The 6,000,000 number, a fable?

[Wahrheitssucher]

In 2018 Bibi said 6 million jews were in danger of being “exterminated”.

Hmmmm?

[Stubble]

In 2018 Bibi said 6 million jews were in danger of being “exterminated”.

Hmmmm?

Looks like for greater Israel to emerge, Iran is going to have to pay reparations for killing 6,000,000 jews in a holocaust.

I wonder if the Germans have a company making zyklon B in Iran like they did in Iraq.

The Balfour Declaration wasn't good enough, the mandate wasn't good enough and statehood isn't good enough.

From the Nile to the Euphrates, Israel will be....

I suppose there will be another 6,000,000 to set up the world supreme court, then 6,000,000 more to pack it full of rabbinical scholars and judges...

If I recall correctly, the Israeli ambassador told the un recently (in the past month) iran wants to genocide 6,000,000 jews...

[HansHill]

B-b-but thats fake because he kept lying about other numbers too!

[Nessie]

The historian's death toll is a range of 5 to 6 million. If the media had picked on 5 million as the commonly used death toll, so-called revisionists would have cherry-picked pre-war articles about 5 million Jews at risk and any reference to 5 million made during the war, and presented that as evidence of the preparation for a hoax.

[Stubble]

Nobody actually knows how many jews died during ww2 in the concentration camp system, or how many jews died in the ghettos and were killed by the einsatzgruppen, so, it's totally ok to say 6,000,000 because it is a 'careful estimate' and in no way a symbolic number

No, it's not ok. It is not only a predetermined number, it is symbolic.

[bombsaway]

The historian's death toll is a range of 5 to 6 million. If the media had picked on 5 million as the commonly used death toll, so-called revisionists would have cherry-picked pre-war articles about 5 million Jews at risk and any reference to 5 million made during the war, and presented that as evidence of the preparation for a hoax.

yes, this sums up my point pretty well about the meaninglessness of that figure. I mean there could be significance, but no one has demonstrated it, so belief here is silly. If there was a prophecy that Jews had in mind, they would have been writing about it at the time. Stubble assumed so I guess,

[Callafangers]

Lets verify if what the eyewitnesses say is true
Oh look, its all true
how do you know
because the eyewitnesses said so

Wash, rinse, repeat

Revisionists: "Did a lot of them lie, though?"

Exterminationists: "Uhh what do you mean by 'a lot'? That's subjective... A lot of things can be 'a lot'..." *continues frantically splitting hairs about meaning of 'a lot'***

[Archie]

Both of them are seriously claiming that it was "reasonable" to have determined the six million number in 1944. LOL.

Now. Bombsaway. This guy is on record multiple times in May 1944 saying that six million Jews HAD died. Past tense. With earlier examples that say X million Jews in peril or whatever you can maybe wriggle out of it by saying it's generic and not that relevant. But do you honestly not see the problem here? Do you really not see why it's a problem for them to be using the number in the middle of the war?

A reasonable estimate based on pre-war populations was 6-7 million Jews under Nazi control. And they believed (as did British intelligence) that they were all being killed. So that's where you get the number.

But some people did think 5 million were being killed, eg this from 1943 https://www.google.com/books/edition/Se ... frontcover IF you spent as much time looking for 6 million as 5 million, and found much more that would be one thing. But there's nothing systematic about what you're doing, it is silliness.

Hey someone used 6 million except talking about survivors? Any connection there?

https://www.nytimes.com/1918/10/18/arch ... -help.html

...

In January 1945, Jacob Lestchinsky published an estimate that six million Jews had died. This might be the earliest that had any purported statistical basis. Need I again state the obvious and say that this is too early for any reliable statistics to have been calculated?
“6,000,000 Jews Dead: Jacob Lestchinsky Estimates Reduction in Europe Since ‘39,” NYT, 8 Jan 1945, pg. 17

....

Due to known population figures and arrests by Nazis, which were being monitored by Jewish groups and national governments, such as the Polish Government in Exile and the Dutch civil service, it was possible, during the war, to estimate how many Jews were being killed. By 1945, it was being estimated to be 6 million. When Hoettl also used that death toll at Nuremberg, it is hardly surprising it stuck as a single figure. Historians buck that trend and prefer the range of 5 to 6 million.

That so many Jews had disappeared, whilst in Nazi captivity, was compelling circumstantial evidence to corroborate the eyewitness, documentary and other evidence of mass murders.

[Stubble]

The historian's death toll is a range of 5 to 6 million. If the media had picked on 5 million as the commonly used death toll, so-called revisionists would have cherry-picked pre-war articles about 5 million Jews at risk and any reference to 5 million made during the war, and presented that as evidence of the preparation for a hoax.

yes, this sums up my point pretty well about the meaninglessness of that figure. I mean there could be significance, but no one has demonstrated it, so belief here is silly. If there was a prophecy that Jews had in mind, they would have been writing about it at the time. Stubble assumed so I guess,

Dude, the 6,000,000 continues to be trotted out, to this day, against Iran now, and you are just like;

there's nothing to see here, this number has no special significance what so ever, and you can't prove that it does.

Lest we forget, Iraq apparently had gas chambers 'for every jew' and the evil Germans were making them zyklon B after all...

It never stops, it just keeps going and going.

As Israel literally commits genocide and jokes about it;

(there is also the prank calling Israelis claiming to be collecting money for the orphans of Gaza trend, which is also disgusting)

They claim that (insert country) is going to genocide them...

[bombsaway]

Dude, the 6,000,000 continues to be trotted out, to this day, against Iran now, and you are just like;

there's nothing to see here, this number has no special significance what so ever, and you can't prove that it does.

