Cremation Rate at Auschwitz

[Stubble]

A couple things.

1) this isn't my work. The foundations come from extant documentation and a series of books on the matter.

2) so far as it goes, what it is needs to be clearly defined. If it is shoving 8 bodies on the same liter into the muffle, for example, that's demonstrably false without even considering the throughput of the furnace. Now, obviously people were cremated at Birkenau in the crematoria there. In some severe cases of typhus and typhoid, with living skeletons dying from wasting, I have no problem saying that 2 of them may have been shoved in one muffle head to foot on the litter. That's not the orthodox claim though.

8 healthy fresh transports from Hungary aren't going to fit in the muffle, I don't care if you stack them 'with German efficiency'. Neither will 4 or 5. That's the claim, and you can't even shove that litter into the muffle, I do don't know why we are already bickering over usage of coke that was never delivered to dispose of more bodies than you can fit in the furnace and fully obliterate in 15 minutes so you can get to 1,000,000+ sent up the chimney as smoke.

/shrug

Regardless, this isn't my current path, so, I'm going to dip out. I'll come back when I get around to going back over the furnaces after I get done searching for missing jews.

I'm striking other irons Bombsaway, glhf.

[TlsMS93]

A couple things.

1) this isn't my work. The foundations come from extant documentation and a series of books on the matter.

2) so far as it goes, what it is needs to be clearly defined. If it is shoving 8 bodies on the same liter into the muffle, for example, that's demonstrably false without even considering the throughput of the furnace. Now, obviously people were cremated at Birkenau in the crematoria there. In some severe cases of typhus and typhoid, with living skeletons dying from wasting, I have no problem saying that 2 of them may have been shoved in one muffle head to foot on the litter. That's not the orthodox claim though.

8 healthy fresh transports from Hungary aren't going to fit in the muffle, I don't care if you stack them 'with German efficiency'. Neither will 4 or 5. That's the claim, and you can't even shove that litter into the muffle, I do don't know why we are already bickering over usage of coke that was never delivered to dispose of more bodies than you can fit in the furnace and fully obliterate in 15 minutes so you can get to 1,000,000+ sent up the chimney as smoke.

/shrug

Regardless, this isn't my current path, so, I'm going to dip out. I'll come back when I get around to going back over the furnaces after I get done searching for missing jews.

I'm striking other irons Bombsaway, glhf.

Unless we leave some people emaciated and build furnaces like those of the time to end this discussion through practical tests, what counts is the testimony of the furnace engineers, 1 person per muffle and 1 hour of cremation.

The words of the Sonderkommandos here are intoxicated with Allied propaganda and revolt against their captors, anything that deviates from the rules of the operating manuals will harm the intended purpose and not help.

The AI ​​will say this, that the Nazis did not care about the rules of operation of the furnaces, they ordered them to operate beyond the capacity and respect of the victims, as if anything the Nazis wanted they could achieve and that is why we cannot discuss how technically this was possible.

[bombsaway]

A couple things.

1) this isn't my work. The foundations come from extant documentation and a series of books on the matter.

Yes but you believe it right? A comment like this seems like you're vouching for it

"You understand that the size of the cope, the muffles, the flue, the gasifier, the fire box, these are known quantities."

This is in response to me saying it seemed like you were making assumptions.

This is the flaw in your thinking that I was point out, you taking Mattogno's and Callafangers words for it without properly vetting.

[Stubble]

You are going to have to define 'it' again. You are conflating 'it' again.

If you don't like Mattogno's numbers, as I said before, check source. I thought I was as transparent as glass about that. Again, the data, the specifications and the blueprints are extant. If you want to reinvent the wheel, feel free, I'm not going to stop you.

I also said i was due more diligence.

Mr Hill gave me source for the table, let me grab it real quick for you.

Footnote 595 per Mattogno: "This is obtained by dividing the coke consumption (457 kg) by the total operating time of the furnace (13 hours and 42 minutes)."

[bombsaway]

You are going to have to define 'it' again. You are conflating 'it' again.

If you don't like Mattogno's numbers, as I said before, check source. I thought I was as transparent as glass about that. Again, the data, the specifications and the blueprints are extant. If you want to reinvent the wheel, feel free, I'm not going to stop you.

I also said i was due more diligence.

Mr Hill gave me source for the table, let me grab it real quick for you.

Footnote 595 per Mattogno: "This is obtained by dividing the coke consumption (457 kg) by the total operating time of the furnace (13 hours and 42 minutes)."

"This demonstrates that the
normal combustion rate of the hearth was about 33.3 kg of coke601 per hour all
through the cremation, without major differences between preheating and cremating periods."

"normal combustion" =/= maximum

Furthermore it seems to be results determined from crematory experiments made in the 20s, though Mattogno is so convoluted (I believe this is like a design feature -- he confuses himself), it's hard to tell for sure.

