Cremation Rate at Auschwitz

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blake121666
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Re: Cremation Rate at Auschwitz

Post by blake121666 »

Callafangers wrote: Sun Jan 12, 2025 11:55 pm I should only add my best guess that Pruefer's estimates (and that of anyone suggesting less than one hour per corpse) is accounting for normal corpses, which would yield times much closer to ~30 minutes, if done as multiple/overlapping in the way being proposed by blake121666. However nobody would claim that corpses at Birkenau were anything other than "lean" (or even "extremely lean", in many cases), regardless of any 'extermination'. At most, some might have fallen within a "lean-to-average" range, but these would be the minority.
I want to just stress again to you that the corpse incineration times are overlapping in the way you are looking at it. THAT is where the time savings are. The power is not much greater as you keep showing. That power (which is not that much greater keep in mind) is kinda distributed to more material in the oven and is therefore diluted when looked at per corpse. Individual cremation times are slower but the group when looked at as a whole is a little quicker than if looked at individually. After a few iterations one gets a significant difference in the average.

The overlapping cremation times is the answer to the way you are misfiguring things. The times you are calculating are overlapping - not serially added.
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blake121666
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Re: Cremation Rate at Auschwitz

Post by blake121666 »

For the Topf triple-muffle Operating Instructions, I corrected some typos I had in the German text which can be seen at SSF and made a better English translation, which is now:
OPERATING INSTRUCTIONS
of the coke-fired three-muffle cremation oven

Before loading the two coke gasifiers with coke the exhaust duct damper on the oven must be opened.

Now fire can be lit in the two gasifiers and be maintained, it should be noted that the secondary locks
on the right and left of the ash removal doors (of the coke gasifiers) should be open.

After the cremation chambers are red hot (approx. 800°C) the corpses can be inserted into the three chambers one after the other.

Now it is advisable to switch on the compressed air blower located at the side of the oven and let it run for about 20 minutes.
You should observe whether too much or too little fresh air is entering the three chambers.

Fresh air is regulated by the rotary valve located in the air duct. Furthermore, the air intakes located
to the right and left of the infeed doors must be half-opened.

After the corpse parts have fallen through the fireclay grate into the ash tray below, they must be scraped forward
toward the ash removal door. Here these parts can be kept for another 20 minutes for post-combustion incineration.
The ashes are then drawn into the ash holder and set aside to cool.

In between, new corpses can be introduced into the chambers one after the other.

The two coke gasifiers have to be charged with coke from time to time to supply fuel.

Every evening the gasifier grates have to be cleared of the coke slag and the ash removed.

It should also be noted that after closing time - as soon as the gasifiers have burned out and the embers are no longer available
all air valves and doors, as well as the exhaust duct damper on the oven, must be closed so that the oven does not cool down.

After each cremation, the temperature in the oven rises.
Therefore make sure that the internal temperature does not exceed 1000°C.
(white heat).

This temperature increase can be prevented by blowing air in.
The changes were simply rewordings with what I believe to be better English terminology (using the term "valves" and "dampers" and so on rather than the German language terms). I am not at all fluent in German and rely on online translators. Technical terminology can be somewhat difficult to properly translate.
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Callafangers
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Re: Cremation Rate at Auschwitz

Post by Callafangers »

fireofice wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2025 12:12 am Polish Jews, sure. I'm pretty sure Hungarian Jews were of regular body size and fat though.
You brought up a great point, compelled me to analyze it further. The question becomes: what proportion of Jews -- per the official 'Holocaust' narrative -- sent to Auschwitz were lean vs. average vs. normal at the time they were allegedly cremated there?

Let's attempt to answer this question.

***

Body Composition Analysis of Jews Cremated at Auschwitz

Tables1.jpg
Tables1.jpg (78.12 KiB) Viewed 280 times
* Initial composition based on German 1930s cremation data, see TCFOA, p. 361. Jews in Hungarian category account for some 8-15 weeks in German captivity prior to deportation. Polish Jews' condition accounts for extreme deprivation. Other Jews account for a limited time (at most a few weeks or so) of German deprivation. All categories account for slight overall weight loss during wartime. The "Overall Arrival Distribution" thereafter takes a weighted average of all Jewish arrivals.

