Challenge for Believers

[Nessie]

I have a another challenge, which is somewhat similar and which I prefer because it always leaves them completely stumped:

I challenge exterminationists to not only geo-locate, but to quantify every North Korean defector since the State's inception. Clearly this is not possible, and some of the the reasons are:

1) It is politically imperative for the relevant parties (notably China and S Korea) to manage this quietly and delicately.

2) The exposure of known defectors poses severe risks to these states' reputatione, especially as it comes to managing the narratives around known humanitarian crises, such as the N Korean famine in the 90s where we believe millions perished.

3) The N Koreans themselves are a famously isolationist people, and integrating into their host societies will not be convenient for them, if even desirable or possible

For all of these reasons and more, no exterminationist will be able to put a number on it, let alone tell you where they are or where they went, or where they died. At best they will give you a range, at worst they will be completely honest and tell you its impossible.

Wikipedia has a lot of detail about North Korean defectors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_defectors

"According to Courtland Robinson, assistant professor at the Center for Refugee and Disaster Response at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, around 10,000 North Korean defectors are staying in China.[7] 1,418 were registered as arriving in South Korea in 2016.[8] In 2017, there were 31,093 defectors registered with the Unification Ministry in South Korea, 71% of whom were women.[9] In 2018, the numbers had been dramatically dropping since Kim Jong-Un took power in 2011, trending towards less than a thousand per year, down from the peak of 2,914 in 2009.[10]"

There is evidence of specific numbers and locations for defectors;

https://www.unikorea.go.kr/eng_unikorea ... o/support/

"As of December 2023.12, a total of 34,078 North Korean defectors entered South Korea."

If a revisionist could provide anything remotely approaching the evidence in that Wikipedia entry, of Jews resettled in the east, from an AR camp, Chelmno, or Hungarians sent to A-B in 1944, I would accept that as evidence to prove those places had at least vastly inflated death tolls.

[HansHill]

If the Nazis had been falsely accused of mass murder and they had evidence of resettlement, you can be sure they would have ensured that evidence was widely available. If the Nazis were being accused of extermination and they had been mass murdering, typically for an accuse guilty person, they will hide and destroy evidence. So, yes, I would expect to find a lot of evidence for resettlement and less for mass murder.

False dichotomy. And very flimsy. I could equally argue:

The Nazis were an advanced technological civilisation with a thorough understanding of law and engineering. Therefore, in the clear absence of a viable murder weapon, no court in the world would even consider such wild claims as valid, therefore them attempting to pre-emptively evidence against what never happened is not only very silly but completely baffling as to why they should even attempt.

A person accused of murder, who knows the person they are accused of murdering is still alive, would normally provide evidence that person is still alive. It is baffling you think otherwise.

Low IQ take.

The Nazis have been accused of may bizarre things, including genocide, and if you think they would take a laundry list of points, and pre-emptively work through them, to satisfy the deranged accusations that will appear while losing an existential two front war, you are off your meds.

Show me where they proved they weren't putting nuclear bases in Antarctica? I want a document signed by Adolf Hitler clearly asserting there are no Nazi Nuclear Bases (NNB's for short) in operation in Antarctica.

[HansHill]

I have a another challenge, which is somewhat similar and which I prefer because it always leaves them completely stumped:

I challenge exterminationists to not only geo-locate, but to quantify every North Korean defector since the State's inception. Clearly this is not possible, and some of the the reasons are:

1) It is politically imperative for the relevant parties (notably China and S Korea) to manage this quietly and delicately.

2) The exposure of known defectors poses severe risks to these states' reputatione, especially as it comes to managing the narratives around known humanitarian crises, such as the N Korean famine in the 90s where we believe millions perished.

3) The N Koreans themselves are a famously isolationist people, and integrating into their host societies will not be convenient for them, if even desirable or possible

For all of these reasons and more, no exterminationist will be able to put a number on it, let alone tell you where they are or where they went, or where they died. At best they will give you a range, at worst they will be completely honest and tell you its impossible.

