Challenge for Believers

[Stubble]

You do understand there is a difference between working the numbers out and them not working and not being able to work them out, don't you? Or are you so arrogant as to think that reality isn't subject to entropy or physics?

[bombsaway]

You cannot evidence over a million Polish Jews transported through the AR camps, resettled and then absorbed by the SU.

You can't even give me a count of train cars, what's less an actual head count. You assume 'over a million' based on 'underground reports' (ie referencing spies and propagandists).

Even if taken at face value, you can be shown multiple stops on the way to the Aktion Reinhardt camps, and many camps around them with labor requirements.

From these 'pure extermination' camps, you have survivors transited west. This already undermined the 'pure extermination' thesis and yet no attempt was made to correct the assumed totals based on pure extermination. This is telling.

That the evidence of delivery to the reinhardt camps is poor is just laughable from a historian's perspective.

You can see I posted a few things here https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=134#p134

Camps are explicitly mentioned and we see Jews being sent there from Macedonia.

Additionally various censuses show the population dropped precipitously. Something massive happened, there's no doubt about that. Revisionsists can point out they weren't pure extermination camps, but there's evidence of not more than a few hundred people being transported out to camps in Poland. This isn't denied by historians, but it would be silly for them to assume it was a substantial amount based on the massive drop in population. You want to argue it was 100,00? This is unverifiable but wouldn't fundamentally change the story or solve the issue of the 1.45 million Jews described by Himmler as being "transported" to the Russian east, and counted by Korherr as outgoing.

[Nessie]

You do understand there is a difference between working the numbers out and them not working and not being able to work them out, don't you? Or are you so arrogant as to think that reality isn't subject to entropy or physics?

Are you so knowledgeable that if you cannot work out how gassings were possible, that is proof no gassings took place? Yes or no.

[Stubble]

You cannot evidence over a million Polish Jews transported through the AR camps, resettled and then absorbed by the SU.

You can't even give me a count of train cars, what's less an actual head count. You assume 'over a million' based on 'underground reports' (ie referencing spies and propagandists).

Even if taken at face value, you can be shown multiple stops on the way to the Aktion Reinhardt camps, and many camps around them with labor requirements.

From these 'pure extermination' camps, you have survivors transited west. This already undermined the 'pure extermination' thesis and yet no attempt was made to correct the assumed totals based on pure extermination. This is telling.

That the evidence of delivery to the reinhardt camps is poor is just laughable from a historian's perspective.

You can see I posted a few things here https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=134#p134

Camps are explicitly mentioned and we see Jews being sent there from Macedonia.

Additionally various censuses show the population dropped precipitously. Something massive happened, there's no doubt about that. Revisionsists can point out they weren't pure extermination camps, but there's evidence of not more than a few hundred people being transported out to camps in Poland. This isn't denied by historians, but it would be silly for them to assume it was a substantial amount based on the massive drop in population. You want to argue it was 100,00? This is unverifiable but wouldn't fundamentally change the story or solve the issue of the 1.45 million Jews described by Himmler as being "transported" to the Russian east, and counted by Korherr as outgoing.

Now this, this is a good rebuttal. I will say 'touche'.

I take issue with the various census, but that is for another thread. If you want to start one, feel free. If not, I will start one after I finish my analysis.

Korherr's study is what I would consider 'gold standard' so far as data on this specific issue. It is unfortunately short and in my opinion lacks specificity to the required degree to resolve our disparate positions.

That's a good post though Bombsaway, I tip my hat.

[Stubble]

You do understand there is a difference between working the numbers out and them not working and not being able to work them out, don't you? Or are you so arrogant as to think that reality isn't subject to entropy or physics?

Are you so knowledgeable that if you cannot work out how gassings were possible, that is proof no gassings took place? Yes or no.

Let's be very clear, I'm sufficiently able to very clearly say that people could not have been gassed in the method described by 'some' eyewitnesses.

I've already stated 'how' it 'could' have happened based off of the discharge/exhaust/emissions of the specific engine (a Soviet m17, oddly a licensed replica of a bmw engine, though that's a digression) expressed in cubic feet per minute and assuming a 'rich' fuel mixture on a 'cool' day (40°f specifically).

Output at idle is sufficient for an average bathroom to be lethal in a 15 minute window, at redline, a den or livingroom.

[Nessie]

You do understand there is a difference between working the numbers out and them not working and not being able to work them out, don't you? Or are you so arrogant as to think that reality isn't subject to entropy or physics?