Path to Cremation Analysis

Group A: Immediate Cremation (27.5% of arrivals necessarily, immediately cremated per official narrative)
• Elderly, young children, mothers with babies
• Maintained arrival distribution
tables2.jpg
tables2.jpg (15.35 KiB) Viewed 280 times

Group B: Through Selection Process (72.5% of arrivals)
• Healthier individuals selected for labor
• Many deteriorated to worse categories before death
• Some survived (especially those maintaining better condition)
• Most cremated from this group were in Lean category by time of death

Final Estimated Distribution of Cremated Bodies

Tables3.jpg
Tables3.jpg (29.93 KiB) Viewed 280 times

Let's calculate this average potential contribution.

Given the distribution of cremated bodies:
- Normal: 9% (with 146,100 kcal)
- Average: 18% (with 82,200 kcal)
- Lean: 73% (with 35,600 kcal)

Let's calculate the weighted average UHV:

Normal: 146,100 × 0.09 = 13,149 kcal
Average: 82,200 × 0.18 = 14,796 kcal
Lean: 35,600 × 0.73 = 25,988 kcal

Total weighted average = 13,149 + 14,796 + 25,988 = 53,933 kcal

Therefore, on average and in alignment with the exterminationist narrative, each prior corpse could potentially contribute approximately 53,933 kcal towards the cremation of the subsequent corpse (assuming perfect efficiency in heat transfer and timing of adding the subsequent corpse).

This would be the theoretical maximum contribution, but we know the actual contribution will be dramatically less than this due to heat losses, problems with arrangement and timing, etc. If we assume 40% efficiency as done before, the contribution comes down to 21,573. This is about 10% of the kcal required to cremate a lean corpse (requires 206,100 kcal).

Thus, we remain well-within the same range showing that overlapping cremations would have essentially no impact upon overall cremation times. This is in addition to the many other facts as outlined by Mattogno and others, showing the lack of extra maintenance which would necessarily be required (and for which no documentation exists) if simultaneous cremations were applied, or the added inefficiencies which would further reduce or even cancel-out and override the heat transfer gains between a prior and subsequent corpse when added simultaneously.

Altogether, the notion of simultaneous cremations (hence, of cremations for 'extermination' at all) are summarily debunked.
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Callafangers
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Re: Cremation Rate at Auschwitz

Post by Callafangers »

Callafangers wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2025 1:24 amIf we assume 40% efficiency as done before, the contribution comes down to 21,573. This is about 10% of the kcal required to cremate a lean corpse (requires 206,100 kcal).
Oops, it would actually be even less. I was using the 53,933 value total, which is the weighted average based on the upper heating value (UHV). But the more relevant figure would be the lower heating value (LHV) which is typically 10-15% less than the UHV in biological material. So, that puts it around 47,200 which, once reduced further for inefficiency, comes to around 18,800 kcal -- only about 9% of the 206,100 kcal required to cremate a lean corpse.


EDIT: Correction to values provided.
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bombsaway
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Re: Cremation Rate at Auschwitz

Post by bombsaway »

Regarding this thread, I see that the 33.3 kg flow maximum is not quoted anywhere in this book

https://archive.org/details/The-Cremati ... ition-2024

How has this figure been derived?
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Stubble
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Re: Cremation Rate at Auschwitz

Post by Stubble »

Around p. 365 (unit II section 10.4-10.8) according to the presented table contains source data.
were to guess why no t4 personnel were chosen to perform gassing that had experience with gassing, it would be because THERE WERE NONE.
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Re: Cremation Rate at Auschwitz

Post by bombsaway »

Stubble wrote: Mon Apr 07, 2025 4:02 pm Around p. 365 (unit II section 10.4-10.8) according to the presented table contains source data.
Yeah that's exactly where I looked, it's not there (the 33.3 kg / per hour max output figure). It's not my job to make your guys arguments for you.
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Stubble
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Re: Cremation Rate at Auschwitz

Post by Stubble »

No one is asking you to.

That's no more your job than my job is to explain everything.

I didn't make the table. I'm just doing my part to plate the dishes.

You asked, I answered.

Fangers will pop in soon enough and explain his table further me thinks.

