Why "the hoax" would necessitate a conspiracy involving hundreds of thousands

[Callafangers]

[...]

Not only are some of those quotes actually Stubble's and not mine, your notion is totally baseless. Centralized direction of organization and initiatives prevents the overwhelming majority of players from necessarily knowing the bigger picture. I've discussed this in the past with the Manhattan Project as an example. The people coordinating programs (or prompting/accumulating testimony, or delegating tasks, etc.) do not need to inform anyone else not directly involved in that coordination of what the broader motivations are, or what has been omitted, etc.

You're really grasping here, bombsaway.

I'm not that interested in your proclamations, I think you could convince yourself that the Nazis transported the Jews into Turkey if you wanted to.

It is undeniable that centralized organizations have no need to disclose the larger initiatives with those whom they delegate tasks and assignments to.

Anyway, in Goebbels diary he wrote:

“The procedure is a pretty barbaric one and not to be described here more definitely. Not much will remain of the Jews. On the whole it can be said that about 60 per cent of them will have to be liquidated whereas only about 40 per cent can be used for forced labor.”

Yeah, "anyway".

You inspire me, bombsaway. You inspired me to repost a past thread on Goebbels, where it is shown beyond any reasonable doubt that Goebbels recognized expulsion and quarantine (for resettlement) as the official policy -- not 'extermination'. See here: https://www.codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=354

The Korherr report has the Polish Jewish population dropping by close to 80%.

Of the surviving ghetto inhabitants, we can say probably 60-80% were also survivors of resettlement.

The Korherr report describes movement, not 'gassings' or mass shootings of any kind.

viewtopic.php?p=9114#p9114

referencing this post, if there were 200,000 ghetto testimonies that don't reflect there should be, under normal conditions we could expect 600-800,000 ones that do. These people were silenced, at least relatively. The number zero is quite important, it necessitates multiple layers or levels of containment. According to you, people were being told to amplify testimonies about the ghettos, but any testimony regarding resettlement is not permissible. What's the explanation for this? In wartime I might understand not being allowed to question things, but people are going to get upset about their work and accounts not being recognized and demand explanation. What's a plausible explanation that could be given to them?

You've been thoroughly debunked on the numbers; I do not need to repeat myself. The numbers of testimony gathered for the 'Holocaust' were due to very calculated, well-organized Jewish networks aiming to gather and align the Jewish spoken narratives with those atrocity narratives which were being widely disseminated in Allied propaganda networks. The patterns of falsehoods in these gathered testimonies alone is enough to largely invalidate them, even categorically, as a source. But the nature of the gathering itself is every bit as suspect, given there is no reason to presume the 'gatherers' had truth among their priorities. Political incentives and personal or ideological motivations in this period were exceptionally relevant, especially for certain groups whose motives are more pronounced (e.g. Zionism, revenge, reparations, geopolitical power grabs).

You lean into such poor-quality evidence for one, very simple reason: it is all you have.

[bombsaway]

You inspire me, bombsaway. You inspired me to repost a past thread on Goebbels, where it is shown beyond any reasonable doubt that Goebbels recognized expulsion and quarantine (for resettlement) as the official policy -- not 'extermination'. See here: https://www.codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=354

I was using Goebbels diary as evidence that (at the very least) most of the ghettoized Jews were transferred out, which would mean that ghetto testimonies should reflect this.

Re liquidation I think when you look through documents of that period and you see it being used countless times in reference people as meaning unequivocally mean "kill" and never to mean expulsion or anything, else it's reasonable to believe he meant 'kill in the above except ... eg

We see in this compilation [of facts] how correct our Jewish policy is, and how necessary it is to continue, in the most radical way, our old course of action, and to ensure that the 40,000 Jews still in Berlin, who in reality are freed felons with nothing left to lose, are quickly either concentrated (konzentriert) or evacuated (evakuiert).The best thing, of course, would be liquidation (Liquidierung).

I'm sure you'll have some explanation for this, you're a reasonably smart guy, but I don't think I can really be blamed for my interpretation. Above Goebbels uses liquidate as explicitly meaning something else other than 'expulsion'. Even Dalton in his interpretation sees this as meaning kill. Going back to the diary entry in question, your most sensible argument is probably that Goebbels had a brain fart and used the wrong word. Sheesh.

[Callafangers]

Re liquidation I think when you look through documents of that period and you see it being used countless times in reference people as meaning unequivocally mean "kill" and never to mean expulsion or anything, else it's reasonable to believe he meant 'kill in the above except ... eg

We see in this compilation [of facts] how correct our Jewish policy is, and how necessary it is to continue, in the most radical way, our old course of action, and to ensure that the 40,000 Jews still in Berlin, who in reality are freed felons with nothing left to lose, are quickly either concentrated (konzentriert) or evacuated (evakuiert).The best thing, of course, would be liquidation (Liquidierung).

