The 6,000,000 number, a fable?

[Callafangers]

Bombsaway's continued denial of the six million is interesting to observe. I have to wonder what planet he has been living on with this "5M was actually more popular than 6M theory." I was initially somewhat angry over what seems to be brazen dishonesty but now I can only only chuckle at such boutique, artisanal Holocaust hot takes. Bombs should really consider publishing some of these revolutionary theories, hitherto unknown in Holocaust literature.

The problem I have with the 5M theory (in addition to it being false) is that it fails to explain how the six million became dominant.

This is the standard bombsaway M.O. -- just keep throwing shit and see what sticks. If it doesn't stick, throw harder.

[bombsaway]

I think the point is, that people with ethnic solidarity play up the dangers their brethren are in. Of course, if your pattern recognition is out of whack, you see this as evidence of hoaxing. Imagine if a million south africans were actually genocided, deniers of that could use this same argument.

How much of the global media, Hollywood/entertainment, publishers, academia, etc. do South Africans control?

How much global wealth do they have, and how much of their influence saturates key institutions in politics, law, medicine, military, law enforcement, finance, and more?

The point is that you expect ethnically minded groups to make a fuss about the suffering of their brethren. Jews have a huge media stake, so it's just all expected.

Bombsaway's continued denial of the six million is interesting to observe. I have to wonder what planet he has been living on with this "5M was actually more popular than 6M theory." I was initially somewhat angry over what seems to be brazen dishonesty but now I can only only chuckle at such boutique, artisanal Holocaust hot takes. Bombs should really consider publishing some of these revolutionary theories, hitherto unknown in Holocaust literature.

The problem I have with the 5M theory (in addition to it being false) is that it fails to explain how the six million became dominant.

What did I deny about 6 million? In the pre-war and war period there was no clear consensus around it, afterwards, sure.

Quote me where I've said anything other than this.

[Nessie]

....
Whether we cut it by means or by motive, it just isn't there for South Africans, but it's all there for Jews and their networks.
...

Jews are spread across many countries. South Africans, or Cambodians, are not spread in the same way. They also do not number in the millions, as the Jews did in Eastern Europe. White South Africans and Cambodians were secure in their countries, until they lost that security. Jews in Eastern Europe rarely had that security. That explains why there were predictions about persecution of the Jews, but not other places.

[borjastick]

....
Whether we cut it by means or by motive, it just isn't there for South Africans, but it's all there for Jews and their networks.
...

Jews are spread across many countries. South Africans, or Cambodians, are not spread in the same way. They also do not number in the millions, as the Jews did in Eastern Europe. White South Africans and Cambodians were secure in their countries, until they lost that security. Jews in Eastern Europe rarely had that security. That explains why there were predictions about persecution of the Jews, but not other places.

Yet despite all these claims of persecution and feelings of insecurity them poor old fake eastern european jews called ashkenazi Thirteenth Tribers couldn't find their way to 'their' ancient homeland from which they claim to have emanated and been descendants of. The good old Crusaders back a thousand years ago or more they found their way to the Holy land but the ashkenazis couldn't. Now we have the ridiculous sight of thousands of 'jews' running from 'their' land clutching their two passports and feeling very happy about dual nationality because Iran woke up and said 'fuck you' to the zionists.

[Archie]

I think the point is, that people with ethnic solidarity play up the dangers their brethren are in. Of course, if your pattern recognition is out of whack, you see this as evidence of hoaxing. Imagine if a million south africans were actually genocided, deniers of that could use this same argument.

How much of the global media, Hollywood/entertainment, publishers, academia, etc. do South Africans control?

How much global wealth do they have, and how much of their influence saturates key institutions in politics, law, medicine, military, law enforcement, finance, and more?

The point is that you expect ethnically minded groups to make a fuss about the suffering of their brethren. Jews have a huge media stake, so it's just all expected.

