Cremation Rate at Auschwitz

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Stubble
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Re: Cremation Rate at Auschwitz

Post by Stubble »

My point was that the ovens were specd to run at 800 but could get hot enough to be over 1000, so much so that cool air had to be blown in. The gasifier, the fire box, whatever, had this extra capacity, unless you're saying the corpses supplied that.
No, they were designed to be loaded at 800°C. That's the bottom of operation. The top of the window is 1000°C, pretty obviously, from the instructions.

You could also check the dataplate, you could check the spec sheet, you could look at the performance curve or you could consult the design or a technical manual.

There is also Mattogno's work on the subject, that has collated said data and presented it.

/shrug
were to guess why no t4 personnel were chosen to perform gassing that had experience with gassing, it would be because THERE WERE NONE.
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bombsaway
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Re: Cremation Rate at Auschwitz

Post by bombsaway »

Your boy Carlo uses 800 as the "average operating temperature" for his calculations.

Page 27

"The heat loss by conduction and radiation is determined by the temperature difference between the inner wall of the furnace and the outside. If the mass of the refractory brickwork of the furnace is, for example, 6,000 kg, the heat required
(i.e. lost) to bring this mass up to an average operating temperature of 800°C can be evaluated according to the equation "
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Stubble
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Re: Cremation Rate at Auschwitz

Post by Stubble »

Unfortunately, he's no relation that I'm aware of, though, if he were my son, I'd certainly be proud.

The furnace was designed to operate inside a window.

Now, for cremation your 'window' is 800°C~ (some room for drop) and 1000°C~ (this is actually above recommendation for cremation). Now, if you want to design an 'efficient' furnace, you want it to 'hold a bead' (track flat on paper) as close to the bottom of the window as you can. At 800°C, loaded, you are close to the bottom but you have some wiggle.

Regardless, as you reduce the load, the temp is going to creep on you. Once you start to get creep, it is safe to assume you could load another body into the furnace.

Another option would be to vent.

Now, just because it was designed to be 'efficient' doesn't mean that it didn't have a performance window, or a performance curve. Both of those can be consulted. The 'average' temperature isn't the 'spec' the window is. The 'average' is the 'average', also a 'target' temp.

Think about it like the window sticker on your car telling you your fuel economy. There's a top and a bottom in a 'window'. Then there are 2 'targets', one for city, one for highway. Same kind of deal, if you put a body in at 800°c, it will burn at around 800°c (not exactly 800°c) until it's load on the furnace is reduced, at which time, the temp will start to creep.

I'm also going to point out that running the box near the bottom loaded (with 1 body per muffle) makes the idea of cremating more than 1 body per muffle more difficult, not less difficult, as you will likely fall out of temp range. I again point to the testimony regarding what happened when 2 corpses were loaded into 1 muffle.

At Kremas II and III, since they were 3 muffle ovens, if I were to cremate 2 or more bodies in 1 hole, I'd put them in the center muffle as there is more chance of success that way, although even then, I would not provide a guarantee.

This isn't helping me find my missing jews though.
were to guess why no t4 personnel were chosen to perform gassing that had experience with gassing, it would be because THERE WERE NONE.
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bombsaway
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Re: Cremation Rate at Auschwitz

Post by bombsaway »

What I'm concerned with is the total heat put into the system. Assuming enough heat being put in, and enough flow out, multiple bodies should burn faster than one at a time. I don't know what the numbers here. I don't know if burning 4 bodies sequentially means you can burn 10 in that time if you use simultaneous cremation with enough heat in. The best ratio might be 2:3

But this is what we were discussing, fundamentally, in the other thread - heat output and flow. maybe that's not a good fit for this thread either but you seemed to want me to continue the discussion elsewhere.
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bombsaway
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Re: Cremation Rate at Auschwitz

Post by bombsaway »

Stubble wrote: Tue Apr 08, 2025 5:10 am
This isn't helping me find my missing jews though.
If I didn't think your quest was as futile as looking for unicorns or big foot, I would advise you to look through newly available sources. The old ones have been well combed through. I pointed you to the Kues and the TECOAR in depth examinations I believe.
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Stubble
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Re: Cremation Rate at Auschwitz

Post by Stubble »

bombsaway wrote: Tue Apr 08, 2025 5:38 am What I'm concerned with is the total heat put into the system. Assuming enough heat being put in, and enough flow out, multiple bodies should burn faster than one at a time. I don't know what the numbers here. I don't know if burning 4 bodies sequentially means you can burn 10 in that time if you use simultaneous cremation with enough heat in. The best ratio might be 2:3

But this is what we were discussing, fundamentally, in the other thread - heat output and flow. maybe that's not a good fit for this thread either but you seemed to want me to continue the discussion elsewhere.
Have you considered, measuring the box, or the uh, muffle? One of the first things I think you are going to need to consider, is, how you are going to get more bodies in to the thing. Then there is the problem of getting enough heat in the box to send the bodies up the flue as smoke. The first thing you are going to need to do though is figure out how to shove 500lbs into a 120lb sack.