I'm sure you'll have some explanation for this, you're a reasonably smart guy, but I don't think I can really be blamed for my interpretation. Above Goebbels uses liquidate as explicitly meaning something else other than 'expulsion'. Even Dalton in his interpretation sees this as meaning kill. Going back to the diary entry in question, your most sensible argument is probably that Goebbels had a brain fart and used the wrong word. Sheesh.

I don't need to explain much on this one. Goebbels clearly indicates above that the necessity is to continue the 'old course of action' which he confirms explicitly as concentration or [literal] evacuation. In fact, he explicitly differentiates this from murder, here, where he is obviously only expressing his opinion and not tying this back to the "old course of action" he references.

As for his meaning of the word "liquidation", the context definitely matters. We can see here, in an entry of May 1942 (with the 'Holocaust' in full-swing), Goebbels makes clear that "liquidate the Jewish danger" (and in reference to Jews as people) by no means refers to killing:

May 30, 1942

Germans are involved in subversive movements only if the Jews seduce them. Therefore one must liquidate [liquidieren] the Jewish danger, cost it what it will. How little Jews can in reality adjust themselves to West European life can be seen from the fact that, where they are led back into the ghetto, they quickly become ghettoized. West European civilization represents only an external coat of paint to them. However, there are also Jewish elements that work with a dangerous brutality and vindictiveness. Therefore, the Führer does not want the Jews to be evacuated to Siberia. There, under the harshest living conditions, they would undoubtedly again develop a strong life-element. He would much prefer to resettle them in central Africa. There they would live in a climate that would certainly not make them strong and resistant. In any case, the Führer’s goal is to make Western Europe completely Jew-free. They can no longer have their homeland here.

Here, with his use of "liquidate", Goebbels in indisputably talking about resettlement, which he elaborates upon throughout the same paragraph. It is clear that no final destination has been decided as to where these Jews (held temporarily in the East) should ultimately end up. Ideas are still being thrown around (Siberia, central Africa). But Goebbels lets it suffice to say that the overall goal is to make Western Europe completely Jew-free. That is, removal.

Goebbels did not lie to himself in his own diary. And if you read more of the entries, he would have had to have done so extensively, inventing entire narratives and conversations which never happened... in his own private diary... to himself...

[Nessie]

The resettlement of millions of Jews, in a way that means they can be passed off as having been killed, in a hoax, requires the cooperation of millions of Jews. Since Jews began to disappear, supposedly dead, but in fact resettled, from 1941 onwards, means that the Nazis also had to be heavily involved in the hoax.

[Nazgul]

The resettlement of millions of Jews, in a way that means they can be passed off as having been killed, in a hoax, requires the cooperation of millions of Jews. Since Jews began to disappear, supposedly dead, but in fact resettled, from 1941 onwards, means that the Nazis also had to be heavily involved in the hoax.

The hoax is ignoring the fact that millions of them were contained in non SS camps, these are called Jewish labour camps or zwangarbeitslager für juden. Remember there were over 5000 of these.

[Nessie]

The resettlement of millions of Jews, in a way that means they can be passed off as having been killed, in a hoax, requires the cooperation of millions of Jews. Since Jews began to disappear, supposedly dead, but in fact resettled, from 1941 onwards, means that the Nazis also had to be heavily involved in the hoax.

The hoax is ignoring the fact that millions of them were contained in non SS camps, these are called Jewish labour camps or zwangarbeitslager für juden. Remember there were over 5000 of these.

You have never named any of those camps or produced evidence as to their Jewish population in 1944-5.

[Nazgul]

You have never named any of those camps or produced evidence as to their Jewish population in 1944-5.

There is no single muster for a camp, there are reports of Jews moving all over the place as work is needed. I posted the names of about 3000 of those camps, butterfangners found more in the Ukraine, some had no names. All were verified by the inmates. You are not interested in the real story but hold onto some nonsense like some buzzing fly stuck on glue paper. You have been told this is work in progress, the clues hard to find, like Bobryusk where over 3000 Jewish men, only a dozen told their tale after returning to the camps of Poland. You must also remember that Jews only knew their local environment, due to strict quarantine; what they did not know they made up.

[Nessie]

You have never named any of those camps or produced evidence as to their Jewish population in 1944-5.

There is no single muster for a camp, there are reports of Jews moving all over the place as work is needed. I posted the names of about 3000 of those camps, butterfangners found more in the Ukraine, some had no names. All were verified by the inmates. You are not interested in the real story but hold onto some nonsense like some buzzing fly stuck on glue paper. You have been told this is work in progress, the clues hard to find, like Bobryusk where over 3000 Jewish men, only a dozen told their tale after returning to the camps of Poland. You must also remember that Jews only knew their local environment, due to strict quarantine; what they did not know they made up.

