mind that with a Jewish population in Europe of 9-10 million at the start of the war, for somebody to guesstimate six million would be entirely plausible based on near-random chance - it's literally a 1 in 10 chance, whereas for 1944 it would likely be one in a thousand observers getting to six million, rather than 'almost everyone in Latvia' or '1.765 million in Auschwitz'.

[Stubble]

And the 50 odd years before ww2 they knew it was going to be 6,000,000 because, they had a 1 in 10 chance, got it...

No offense, your reasoning is absurd given the history of the number as a claim and the fact that it is incongruent with the reality of 'the holocaust (tm)' whatever it actually was.

I understand that you personally believe, absolutely, that 'operation harvest festival' was an actual factual event (for example) and that people timidly stacked themselves 'sardine style' laying face down on top of dead bodies and caustic chemicals, waiting to be shot in the back of the head. Personally, I don't find these claims convincing. Then we have 'homicidal gas chambers' which I assume you also believe.

Now we have this, a 55 year running gag with the 6,000,000 jews, and you just shrug it off after it has continued to run for another 80 years.

meh, it was a 1 in 10 chance guess.

[SanityCheck]

And the 50 odd years before ww2 they knew it was going to be 6,000,000 because, they had a 1 in 10 chance, got it...

No offense, your reasoning is absurd given the history of the number as a claim and the fact that it is incongruent with the reality of 'the holocaust (tm)' whatever it actually was.

I understand that you personally believe, absolutely, that 'operation harvest festival' was an actual factual event (for example) and that people timidly stacked themselves 'sardine style' laying face down on top of dead bodies and caustic chemicals, waiting to be shot in the back of the head. Personally, I don't find these claims convincing. Then we have 'homicidal gas chambers' which I assume you also believe.

Now we have this, a 55 year running gag with the 6,000,000 jews, and you just shrug it off after it has continued to run for another 80 years.

meh, it was a 1 in 10 chance guess.

It's a lot better than a 1 in 10 chance that 6 million Jews would be invoked in the 19th and early 20th Centuries as well as from the 1940s.

Earlier in the 19th Century Jews passed a six million population in the whole of Europe. This happened for the Netherlands between the 1910 and 1920 censuses. In the whole of the 19th Century, the Dutch population apparently grew from 2 million to 5 million
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demograph ... rowth_rate

It's basic nationalism to note how many your people might number.

By the end of the 19th Century there were even more obviously millions of Jews in Eastern Europe. The Russian census of 1897 counted 5.2 million Jews, with a growing population, and large numbers in neighbouring countries like Romania and the Habsburg Monarchy. Speaking in terms of six million Jews in Russia/Poland was easy especially when population growth rates were very high.

By 1939 Poland and the USSR each had more than 3 million Jews, again not counting neighbouring countries.

The American Jewish Yearbook began publication in 1899 and has pretty much always surveyed the world population of Jewry, using the most recent censuses and estimates, divided by region and country. This was reinforced by encyclopedias and other reference works. Eichmann's office used the AJYB to estimate Jewish populations in Europe, it was that standard a reference.

All the enumerations were pointing at between 9-10 million Jews in Europe by 1939 (note that the Soviet 1939 census did become known in broad terms quite early).

The methodology of comparing censuses and estimates is exactly what was used by Jewish organisations in the 1940s to estimate losses.

So it is entirely unsurprising that six million would recur over and over in the 19th and 20th Centuries regarding numbers of Jews in Europe and Eastern Europe.

It is entirely unsurprising that quick estimates of Jewish population losses, noting widespread patterns of deportations and killings, might reach two-thirds of the total European Jewish population of 9-10 million.

It is entirely unsurprising that someone might double the 3 million Jews of Poland to invoke 6 million.

It is entirely unsurprising that six million Jews killed would become an expression of Jewish ethnonational identity after 1945, whether in Israel or the diaspora.

Because the same rounding-up tendency is noted for other megacides, such as the 2 million dead of the expulsion of Germans after 1945, the 1 million dead of the Armenian and Rwandan genocides, the 3 million dead proclaimed for the 1971 Bangladesh genocide, the 6 million dead for WWII in Poland, the 7 million or more dead of the Holodomor pushed by the 1980s.

In most of these cases the 'specialist' numbers are lower, sometimes significantly so, and rarely higher. The Armenian genocide is in fact the only one with estimate ranges that rise above the symbolic rounded number, but the official Ottoman concession of 800,000 dead sits in the exact same relationship to 1 million as Hilberg's 5.1 million does to 'the six million'.