Bombsaway's continued denial of the six million is interesting to observe. I have to wonder what planet he has been living on with this "5M was actually more popular than 6M theory." I was initially somewhat angry over what seems to be brazen dishonesty but now I can only only chuckle at such boutique, artisanal Holocaust hot takes. Bombs should really consider publishing some of these revolutionary theories, hitherto unknown in Holocaust literature.

The problem I have with the 5M theory (in addition to it being false) is that it fails to explain how the six million became dominant.

What did I deny about 6 million? In the pre-war and war period there was no clear consensus around it, afterwards, sure.

Quote me where I've said anything other than this.

You have been claiming that 5M, not 6M, was predominate through 1945.

Your only support for this was to search for "5 million Jews" in Google books (which yields lots of totally irrelevant examples).

You can't explain how the six million took hold.

Your theories are totally at variance with what everyone else on either side has ever said.

There is a proclivity to insist that there were 6 million killed because that’s what was said in 1945. People don’t want to let go.

-Raul Hilberg, 1990

Your "analysis" on the origin of the six million meme is quoted below.

Are you claiming that there were way more mentions of 6 million than any other number, like 5 million?

If there were roughly this many Jews in Nazi controlled Europe, and they believed in a policy of mass extermination, then yes it would make sense for them to say this many were being killed.

The HC argument is that for the really early pre-war examples, you could also compile examples of other numbers. This is a fair point, although this does not in my mind disprove the possibility that the six million is numerologically significant. I myself take no position on the numerology arguments as I like to stick to what I know rather than wade into obscure ancient cabalistic sources. We don't need any of that to show that the six million figure is totally bogus and was used prematurely. The numerology would just be the gravy.

As far as war-time examples, my impression from the war-time sources is that in late 1942-1943, the Zionist lobby was claiming that two million Jews HAD been already been murdered and that 4M were in peril and would be killed unless we gave them Palestine. Occasionally you will see them say 2M+5M (for a total of 7M). That is the main variant that I am aware of. By 1944, the six million was being used by the Weissmandl group in Slovakia, by Joel Brand, by Ilya Ehrenberg, and probably others. And then in 1945, you have Chaim Weizmann's circles using it. Jacob Robinson as well. Probably a bunch of others. And you get the Hoettl affidavit in late 1945. Jackson cited 5.7M "missing" early on at the IMT. Go ahead and count that as a variant if you want, but what happened there is they initially told him six million and they came back with a more "precise" number (hardly) when he asked them for sources.

Same argument could be made for 5 million. 5 million has more hits between 1941 and 1945, at least in cursory search. So at best you have this narrative forming after the war.

https://www.google.com/search?q=%225,00 ... =916&dpr=1

https://www.google.com/search?q=%226,00 ... =916&dpr=1

[Archie]

There is a memorial in NYC called the American Memorial to Six Million Jews of Europe. It was dedicated in October 1947. The planning for goes back even earlier, at least as early as January 1946.

A memorial to Six Million Jews of Europe was first proposed by Adolph R. Lerner, a Polish Jewish refugee who was a journalist and publisher. He had fled Vienna when the Nazis took over Austria in 1938, going first to France and then to the United States. During 1943 and 1944, he worked at the official Polish news agency in New York, editing bulletins that arrived from the Polish underground. Lerner was vice president of the "U.S. national organization of Polish Jews".[6][7][1][5]

In January 1946 they proposed that an eternal flame be established dedicated to the heroes of the Warsaw ghetto and the six million Jews killed by the Nazis to be the "American Memorial to Six Million Jews of Europe".[8]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_ ... _of_Europe

The six million meme was clearly well established by the very early postwar. The question is, how did this number originate?

Bombsaway claims that this is a "narrative forming after the war" which is just totally absurd. The origin is certainly earlier because we have examples from 1944 of people saying six million Jews HAD been killed in Europe. And we even have "statistical" estimates of 6M appearing in January 1945. These are highly relevant examples from notable people that show clear continuity with the eventual "fact" of the six million. But 1944 is really not a good answer either because there are just too many "predictions" in 1943 that Hitler was going to kill six million Jews. And that doesn't even begin to settle the matter.