Wikipedia has a lot of detail about North Korean defectors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_defectors

"According to Courtland Robinson, assistant professor at the Center for Refugee and Disaster Response at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, around 10,000 North Korean defectors are staying in China.[7] 1,418 were registered as arriving in South Korea in 2016.[8] In 2017, there were 31,093 defectors registered with the Unification Ministry in South Korea, 71% of whom were women.[9] In 2018, the numbers had been dramatically dropping since Kim Jong-Un took power in 2011, trending towards less than a thousand per year, down from the peak of 2,914 in 2009.[10]"

There is evidence of specific numbers and locations for defectors;

https://www.unikorea.go.kr/eng_unikorea ... o/support/

"As of December 2023.12, a total of 34,078 North Korean defectors entered South Korea."

If a revisionist could provide anything remotely approaching the evidence in that Wikipedia entry, of Jews resettled in the east, from an AR camp, Chelmno, or Hungarians sent to A-B in 1944, I would accept that as evidence to prove those places had at least vastly inflated death tolls.

Why do your estimates only start in 1998? I want all defectors, especially from the early Cold War and Korean War. This is laughably incomplete.

[Nessie]

False dichotomy. And very flimsy. I could equally argue:

The Nazis were an advanced technological civilisation with a thorough understanding of law and engineering. Therefore, in the clear absence of a viable murder weapon, no court in the world would even consider such wild claims as valid, therefore them attempting to pre-emptively evidence against what never happened is not only very silly but completely baffling as to why they should even attempt.

A person accused of murder, who knows the person they are accused of murdering is still alive, would normally provide evidence that person is still alive. It is baffling you think otherwise.

Low IQ take.

Having evidence to end a murder accusation and not using it, is low IQ, why? The way you are arguing, if we were both accused of murder, where the victim was still alive, I would be a free man with a cleared name and you would in prison, a convicted murderer!

The Nazis have been accused of may bizarre things, including genocide, and if you think they would take a laundry list of points, and pre-emptively work through them, to satisfy the deranged accusations that will appear while losing an existential two front war, you are off your meds.

Genocide is one of the most serious accusation against the Nazis. For them to have evidence there was no genocide and not use it, is utterly ridiculous. Same with accusations of murdering the disabled and prisoners. They were also evidenced and not denied.

Show me where they proved they weren't putting nuclear bases in Antarctica? I want a document signed by Adolf Hitler clearly asserting there are no Nazi Nuclear Bases (NNB's for short) in operation in Antarctica.

False analogy, since they were not accused of putting nuclear bases in Antarctica. They were accused of mass murdering Jews and others.

[Nessie]

I have a another challenge, which is somewhat similar and which I prefer because it always leaves them completely stumped:

I challenge exterminationists to not only geo-locate, but to quantify every North Korean defector since the State's inception. Clearly this is not possible, and some of the the reasons are:

1) It is politically imperative for the relevant parties (notably China and S Korea) to manage this quietly and delicately.

2) The exposure of known defectors poses severe risks to these states' reputatione, especially as it comes to managing the narratives around known humanitarian crises, such as the N Korean famine in the 90s where we believe millions perished.

3) The N Koreans themselves are a famously isolationist people, and integrating into their host societies will not be convenient for them, if even desirable or possible

For all of these reasons and more, no exterminationist will be able to put a number on it, let alone tell you where they are or where they went, or where they died. At best they will give you a range, at worst they will be completely honest and tell you its impossible.

Wikipedia has a lot of detail about North Korean defectors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_defectors

"According to Courtland Robinson, assistant professor at the Center for Refugee and Disaster Response at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, around 10,000 North Korean defectors are staying in China.[7] 1,418 were registered as arriving in South Korea in 2016.[8] In 2017, there were 31,093 defectors registered with the Unification Ministry in South Korea, 71% of whom were women.[9] In 2018, the numbers had been dramatically dropping since Kim Jong-Un took power in 2011, trending towards less than a thousand per year, down from the peak of 2,914 in 2009.[10]"

There is evidence of specific numbers and locations for defectors;

https://www.unikorea.go.kr/eng_unikorea ... o/support/

"As of December 2023.12, a total of 34,078 North Korean defectors entered South Korea."