In the mean time, if you don't like his numbers, why quibble? Use your own.
were to guess why no t4 personnel were chosen to perform gassing that had experience with gassing, it would be because THERE WERE NONE.
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bombsaway
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Re: Cremation Rate at Auschwitz

Post by bombsaway »

Stubble wrote: Mon Apr 07, 2025 5:57 pm

In the mean time, if you don't like his numbers, why quibble? Use your own.
It's an unknown to me at this point, what I'm saying is that the figure you are referencing for maximum flow rate is entirely uncorroborated and unexplained. If it's derived from Mattogno that connection is not made, and it's not in Mattogno's book. So it's irrational to take this as definitive, and a sign of your cognitive biases, that you wouldn't check this.

I checked all the grate flow numbers, they're not in there.
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Re: Cremation Rate at Auschwitz

Post by Stubble »

bombsaway wrote: Mon Apr 07, 2025 6:03 pm
Stubble wrote: Mon Apr 07, 2025 5:57 pm

In the mean time, if you don't like his numbers, why quibble? Use your own.
It's an unknown to me at this point, what I'm saying is that the figure you are referencing for maximum flow rate is entirely uncorroborated and unexplained. If it's derived from Mattogno that connection is not made, and it's not in Mattogno's book. So it's irrational to take this as definitive, and a sign of your cognitive biases, that you wouldn't check this.

I checked all the grate flow numbers, they're not in there.
Wait, you are tying that table to me specifically, taking issue with it, and then quibbling about a couple pounds of coke one way or another?

My apologies good sir, but this specifically is not my cross to bear.
were to guess why no t4 personnel were chosen to perform gassing that had experience with gassing, it would be because THERE WERE NONE.
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Re: Cremation Rate at Auschwitz

Post by bombsaway »

Stubble wrote: Mon Apr 07, 2025 6:34 pm
bombsaway wrote: Mon Apr 07, 2025 6:03 pm
Stubble wrote: Mon Apr 07, 2025 5:57 pm

In the mean time, if you don't like his numbers, why quibble? Use your own.
It's an unknown to me at this point, what I'm saying is that the figure you are referencing for maximum flow rate is entirely uncorroborated and unexplained. If it's derived from Mattogno that connection is not made, and it's not in Mattogno's book. So it's irrational to take this as definitive, and a sign of your cognitive biases, that you wouldn't check this.

I checked all the grate flow numbers, they're not in there.
Wait, you are tying that table to me specifically, taking issue with it, and then quibbling about a couple pounds of coke one way or another?

My apologies good sir, but this specifically is not my cross to bear.
In this post you say that the max capacity of these furnaces is "known" viewtopic.php?p=7291#p7291

and then you referenced Callafangers post, but there's no indication given how those numbers were derived
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Stubble
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Re: Cremation Rate at Auschwitz

Post by Stubble »

bombsaway wrote: Mon Apr 07, 2025 6:39 pm
Stubble wrote: Mon Apr 07, 2025 6:34 pm
bombsaway wrote: Mon Apr 07, 2025 6:03 pm

It's an unknown to me at this point, what I'm saying is that the figure you are referencing for maximum flow rate is entirely uncorroborated and unexplained. If it's derived from Mattogno that connection is not made, and it's not in Mattogno's book. So it's irrational to take this as definitive, and a sign of your cognitive biases, that you wouldn't check this.

I checked all the grate flow numbers, they're not in there.
Wait, you are tying that table to me specifically, taking issue with it, and then quibbling about a couple pounds of coke one way or another?

My apologies good sir, but this specifically is not my cross to bear.
In this post you say that the max capacity of these furnaces is "known" viewtopic.php?p=7291#p7291

and then you referenced Callafangers post, but there's no indication given how those numbers were derived
Oh, you made some leaps.

I said these were known values, and that books are published on them. Then I provided the books when you asked, then I provided you with a more appropriate thread to take your argumentation to.

I didn't 'reference' this thread, I linked it to curtail your derailment of the AI thread.

So far as my opinion on all of this, I personally have more due diligence in this regard as this currently is not my focus.

I'm still gleaning the refugee microfilm and looking for missing jews sir.