[Stubble]

You are throwing a dart that is 6,000,000 and then drawing the target around where it lands.

'Well, you see, 6,000,000 makes sense here because, 6,000,000 is a number that can be written on paper to reflect a jewish population, assuming you count 6,000,000 jews'.

It doesn't matter when or where. 6,000,000 starving jews in Belarus? Of course that makes sense, they're just talking about the 6,000,000 jews of Europe...etc etc etc.

Now, iran wants to 'genocide 6,000,000 jews'...of course they do, 6,000,000 jews is a part of the jewish population after all, so, it makes perfect sense.

I'm tired of the lies, and I'm tired of the pilpul. No more apologetics, just the facts.

Mr Check, did 6,000,000 jews die at the hands of nazis in an act of murder, specifically murder, during the second world war?

[SanityCheck]

With any rounded number figures there are - ironically - at least six approaches which can be taken:
1) outright deniers
2) doubters and minimisers
3) avoiders
4) fudgers ('millions', 'hundreds of thousands' depending on scale)
5) recalculators and those quoting them (for the Holocaust, the Reitlinger-Hilberg approach)
6) repeaters of the rounded number mantra

For the Holocaust there are also the conflators who think six million is the number of all Nazi victims or those influenced by Wiesenthal who affirm 11 million, with or without the 6 million Jews + 5 million others formula.

You can use this to parse all of the many recognitions, affirmations and commemorations of big round number events. The White House, EU Parliament, other parliaments, heads of goverrnment/state, institutions, frequently affirm and recognise the Holocaust, Holodomor, Armenian genocide, Rwandan genocide, and more. Many affirm and recognise Stalinist terror as well (Black Ribbon Day for European countries, etc).

Many such affirmations and recognitions might side-step even the rounded numbers. I am fairly sure if one surveyed all the statements on such megacides from 1915 onwards then one would find the Holocaust was most often recognised with six million. But I seriously doubt that one would find every European or British head of government/state, every Pope, every UN resolution would invoke 'six million'.

Here's a good example: the UN resolution of 2005 recommending January 27 as Holocaust Remembrance Day - no mention of six million or any millions, only of "the murder of one third of the Jewish people, along with countless members of other minorities":
https://docs.un.org/en/A/RES/60/7

The 2022 UN resolution condemning Holocaust denial by contrast noted the murder of 'nearly' six million Jews. (You can google it easily enough.)

The EU resolution on the 100th anniversary of the Armenian genocide counted one and a half million victims, higher than many experts would accept
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/do ... 94_EN.html

The 2022 EU resolution on the Holodomor went for the fudging of 'the deaths of millions of Ukrainians'
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/do ... 59_EN.html

US Congressional and White House resolutions on Victims of Communism Day (November 7) have been routine and when advanced by Republicans refer to 'more than 100 million people who have been killed and persecuted'
https://trumpwhitehouse.archives.gov/br ... communism/ (2018)
https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-con ... n/679/text (2019)
https://trumpwhitehouse.archives.gov/br ... sm-110720/ (2020)

Biden's administration did not push the Victims of Communism Memorial Day, but it will clearly be back this autumn with Trump in the WH.

By contrast, Trudeau's Canada continued the policy of affirming Black Ribbon Day on August 23 which began in 2009. This resorts to fudging about millions and uses the list form of inclusivity of victim groups: "millions of people suffered tremendously under totalitarian regimes, including Jewish, Romani, Slavic, and 2SLGBTQI+ communities, as well as persons with disabilities."
https://www.pm.gc.ca/en/news/statements ... ribbon-day

Biden's White House started using genocide when commemorating the Armenian genocide in 2021, referring to one and a half million deported and killed (fudging survivor numbers)
https://bidenwhitehouse.archives.gov/br ... nce-day-3/

Trump's White House this spring repeated more or less the same spiel and 'one and a half million' number exiled and dying, but dropped the g-word
https://armenpress.am/en/article/1218114

That reverted the wording back to Obama-era statements - this one from 2016 has the same boilerplate in the statement and same reference to one and a half million deported and massacred, but also avoided the g-word
https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/th ... brance-day

[SanityCheck]

Mr Check, did 6,000,000 jews die at the hands of nazis in an act of murder, specifically murder, during the second world war?