You have produced maps, with dots, no camp names, no camp Jewish populations in 1944-5.

Why would the Nazis join in a conspiracy to hoax them murdering Jews, by hiding millions of Jews?

[Nazgul]

The resettlement of millions of Jews, in a way that means they can be passed off as having been killed, in a hoax, requires the cooperation of millions of Jews. Since Jews began to disappear, supposedly dead, but in fact resettled, from 1941 onwards, means that the Nazis also had to be heavily involved in the hoax.

They were never resettled, that is a perpetration from people like you. In agnostic circles there is a term, the "God of the gaps" to replace what we do not know with a god. There is a human tendency to place unknown anything, with myth and superstition; many despite evidence to the contrary continue with those thoughts until their last gasp, a rejection of scientific understanding.
It is estimated 20 million perished in Europe during WWII and that varies by 5 million. Estimates are given as the facts are not available. As you, Korherr or anyone else does not really know what it is to be a Jew, how many there were, everything is supposition built on supposition.
Of course if a Jew (whatever that is) goes missing he or she was holocausted. This is the holocaust of the gaps.

[Nessie]

The resettlement of millions of Jews, in a way that means they can be passed off as having been killed, in a hoax, requires the cooperation of millions of Jews. Since Jews began to disappear, supposedly dead, but in fact resettled, from 1941 onwards, means that the Nazis also had to be heavily involved in the hoax.

They were never resettled, that is a perpetration from people like you. In agnostic circles there is a term, the "God of the gaps" to replace what we do not know with a god. There is a human tendency to place unknown anything, with myth and superstition; many despite evidence to the contrary continue with those thoughts until their last gasp, a rejection of scientific understanding.
It is estimated 20 million perished in Europe during WWII and that varies by 5 million. Estimates are given as the facts are not available. As you, Korherr or anyone else does not really know what it is to be a Jew, how many there were, everything is supposition built on supposition.
Of course if a Jew (whatever that is) goes missing he or she was holocausted. This is the holocaust of the gaps.

If millions of Jews the Nazis had sent to camps and ghettos 1939-44, had not been killed, then where were they living in 1944? By 1944 the last ghetto, at Lodz, had closed down. A-B, the largest camp, had a smaller population in 1944, than it had had, in 1943. That means the Nazis must have been active participants in the hoax Jews were being mass murdered, by hiding them. That makes no sense.

Your comment, they were never resettled, makes no sense. If they were not killed, they must have been sent somewhere to live.

[Nazgul]

where were they living in 1944?
Your comment, they were never resettled, makes no sense. If they were not killed, they must have been sent somewhere to live.

Here are all the Zwangarbeitlager für Juden 1944 as far as currently known by at least one person living there. You cannot go into denial on this, this is fact.

[Nessie]

where were they living in 1944?
Your comment, they were never resettled, makes no sense. If they were not killed, they must have been sent somewhere to live.

Here are all the Zwangarbeitlager für Juden 1944 as far as currently known by at least one person living there. You cannot go into denial on this, this is fact.

Dots on a map. Which camp does each dot represent and what was its Jewish population in 1944?

[Nazgul]

https://www.deutschland-ein-denkmal.de/
Look it up yourself. You have no interest in the reality, go back, put on your headphones and listen to music. Out of all the Jews of the time, no breeding allowed, there was only natural attrition and 14f13 for a while, including typhus, mental issues and congenital race medical issues. There were the issues of food being withheld by criminal Kapos. About 1.5 million people would have perished by natural attrition similar to the Phillipines in the 70s. Another 2 million possibly succumed to deprivations of cold, poor food. I mentioned there were an estimated 5 thousand camps to cater for 5.5 million. On average each camp would need to host1.1k people, but as we know in 44 camps like Skyz Kam held 8000 at any time. There were many more camps than these.

[Stubble]

https://www.deutschland-ein-denkmal.de/
Look it up yourself. You have no interest in the reality, go back, put on your headphones and listen to music.

Site returns 'under maintenance'.

[Nazgul]

Site returns 'under maintenance'.

These people are historians and not revisionists. Within months after posting the evidence of the transports linked to the camps mentioned on their site, they went off line. They had the dates and all the information which Nessie could have found if he followed the links I posted a few years ago. I merely correlated their research with the Transport Schedules to Treblinka. I also noted there were 300 Jewish Labour Camps in Austria for Hungarian Jews at the time when they were alleged to have been sent for gassing at Birkenau. One camps was confirmed by Peter Lantos.