Others with better footing will likely fence with you here. I just pointed you to the correct venue.
were to guess why no t4 personnel were chosen to perform gassing that had experience with gassing, it would be because THERE WERE NONE.
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bombsaway
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Re: Cremation Rate at Auschwitz

Post by bombsaway »

Stubble wrote: Mon Apr 07, 2025 6:45 pm
bombsaway wrote: Mon Apr 07, 2025 6:39 pm
Stubble wrote: Mon Apr 07, 2025 6:34 pm
Wait, you are tying that table to me specifically, taking issue with it, and then quibbling about a couple pounds of coke one way or another?

My apologies good sir, but this specifically is not my cross to bear.
In this post you say that the max capacity of these furnaces is "known" viewtopic.php?p=7291#p7291

and then you referenced Callafangers post, but there's no indication given how those numbers were derived
Oh, you made some leaps.

I said these were known values, and that books are published on them. Then I provided the books when you asked, then I provided you with a more appropriate thread to take your argumentation to.

I didn't 'reference' this thread, I linked it to curtail your derailment of the AI thread.

So far as my opinion on all of this, I personally have more due diligence in this regard as this currently is not my focus.

I'm still gleaning the refugee microfilm and looking for missing jews sir.

Others with better footing will likely fence with you here. I just pointed you to the correct venue.
So you digested that material previously and confirmed that these things (max output, max air flow) are fully known quantities?
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Stubble
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Re: Cremation Rate at Auschwitz

Post by Stubble »

bombsaway wrote: Mon Apr 07, 2025 6:56 pm
Stubble wrote: Mon Apr 07, 2025 6:45 pm
bombsaway wrote: Mon Apr 07, 2025 6:39 pm

In this post you say that the max capacity of these furnaces is "known" viewtopic.php?p=7291#p7291

and then you referenced Callafangers post, but there's no indication given how those numbers were derived
Oh, you made some leaps.

I said these were known values, and that books are published on them. Then I provided the books when you asked, then I provided you with a more appropriate thread to take your argumentation to.

I didn't 'reference' this thread, I linked it to curtail your derailment of the AI thread.

So far as my opinion on all of this, I personally have more due diligence in this regard as this currently is not my focus.

I'm still gleaning the refugee microfilm and looking for missing jews sir.

Others with better footing will likely fence with you here. I just pointed you to the correct venue.
So you digested that material previously and confirmed that these things (max output, max air flow) are fully known quantities?
I've also looked at technique by pressac, but yes, the diagrams, blueline etc are there. The values are known. Specifications are also published.

It's there sir.
were to guess why no t4 personnel were chosen to perform gassing that had experience with gassing, it would be because THERE WERE NONE.
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bombsaway
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Re: Cremation Rate at Auschwitz

Post by bombsaway »

Stubble wrote: Mon Apr 07, 2025 7:01 pm
bombsaway wrote: Mon Apr 07, 2025 6:56 pm
Stubble wrote: Mon Apr 07, 2025 6:45 pm

Oh, you made some leaps.

I said these were known values, and that books are published on them. Then I provided the books when you asked, then I provided you with a more appropriate thread to take your argumentation to.

I didn't 'reference' this thread, I linked it to curtail your derailment of the AI thread.

So far as my opinion on all of this, I personally have more due diligence in this regard as this currently is not my focus.

I'm still gleaning the refugee microfilm and looking for missing jews sir.

Others with better footing will likely fence with you here. I just pointed you to the correct venue.
So you digested that material previously and confirmed that these things (max output, max air flow) are fully known quantities?
I've also looked at technique by pressac, but yes, the diagrams, blueline etc are there. The values are known. Specifications are also published.

It's there sir.
So your assertion is, that maximum output of the Auschwitz crematorium is clearly ascertainable, sure as day, basic science. Derived I guess from German documents?

I looked through and didn't see anything, I'm quite busy now, and this may take a long time. If this is a strong assertion on your part I'm willing to go through it (I asked you this question about CO output and I'll ask you again). If the science clearly shows that it's impossible, you've blown a huge hole in the story, that's for sure. My expectation is that when we look through this stuff it will be ambiguous. The past is a strange beast and slippery.
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