No, something just over five million Jews died at Nazi *and Axis* hands (primarily the Romanians and Croatians). Hilberg's 5.1 million is good enough for working purposes - this as with other breakdowns includes the Axis killings independently of the Nazis.

That's 85% of six million.

Which is why I simply do not get very worked up about the rounding-up.

I am much more certain that the rounded 1 million in the Rwandan genocide, 2 million in the Heimatvertreibungen and 3 million of the Bangladesh genocide of 1971 are "exaggerations". The Heimatvertreibungen losses are more likely between 600,000 and 1 million, and certainly not the canonical 2 million.

You may not care or be interested in these other megacides, but I don't have that luxury trying to grapple with 'how it really was' in history, the same with claims that 'Stalin killed 20 million peope', such rounded numbers thrown around casually don't match the data we now have available.

The other reason I just do not give a shit is because advancing past the headline/conclusion figures for the Holocaust means considering the just over 100,000 deported from the Netherlands, the circa 3 million in Poland, the hundreds of thousands just within Warsaw ghetto, and so on.

Nobody has yet explained how any of those national, regional and city specific numbers were twisted to add up to six million - quite clearly they weren't, otherwise the Reitlinger-Hilberg type calculations wouldn't come in consistently under six million.

I just laid out a perfectly good argument noting why early exaggerated numbers for the camps likely contributed to boosting the impression of higher numbers overall, i.e. supported early estimates of six million.

The problem is, such early exaggerations overlapped and ended up killing the same (Polish) Jews many times over until the country by country method reasserted itself. The chief overlap being assuming Majdanek killed so many when in fact it was part of the property-sorting hub for the Aktion Reinhardt camps.

Revisionists might like fussing about the various numbers separately, but seem curiously incapable of seeing how they did and didn't inform each other, from Vrba-Wetzler's now-obvious overestimate to the Majdanek 1.5 million and then adding in all the other early exaggerations before they deflated down once examined more carefully, and matched against countries, regions, cities.

Recalculations from Reitlinger onwards produced a range of 4.2 to nearly 6 million, broken down by countries, so not only is just over 5 million the mean it is the one that is best supported after eighty years of research.

By contrast, the Heimatvertreibungen's 2 million was slashed to a third by internal West German reinvestgations.

[Nessie]

And the 50 odd years before ww2 they knew it was going to be 6,000,000..

They didn't know.

because, they had a 1 in 10 chance, got it...

As the Nazis started to kill Jews, the chances of a 4, 5 or 6 million prediction increasingly became true.

No offense, your reasoning is absurd given the history of the number as a claim and the fact that it is incongruent with the reality of 'the holocaust (tm)' whatever it actually was.

You cherry pick 6 million, so you fool yourself into thinking that number is unique and significant. Your illogical mind has let you down, again.

I understand that you personally believe, absolutely, that 'operation harvest festival' was an actual factual event (for example) and that people timidly stacked themselves 'sardine style' laying face down on top of dead bodies and caustic chemicals, waiting to be shot in the back of the head. Personally, I don't find these claims convincing. Then we have 'homicidal gas chambers' which I assume you also believe.

Normal people follow the evidence.

Now we have this, a 55 year running gag with the 6,000,000 jews, and you just shrug it off after it has continued to run for another 80 years.

meh, it was a 1 in 10 chance guess.

You are a conspiracist who does not follow the evidence, or think logically.

[HansHill]

Mr Check, did 6,000,000 jews die at the hands of nazis in an act of murder, specifically murder, during the second world war?

No, something just over five million Jews died

This is so f*cking stupid and you're basically making Revisionists point for us. I'm not telling you what country I am in right now, but if I make the statement "Adolf Hitler did not gas 6 million Jews" in public, I risk legal entanglements, having my kids taken away from me, economic sanctions and unemployment.

No amount of grovelling "But officer, what I actually meant was that it was 5.1 million Jews, look here it is as per Hilberg!" will compensate for this reality. This demonstrates very neatly that Six-Million-As-Symbol > Six-Million-As-Number. It follows then, from the Revisionist's side that symbols aren't calculated because they don't bloody well have to be. It's like adding two cells together in Excel, except those cells are words and not numbers. Its a meaningless operation in an exercise that doesn't require it.

What you're left to kvetch over, is the symbol mystical, or illogical, or co-incidence, or premeditated.