[Wahrheitssucher]

…What happened to the Jews czarist Russia is unquestionably worse, conservative estimates place the death toll in the tens of thousands.

Here’s something for you:
https://rusjournal.org/wp-content/uploa ... ogroms.pdf

The official history says that from the late 19th century to the First World War, Jews in western Russian cities were targeted… in “pogroms.” This is a buzzword designed to make attacking Jews different than attacking everyone else. These riots, the academic will piously tell us, “killed millions and millions”; Jews were targeted for “no reason” and the violence was instigated by “the tsar” due to “blind hate’.
While this is a common historical claim whenever Jews are concerned, as always, none of this is [accurate].
Western Russian violence at this time had several qualities in common: few Jews were killed; Jews were almost always the aggressors; and Jews were far better armed than the local police in cities such as Vilna, Starodub, Odessa and Kiev.

…Solzhenitsyn and Oleg Platonov, John Klier and Andrew Joyce have popped the mythical bubble of the pogroms that have become the most critical and important aspect of Russian Jewish mythology. Royce is important because he spends so much time laying out the motivation of the myth.

…None of this is to say that there was no violence against Jews. …[but] if anything, the restraint of the Russian people was heroic.

Then, back on topic, there is the alleged N U M B E R of poor, innocent people who were ‘progrommed’ in Tzarist Russia, supposedly merely because of their jewish ethnicity.
You wrote it was “tens of thousands”.

The propaganda against Tsarist Russia reached its fever pitch at the turn of the 20th century. As always, the press did as it pleased and was repeated faithfully in English.
Curiously, it was based around a recurring claim that "six million" Jews either had been killed or were about to be killed in Ukraine and other parts of western Russia.

The Russian Jewish Yearbook 1911 says,
“Russia has since 1890 adopted a deliberate plan to expel or exterminate six million of its people."

In the 10th edition of the Encyclopedia Britannica (1902), we read on page 482:
"While there are in Russia and Romania six millions of Jews who are being systematically degraded.."

Over and again the "6 million" figure is repeated.

The New York Times wrote on January 29th, 1905:
"He declared that a free and a happy Russia, with its 6,000,000 Jews, would possibly mean the end of Zionism, since the abolition of the autocracy would practically eliminate the causes that brought Zionism into existence."
This chilling statement suggests that Jewish agitation must be crated or invented, if the causes for it are not in existence.

Later, in November, the Times said, "From 1800 to 1902 he caused 6,000,000 Jewish families to be expelled from Russia."

A few years later, The New York Times again, on October 31st, 1911, stated that
“The 6,000,000 Jews of Russia are singled out for systematic oppression and for persecution due to process of law”.

Further, The American-Jewish Yearbook reads:
"Russia has since 1890 adopted a deliberate plan to expel or exterminate six millions of its people for no other reason than that they refuse to become members of the Greek Church, but prefer to remain Jews" (AJY, 5672, 308, covering the period from September 23 2011 to September 11 1912, pg. 308).
This claim was entirely invented.

The Pittsburgh-based New Jewish Criterion wrote: "The annihilation of the six million Jews now congregated in the Russian domains goes on in a well defined and systematic manner" (June 25, 1915).

The New York Tribune wrote:
"What the Turks are doing to Armenians is child's play compared to what Russia is doing to six million Jews, her own subjects" (October 14 1915).

Further, we read "[In Russia] where six million human beings guilty only of adherence to the Jewish faith are compelled to live out their lives in squalor and misery, in constant terror of massacre.. Russia is a kind of prison with six million inmates." (American Jewish Committee, 1916, "Jews in the Eastern War Zone").

In 1918, the Jewish Criterion wrote:
"Russia, where the bulk of the Jewish people to the number of well over six million still dwell, is a land of blood and midnight darkness" (Volume 50, 2 September 5 1918).

SUMMARY:
You are in denial, Bombsaway.