Are you so knowledgeable that if you cannot work out how gassings were possible, that is proof no gassings took place? Yes or no.

Let's be very clear, I'm sufficiently able to very clearly say that people could not have been gassed in the method described by 'some' eyewitnesses.

I've already stated 'how' it 'could' have happened based off of the discharge/exhaust/emissions of the specific engine (a Soviet m17, oddly a licensed replica of a bmw engine, though that's a digression) expressed in cubic feet per minute and assuming a 'rich' fuel mixture on a 'cool' day (40°f specifically).

Output at idle is sufficient for an average bathroom to be lethal in a 15 minute window, at redline, a den or livingroom.

But, does that mean you are able to prove if gassings happened or not? Yes or no.

[Nazgul]

It was over a million for all the AR camps, of which TII made up c850,000. I am clearly not relying on underground reports, when I can quote the names of the Nazis who provided the evidence of mass transports to the camp and how many went.

Why would these nazis convict themselves?

[Nessie]

It was over a million for all the AR camps, of which TII made up c850,000. I am clearly not relying on underground reports, when I can quote the names of the Nazis who provided the evidence of mass transports to the camp and how many went.

Why would these nazis convict themselves?

Indeed, why would so many Nazis lie and get themselves convicted?

[Nazgul]

Plea bargaining's

[Nessie]

Plea bargaining's

Produce evidence they were all offered plea bargains at all of the court proceedings in West, East & unified Germany, Poland, the SU and Israel.

[Nazgul]

Produce evidence they were all offered plea bargains at all of the court proceedings in West, East & unified Germany, Poland, the SU and Israel.

As they are possibly still alive after spouting their version of "truth" while probably innocent comrades got the guillotine it is highly suspicious. Hoess had his wife and son threatened with death unless he confessed; he lied and was hanged. Others saw others hanged after Nuremberg and probably did not wish to dangle at the end of a hemp cord themselves. They are traitors. How many of these snakes were prosecuted? Credible witnesses, I think not.

[Nessie]

Produce evidence they were all offered plea bargains at all of the court proceedings in West, East & unified Germany, Poland, the SU and Israel.

As they are possibly still alive after spouting their version of "truth" while probably innocent comrades got the guillotine it is highly suspicious. Hoess had his wife and son threatened with death unless he confessed; he lied and was hanged. Others saw others hanged after Nuremberg and probably did not wish to dangle at the end of a hemp cord themselves. They are traitors. How many of these snakes were prosecuted? Credible witnesses, I think not.

I will just add that claim to the huge list of unevidenced claims you make

[Nazgul]

I will just add that claim to the huge list of unevidenced claims you make

So in the smugness, self appreciation of no worth, you are stating that Hoess was not concerned about the potential execution of his own son and wife. His son was in England in custody.

Any prosecutor knows that what I said is evidenced. It is factual human psychology.

[Stubble]

Are you so knowledgeable that if you cannot work out how gassings were possible, that is proof no gassings took place? Yes or no.

Let's be very clear, I'm sufficiently able to very clearly say that people could not have been gassed in the method described by 'some' eyewitnesses.

I've already stated 'how' it 'could' have happened based off of the discharge/exhaust/emissions of the specific engine (a Soviet m17, oddly a licensed replica of a bmw engine, though that's a digression) expressed in cubic feet per minute and assuming a 'rich' fuel mixture on a 'cool' day (40°f specifically).

Output at idle is sufficient for an average bathroom to be lethal in a 15 minute window, at redline, a den or livingroom.

But, does that mean you are able to prove if gassings happened or not? Yes or no.

Nessie, I'm going to say this very slowly.

An M-17t engine is insufficient for mass executions performed in the space described.

While imminently capable of producing enough carbon monoxide to kill in an enclosed space, the space described is in excess of the lethality of the engine.

This does not in itself mean that an M-17t engine was not used as a weapon of homicide during ww2. It means that it could not have been used in the manner described, as it is insufficient for task.

I can not 'prove' that no person was executed with the exhaust from an M-17t engine. I can however demonstrate that the M-17t engine lacks sufficient capacity to be used to murder a warehouse full of people.

There is a difference between saying 'nothing' happened and saying that which is physically impossible did not occur.

One can not fill a 5lb bag with 5 grams of dirt Nessie.

[Nazgul]

One can not fill a 5lb bag with 5 grams of dirt Nessie.

There are witnesses to say that it happened so it happend.