What "it" is, is your belief that clear maximums exist for what the furnaces at Birkenau were capable of.

[Stubble]

What "it" is, is your belief that clear maximums exist for what the furnaces at Birkenau were capable of.

Given the extant data, no doubt in my mind. You have doubts about any particular variable? Or you don't think performance data, blueprints and test data (kindly included from the Kremas) is sufficient?

[bombsaway]

What "it" is, is your belief that clear maximums exist for what the furnaces at Birkenau were capable of.

Given the extant data, no doubt in my mind. You have doubts about any particular variable? Or you don't think performance data, blueprints and test data (kindly included from the Kremas) is sufficient?

Doubts? It just hasn't been provided. It would be silly for me to believe in something without seeing evidence for it. You expect me to go look, but it doesn't seem to be in that book and the references provided by Hans Hill and Callafangers don't show it either.

You can start with the maximum output of the burner, once you've properly resolved the case of the 'missing Jews'

[Wetzelrad]

Furthermore it seems to be results determined from crematory experiments made in the 20s, though Mattogno is so convoluted (I believe this is like a design feature -- he confuses himself), it's hard to tell for sure.

If you don't like Kessler's recorded coke consumption, you can instead use Jahrling's figure from a couple pages above that. 35 kg/hr. Or the records from Gusen below that which indicate 30 kg/hr.

"normal combustion" =/= maximum

So your theory is that coke throughput changed over time, contrary to how the ovens were designed, but worse, you seem to think that increased consumption in one hour would not be cancelled out by the requisite decrease in another hour? Do you know what an average is?

If the science clearly shows that it's impossible, you've blown a huge hole in the story, that's for sure.

Funny, that hasn't stopped you guys before!

[Stubble]

The case of the missing jews is a particularly sticky one.

Again, with this particular problem, what you want to look at is 'throughput'. There are hard limits, on the gasifier for example. There are also hard limits on the box. It doesn't dynamically change size to accommodate things after all. Another hard limit is the size of the muffle, again, it isn't dynamic.

There are of course other considerations, these facets of the problem should be small enough to be easily resolved without having to treat the system as a whole to determine throughput, as the gasifier is a bottleneck.

Nothing in Mattogno's work 'stood out' to me as 'flawed'. It's really quite dry and thorough. I'm surprised you take issue with it, but, I suppose I shouldn't be.

One thing that does stand out to me is that lack of coke staged for the incineration of 1,100,000 people. Another thing that stands out to me is the distinct lack of aerial reconnaissance photographs showing open air cremations on pyres on the very days they are said to have happened.

They had plenty of coke at monowitz, but, that would be a bit of a haul for the tender crew.

/shrug

You unironically think the cremation ovens at Auschwitz Birkenau could simultaneously cremate between 4-8 bodies at a time? That, don't strike you as unreasonable, at all?

How you gonna cram all that meat into the box through the 70cm by 70cm hole in its face? I know, you take them off the litter first, right, that will save you all the space you need, then you just, load them by hand in a hot box...

[bombsaway]

Furthermore it seems to be results determined from crematory experiments made in the 20s, though Mattogno is so convoluted (I believe this is like a design feature -- he confuses himself), it's hard to tell for sure.

If you don't like Kessler's recorded coke consumption, you can instead use Jahrling's figure from a couple pages above that. 35 kg/hr. Or the records from Gusen below that which indicate 30 kg/hr.

"normal combustion" =/= maximum

So your theory is that coke throughput changed over time, contrary to how the ovens were designed, but worse, you seem to think that increased consumption in one hour would not be cancelled out by the requisite decrease in another hour? Do you know what an average is?

If the science clearly shows that it's impossible, you've blown a huge hole in the story, that's for sure.

Funny, that hasn't stopped you guys before!

Can you put it in your own words? Present the argument of why it's a clear maximum for Birkenau, or at least provide all the relevant quotations from Mattogno (this would include his analysis plus any documents he's relying on).

Imagine if instead of making arguments I was just like look at this HC blog post, it will explain everything. This is a discussion forum.

[bombsaway]

You unironically think the cremation ovens at Auschwitz Birkenau could simultaneously cremate between 4-8 bodies at a time? That, don't strike you as unreasonable, at all?

How you gonna cram all that meat into the box through the 70cm by 70cm hole in its face? I know, you take them off the litter first, right, that will save you all the space you need, then you just, load them by hand in a hot box...

This is a diversion from our discussion (analysis of witness testimony) but no I have a great deal of uncertainty about witness testimony when it comes to details. The bodies were likely put in incrementally as well, as per the document Blake posted. I don't know how many bodies could go into the oven over a certain period of time. Simultaneously I don't know, maybe 8 babies and children.

[Stubble]

You unironically think the cremation ovens at Auschwitz Birkenau could simultaneously cremate between 4-8 bodies at a time? That, don't strike you as unreasonable, at all?