False, I've specified it has post-war significance, repeatedly

" After the war the narrative solidified, the number became enshrined, yes, but that's also not evidence of a concerted effort around it going back into the past"

https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=11474#p11474

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Br ... frontcover

"at the time of this writing (1943) five million Jews are in danger of extermination"

five million number enshrined, it's official

Just so we're clear, you are not attempting to explain the prominence of the 6 million, other than to say, other numbers were prominent too.

Got it. So Revisionists are justified in poking and prodding this issue until there is a satisfactory answer.

**Edit** Interestingly, this shreds your pal Nessie's argument that these numbers were based on *checks notes* the population records of the specific Jews materially at risk.

Nothing is shredded, it was unknown how many Jews in the USSR had fallen under Nazi control, how many were being used for labor. The idea that there was an extermination policy was not controversial at the time. British intelligence: "On the other hand we do know that the Germans are out to destroy Jews of any age unless they are fit for manual labour"

So within these parameters you make estimates, there's going to be variability

[HansHill]

it was unknown how many Jews in the USSR had fallen under Nazi control, how many were being used for labor.

Did you just accidentally admit its possible for a powerful Nation to obfuscate large populations?

This you?

To say - where did they go - is the linchpin is underselling the problem. Really it is that all the assertions about what actually happened ("resettlement", the conspiracy to fabricate documents, suppress and destroy documents, suppress non-orthodox witness statements) are unevidenced.

If you think resettlement of the kind orthodoxy does not believe happened is in fact evidenced, provide that evidence. We know that German Jews were sent into Russia in 41-42, so for you the challenge would be to evidence something else (those Jews being maintained in Russia - new Jews being sent there like the Reinhardt Jews, etc)

[Stubble]

How many were partisans?

https://www.academicstudiespress.com/9781644694930/

Jewish Partisans of the Soviet Union is a classic compilation of original Russian and Jewish sources on the anti-Nazi resistance in Eastern Europe. 

It is rooted in decades of research motivated by a desire to set the record straight on Jewish participation in resistance movements, a phenomenon often overlooked when not actively concealed. 

As the son of Jewish partisans in Nazi-occupied Eastern Europe, Jack Porter presents here the result of his decades-long research: first-hand accounts and interviews with survivors and partisans, as well as some of their original work, and a seminal English translation of Partisan Brotherhood, a historical document gathered by Russian-Jewish intellectuals in 1948 at the height of anti-Semitic hysteria, written mainly by non-Jewish Soviet partisan commanders recounting the deeds of the Jewish fighters in their units.

It was a non 0 number...

And lest we forget, conscripts;

https://www.timesofisrael.com/the-forgo ... -red-army/

Once a year, Israel’s Jewish war veterans don suit jackets and uniforms dripping in Red Army medals, the shiny bronzes and silvers pinned to their chests in tight rows like armor.

About 500,000 Jews served in the Soviet Red Army during World War II. Most of those still alive today — about 7,000 — are said to live in Israel.

[bombsaway]

it was unknown how many Jews in the USSR had fallen under Nazi control, how many were being used for labor.

Did you just accidentally admit its possible for a powerful Nation to obfuscate large populations?

This you?

To say - where did they go - is the linchpin is underselling the problem. Really it is that all the assertions about what actually happened ("resettlement", the conspiracy to fabricate documents, suppress and destroy documents, suppress non-orthodox witness statements) are unevidenced.

If you think resettlement of the kind orthodoxy does not believe happened is in fact evidenced, provide that evidence. We know that German Jews were sent into Russia in 41-42, so for you the challenge would be to evidence something else (those Jews being maintained in Russia - new Jews being sent there like the Reinhardt Jews, etc)

Yes, at that time unknown, you could just make reasonable guesses, which have since been largely confirmed by post war censuses and German documents themselves. This isn't much of an own, there's a ton of evidence here, all corroborating to varying degree, and nothing for the fabled resettlement. W regards to post war Jewish numbers you have to rely on speculative, totally non evidenced notions like hundreds of thousands of Polish Jews being repatriated in the USSR concealing their ancestry and so forth while remaining silent on what happened to them after they left the ghettos.

[bombsaway]

How many were partisans?

https://www.academicstudiespress.com/9781644694930/

Jewish Partisans of the Soviet Union is a classic compilation of original Russian and Jewish sources on the anti-Nazi resistance in Eastern Europe. 

It is rooted in decades of research motivated by a desire to set the record straight on Jewish participation in resistance movements, a phenomenon often overlooked when not actively concealed. 

As the son of Jewish partisans in Nazi-occupied Eastern Europe, Jack Porter presents here the result of his decades-long research: first-hand accounts and interviews with survivors and partisans, as well as some of their original work, and a seminal English translation of Partisan Brotherhood, a historical document gathered by Russian-Jewish intellectuals in 1948 at the height of anti-Semitic hysteria, written mainly by non-Jewish Soviet partisan commanders recounting the deeds of the Jewish fighters in their units.

It was a non 0 number...

And lest we forget, conscripts;

https://www.timesofisrael.com/the-forgo ... -red-army/

Once a year, Israel’s Jewish war veterans don suit jackets and uniforms dripping in Red Army medals, the shiny bronzes and silvers pinned to their chests in tight rows like armor.

About 500,000 Jews served in the Soviet Red Army during World War II. Most of those still alive today — about 7,000 — are said to live in Israel.

Things like this is why there's variability in the estimates of number killed.

[Stubble]

That gives me an idea for a thread Bombsaway, something along the lines of 'Who is Considered a Holocaust Victim According to USHMM', or something along those lines.