If you don't like the numbers in the books, you are going to need to get your own. There is enough source to get them, they aren't going to be wildly different me thinks.

Again, you have all the variables you need in the form of building plans, prints of the cremation ovens, etc. It's in Mattogno's books. If it isn't in there, it is cited and can be gleaned.

I'd say there are test tables too, but, we aren't going to be looking at those I guess.

/shrug

To me just looking at the box and the muffle it is patently obvious these cremation ovens were designed for 1 coupse per muffle. I don't think the Germans 'hid' any unicorn horn in there or stuffed them full of arcane magic. Of course, that didn't stop me looking at the prints for the cremation ovens, but, that didn't lead me to believe that the equipment was oversized by a factor of 1 or anything, what's less 4 or more.

Now, I haven't modeled these things, it's my opinion that's already been done. I also didn't personally calculate throughput. It's imminently doable though, the data is there.

I don't think you are going to find enough energy in there to cremate 4-8 bodies per muffle than you think I will ever find these missing jews.

I feel it fair to point out, I already can't find 6,000,000 of them that the Germans had access to, what's less 6,000,000 of them in a hole some place. It is my opinion that out of the 3,000,000~ jews the Germans had under their control, 6,000,000 apparently died and 5,000,000 apparently lived.

/shrug
were to guess why no t4 personnel were chosen to perform gassing that had experience with gassing, it would be because THERE WERE NONE.
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bombsaway
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Re: Cremation Rate at Auschwitz

Post by bombsaway »

Stubble wrote: Tue Apr 08, 2025 6:29 am

If you don't like the numbers in the books, you are going to need to get your own. There is enough source to get them, they aren't going to be wildly different me thinks.
It's really not my argument to make. I'm not asserting that multiple body cremation was impossible or virtually so. This is your argument to make, and I refuse to to do the work for you. It's weak to just be like look through this 1200 page book, the numbers are in there. I have no idea what numbers you are referring to.

On the other hand when I say, what happened to the 1.5 million or so Polish Jews deported into Russia during Reinhardt and the response is head scratch, I can make an argument from a comparative point of view that the orthodox narrative is on the whole, many orders of magnitude more evidenced than whatever you believe in. You've heard this before I know, you say it bothers you but I'm skeptical since 99% of your activity on this forum has been the usual "debunk" material.

It's not about making a list of 6 million Jews and crossing off names, you're being a silly willy, it's about answering the most basic historical question, which is 'what happened'. You're quibbling about relatively minor issues, when on the other hand your belief system stands on a cloud. Imagine if the Holocaust story was, there were all these Jews and they were mysteriously killed, we don't know how, gas maybe, it makes sense doesn't it?

You actually wouldn't be able to debunk any of this, because there would be nothing to debunk. No gas chambers, no witnesses, it's fool proof.
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Wetzelrad
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Re: Cremation Rate at Auschwitz

Post by Wetzelrad »

bombsaway wrote: Tue Apr 08, 2025 12:40 amCan you put it in your own words? Present the argument of why it's a clear maximum for Birkenau, or at least provide all the relevant quotations from Mattogno (this would include his analysis plus any documents he's relying on).

Imagine if instead of making arguments I was just like look at this HC blog post, it will explain everything. This is a discussion forum.
Apparently no one likes Mattogno! Here's the argument. Cremation capacity is limited by coke throughput, and coke throughput is established by these three sources:

Jahrling: 35 kg/hr/hearth
Colombo: 36 kg/hr/hearth
Kessler: 33.3 kg/hr/hearth

On Rudolf Jahrling, Mattogno writes this on p.375ff:
The Aktenvermerk (file memo) of 17 March 1943, written by the civilian employee Jährling and established “according to data supplied by Topf & Söhne” contains an estimate of the coke consumption of the four Birkenau Crematoria... The heading “10 Feuerungen = 350 kg/stdl.” (10 hearths = 350 kg/hr) means that the five triple-muffle furnaces located in each of the Crematoria II and III had a total of 10 gasifier hearths, two per furnace, each with a grate throughput rate of 35 kg/hr of coke, just as the 8-muffle furnaces of Crematoria IV and V had four hearths each, each one with a throughput of 35 kg of coke per hour.
A 1926 engineering handbook is referenced on p.303:
According to the Colombo Engineering Handbook, the throughput of a hearth grate under natural draft is about 90 to 120 kg of coal per hour per square meter (Colombo 1926, p. 398).
Mattogno explains that the triple-muffle furnaces had a surface area of 0.3 square meters, which works out to 36 kg/hr for the high estimate. The handbook also informs us that forced draft could increase the throughput by up to 50%, however Birkenau did not use forced draft devices.