How you gonna cram all that meat into the box through the 70cm by 70cm hole in its face? I know, you take them off the litter first, right, that will save you all the space you need, then you just, load them by hand in a hot box...

This is a diversion from our discussion (analysis of witness testimony) but no I have a great deal of uncertainty about witness testimony when it comes to details. The bodies were likely put in incrementally as well, as per the document Blake posted. I don't know how many bodies could go into the oven over a certain period of time. Simultaneously I don't know, maybe 8 babies and children.

That's surprisingly fair Bombsaway.

A point of caution regarding introduction of fresh corpses before completion, this will net you a cold box and will impede the cremation process.

Of course, don't take my word for it, talk to a cremation guy. Call your local crematoria and ask them if they have some time to explore this with you.

I'll be completely honest, I don't think the cremations were 'complete' at half an hour, although, apparently, for the purpose, they were 'close enough'. The test tables rather testify to that particular point.

[bombsaway]

You unironically think the cremation ovens at Auschwitz Birkenau could simultaneously cremate between 4-8 bodies at a time? That, don't strike you as unreasonable, at all?

How you gonna cram all that meat into the box through the 70cm by 70cm hole in its face? I know, you take them off the litter first, right, that will save you all the space you need, then you just, load them by hand in a hot box...

This is a diversion from our discussion (analysis of witness testimony) but no I have a great deal of uncertainty about witness testimony when it comes to details. The bodies were likely put in incrementally as well, as per the document Blake posted. I don't know how many bodies could go into the oven over a certain period of time. Simultaneously I don't know, maybe 8 babies and children.

That's surprisingly fair Bombsaway.

A point of caution regarding introduction of fresh corpses before completion, this will net you a cold box and will impede the cremation process.

I think the limiting factor would be the firebox and flue as you said

It just doesn't seem like they were lacking power with statements like this (from Blake's translation)

"After each cremation, the temperature in the oven rises. Therefore make sure that the internal temperature does not exceed 1000°C. (white heat).

This temperature increase can be prevented by blowing air in."

And the chambers were specd to run at 800

"After the cremation chambers are red hot (approx. 800°C) the corpses can be inserted into the three chambers one after the other."

[Stubble]

This is a diversion from our discussion (analysis of witness testimony) but no I have a great deal of uncertainty about witness testimony when it comes to details. The bodies were likely put in incrementally as well, as per the document Blake posted. I don't know how many bodies could go into the oven over a certain period of time. Simultaneously I don't know, maybe 8 babies and children.

That's surprisingly fair Bombsaway.

A point of caution regarding introduction of fresh corpses before completion, this will net you a cold box and will impede the cremation process.

I think the limiting factor would be the firebox and flue as you said

It just doesn't seem like they were lacking power with statements like this (from Blake's translation)

"After each cremation, the temperature in the oven rises. Therefore make sure that the internal temperature does not exceed 1000°C. (white heat).

This temperature increase can be prevented by blowing air in."

And the chambers were specd to run at 800

"After the cremation chambers are red hot (approx. 800°C) the corpses can be inserted into the three chambers one after the other."

See, here you are reading the operating instructions and you are not presenting them 'in order'.

Now, when you are coming up to temp, you wait till the box is at 800°C. Then you can load the oven one muffle after the other, left to right, right to left etc.

When the load is off the furnace (after your cycle) you don't want to overheat the system, so, you open the vents if it gets white hot, so it doesn't cook.

Note: you need to insure that all the vents are closed at end of day so the furnace can retain as much heat as possible. This is as much for the sake of the refractory as for the sake of efficiency. If you have ever operated a kiln, you know that you get your work out and close the box and let the appliance come back to temp closed. This saves the brick. This is also in the instructions, but, you omitted that part.

Now, in the sense that 1 oven has 3 muffles, you are cremating multiple corpses per oven. That's not multiple corpses per muffle however. Also, in the context, one after the other means you load each muffle, one, after, the, other.

There are a couple reasons for this, 1 is so you don't have all 3 boxes open at the same time, because that would draw a lot of unheated ambient air through. Another is because you would need 6 persons minimum to load all 3 muffles at once as opposed to 2 or 3 persons for loading each muffle in a sequence.

I suppose this is debatable, but, to me it's clear. I've still got some cupboards to look over and attics and basements to inspect for missing jews though. I'm off to find missing jews.

[bombsaway]

And the chambers were specd to run at 800

"After the cremation chambers are red hot (approx. 800°C) the corpses can be inserted into the three chambers one after the other."

See, here you are reading the operating instructions and you are not presenting them 'in order'.

[/quote]

My point was that the ovens were specd to run at 800 but could get hot enough to be over 1000, so much so that cool air had to be blown in. The gasifier, the fire box, whatever, had this extra capacity, unless you're saying the corpses supplied that.