[bombsaway]

Dudes, there's plenty of mention of 5,000,000 Jews facing death/annihilation/expulsion

it proves diddly

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Cl ... frontcover

[Stubble]

How many of those claims of 5,000,000 were not later modified into 6,000,000 and how many of them were made within 12 months of the close of the war Bombsaway....

5,000,000 is a number before 6,000,000.

So far as what it proves, it proves that a lie, can be propagated, sent through all of academia, integrated into education and parroted through the entire media apparatus for 80 years without anyone batting an eye.

This is without any consideration of why 6,000,000.

[bombsaway]

How many of those claims of 5,000,000 were not later modified into 6,000,000 and how many of them were made within 12 months of the close of the war Bombsaway....

5,000,000 is a number before 6,000,000.

So far as what it proves, it proves that a lie, can be propagated, sent through all of academia, integrated into education and parroted through the entire media apparatus for 80 years without anyone batting an eye.

This is without any consideration of why 6,000,000.

I don't know of any claims being "modified". Don't know what that could even mean.

I answered the question of why, that's how many Jews there were in the Russian empire where they faced the most persecution historically. 5 to 6 million. Those are the numbers you see.

[Stubble]

I wrote an article in 1943, I claim 5,000,000.

I write an article in 44-45, I claim 6,000,000.

I have modified the number.

You aren't this dense Bombsaway, you are playing dumb.

[bombsaway]

A number solidified post war. There are articles from late war period by Jewish organizations assuming millions of Jews would be turning up in refugee camps. So what? Your failure is your inability to read the situation from any possible lens but HOAX. You're bringing that presumption into your evaluation of this evidence, which is a clear fail, evidence has to be evaluated in a neutral light.

[Archie]

A number solidified post war. There are articles from late war period by Jewish organizations assuming millions of Jews would be turning up in refugee camps. So what? Your failure is your inability to read the situation from any possible lens but HOAX. You're bringing that presumption into your evaluation of this evidence, which is a clear fail, evidence has to be evaluated in a neutral light.

Your analysis is not only wrong it also doesn't explain anything.

1) 5M was the dominant figure during the war
2) ???
3) 6M became the dominant figure after the war
4) Profit

[bombsaway]

A number solidified post war. There are articles from late war period by Jewish organizations assuming millions of Jews would be turning up in refugee camps. So what? Your failure is your inability to read the situation from any possible lens but HOAX. You're bringing that presumption into your evaluation of this evidence, which is a clear fail, evidence has to be evaluated in a neutral light.

Your analysis is not only wrong it also doesn't explain anything.

1) 5M was the dominant figure during the war
2) ???
3) 6M became the dominant figure after the war
4) Profit

I don't think I ever said 5 million was the dominant figure, or there was a special significance to it. The google search turned more hits for 5 million, but it's hard to draw conclusions from this though it isn't what we would expect assuming mystical/psychological significance to 6 million. You are drawing conclusions without proper neutrality, explaining what is going on mechanistically.

The reason figures were often around 5-6 million in the pre-war period and during the war, when talking about Jewish suffering was that this was the approximate amount of Jews that fell under Nazi control, and before that, the amount of Jews in Eastern Europe + Poland where anti semitism was strongest

[HansHill]

You are drawing conclusions without proper neutrality, explaining what is going on mechanistically.

What even is this argument

"p-p-please be neutral with my propaganda"

Nice try - if you haven't noticed, this entire conversation is about your nonsense being pulled apart, we don't owe you "neutrality", what we owe you is critical thinking and to reject it as we see fit. "Neutrality", wtf.

Like this:

The reason figures were often around 5-6 million in the pre-war period and during the war, when talking about Jewish suffering was that this was the approximate amount of Jews that fell under Nazi control, and before that, the amount of Jews in Eastern Europe + Poland where anti semitism was strongest

The geo-political calculus swinging across time, regions, political configurations and actors, and supposed hostile threat entities with polar divergent objectives, and muh 6 million is a constant across all those wildly fluctuating parameters.