Mattogno describes Richard Kessler's experiments beginning on p.65. In short, there was a controversy in the cremation industry over what was economical and efficient, so scientific experiments were needed. Kessler separately tested natural gas, coke, and coke briquettes. On p.67 Mattogno describes the total coke usage:
a total of 9.14 Zentner (457 kg) of which, as we have seen, 0.42 Zentner remained unconsumed, so that the total effective consumption amounts to 436 kg.
Then on p.377 he casually divides 457 "by the total operating time of the furnace (13 hours and 42 minutes)", to reach 33.3 kg/hr. You might say he should have used the 436 kg figure instead, but this wouldn't help your case.

One thing you may be confused about is how coke was loaded. This is what the oven looked like. Coke was added at the hatch at no.16, and it rested on the grate at no.21.
Crema II drawing.jpg
Crema II drawing.jpg (82.73 KiB) Viewed 227 times
You said that you could "add more fuel to maintain the internal temperature." Certainly fuel was added, but it doesn't follow that just because the fuel was piled higher it would burn more quickly. Imagine for a moment what the implications of that would be. The operator would have to take special care not to overload the shaft, because any overload would waste coke and overheat the oven, but he would also have to constantly load more coke nuggets in to maintain peak efficiency. That doesn't make sense. While I'm unfamiliar with the physics behind this, it's obvious that there must have been some limiting factor to the fire, so I will trust that the area of the grate was the limiting factor here.

It should also just be common sense that if you want to cremate many bodies, then you want to maximize heat energy, so the first thing you would want is a fire bigger than 0.3 square meters. So they should have built accordingly. The fact that they didn't suggests 1 body/muffle was always the intent. Or if burning multiple bodies concurrently was as simple as piling more fuel in the shaft, someone should have figured that out earlier so they didn't have to build so many ovens.
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Wetzelrad
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Re: Cremation Rate at Auschwitz

Post by Wetzelrad »

bombsaway wrote: Tue Apr 08, 2025 3:47 amMy point was that the ovens were specd to run at 800 but could get hot enough to be over 1000, so much so that cool air had to be blown in. The gasifier, the fire box, whatever, had this extra capacity, unless you're saying the corpses supplied that.
Well yes, of course they could reach above 800 Celsius. My stove and my grill are also capable of reaching temperatures far above what is strictly safe or intended if I leave them running empty. But that doesn't mean they will hold that temp while cooking, because food will offset it with specific heat and evaporation.
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Stubble
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Re: Cremation Rate at Auschwitz

Post by Stubble »

Well, the first objection to the idea of cramming multiple corpses into the muffle is the physical constraint presented, by the muffle.

The second is that the furnace is going to yield an 800°c box loaded. If you over load it by a factor of 1, just a factor of 1, you are going to fall out of range for cremation.

The maximum throughput is going to be around 35kg of coke per hour, give or take a few pounds.

This is established by the coke usage.

So far as the missing jews, I'm still looking. I've been finding Hungarian jews, for what that's worth. I found some Polish jews in Mexico that were a big to do as well. Some of them went to Missouri. I didn't find 1.5 million of them yet though.

It's, on the list.
were to guess why no t4 personnel were chosen to perform gassing that had experience with gassing, it would be because THERE WERE NONE.
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Nessie
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Re: Cremation Rate at Auschwitz

Post by Nessie »

Stubble wrote: Tue Apr 08, 2025 2:39 pm ....

So far as the missing jews, I'm still looking. I've been finding Hungarian jews, for what that's worth.
How many Hungarian Jews, sent on transports to A-B, who were not registered to work there, have you found?
I found some Polish jews in Mexico that were a big to do as well. Some of them went to Missouri.
Can you evidence they had been arrested by the Nazis during the war?
I didn't find 1.5 million of them yet though.

It's, on the list.
You need to find more than 5 million.
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Stubble
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Re: Cremation Rate at Auschwitz

Post by Stubble »

Nessie wrote: Tue Apr 08, 2025 2:43 pm
Stubble wrote: Tue Apr 08, 2025 2:39 pm ....

So far as the missing jews, I'm still looking. I've been finding Hungarian jews, for what that's worth.
How many Hungarian Jews, sent on transports to A-B, who were not registered to work there, have you found?
I found some Polish jews in Mexico that were a big to do as well. Some of them went to Missouri.
Can you evidence they had been arrested by the Nazis during the war?
I didn't find 1.5 million of them yet though.

It's, on the list.
You need to find more than 5 million.
There are other threads for that.

They weren't blown out of the chimney at Auschwitz Birkenau and shot in to space though.
were to guess why no t4 personnel were chosen to perform gassing that had experience with gassing, it would be because THERE WERE NONE.
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Fred Ziffel
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Re: Cremation Rate at Auschwitz

Post by Fred Ziffel »

Found this
Mattogno, Neither Proof nor Trace, P. 11
see attached
Seemingly got the year wrong in the notes?
Attachments
1940 letter about bodies per hour.JPG
1940 letter about bodies per hour.JPG (172.65 KiB) Viewed 40 times
I do not believe anything one is not allowed to question
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