If a revisionist could provide anything remotely approaching the evidence in that Wikipedia entry, of Jews resettled in the east, from an AR camp, Chelmno, or Hungarians sent to A-B in 1944, I would accept that as evidence to prove those places had at least vastly inflated death tolls.

Why do your estimates only start in 1998? I want all defectors, especially from the early Cold War and Korean War. This is laughably incomplete.

The 34,078 total is from 1948, according to the second source linked to. Even if the evidence is incomplete, it is sufficient to prove the scale of defections from North Korea. If you had incomplete data for the AR camps, such as three or four months were mass transports of people left the camps, to be resettled in the east, that would be enough to cast doubt on the claim those camps were death camps and that there had been mass resettlement in the east.

I may have incomplete data, you have none.

[TlsMS93]

If the Nazis had been falsely accused of mass murder and they had evidence of resettlement, you can be sure they would have ensured that evidence was widely available. If the Nazis were being accused of extermination and they had been mass murdering, typically for an accuse guilty person, they will hide and destroy evidence. So, yes, I would expect to find a lot of evidence for resettlement and less for mass murder.

This is assuming that the prosecutors or whoever is accusing you are innocent and have nothing against you personally and therefore would not and were not able to destroy or obstruct evidence to the contrary. Have you ever heard of planted evidence? Until the dark cellars of the Kremlin, London and Washington are searched, you cannot say that the evidence does not exist, after all they were the interested parties in prosecuting the German State and its representatives.

[HansHill]

The 34,078 total is from 1948, according to the second source linked to. Even if the evidence is incomplete, it is sufficient to prove the scale of defections from North Korea. If you had incomplete data for the AR camps, such as three or four months were mass transports of people left the camps, to be resettled in the east, that would be enough to cast doubt on the claim those camps were death camps and that there had been mass resettlement in the east.

I may have incomplete data, you have none.

To be clear: You don't only have "incomplete" data, you have wildly incomplete data. You have almost nothing under the period in question, being the cold war (remember i said since the inception of the state), and the data you presented is from South Korea only, meaning you have nothing from China where the majority of defectors go to.

The point stands - it is a remarkably difficult task to find Cold War era political dissidents moving indiscriminately across borders during a warzone, or behind the iron curtain, or who's governments decide it's best they remain disappeared.

Your failure has demonstrated that quite admirably.

[HansHill]

Having evidence to end a murder accusation and not using it, is low IQ, why? The way you are arguing, if we were both accused of murder, where the victim was still alive, I would be a free man with a cleared name and you would in prison, a convicted murderer!

There is evidence - the lack of a murder weapon and bodies. They didn't need to do anything further, despite your bizarre appeals to a pre-emptive proving of innocence (?) Rubbish.

Genocide is one of the most serious accusation against the Nazis. For them to have evidence there was no genocide and not use it, is utterly ridiculous. Same with accusations of murdering the disabled and prisoners. They were also evidenced and not denied.

See above.

False analogy, since they were not accused of putting nuclear bases in Antarctica. They were accused of mass murdering Jews and others.

You're right this technically doesn't make sense, which is why this illustrates how ridiculous your demands are. They cannot and should not be expected to prove innocence along any imaginary string of wild claims you and your pals care to dream up. Incidentally, I don't recall any Nazi document "proving" the soap or electrocution plates were fake just to satisfy some deranged lunatic post-1945. To expect something like this to exist is incoherent from a logical standpoint.

[Stubble]

Is Nessie not aware of the accusation of a 'nuclear powered super submarine pen' in new swabia?

I think there was an accusation about another one in some island off of greenland as well.

If I recall correctly Donitz was interrogated about these super submarine pens.

I'm going to give you a spoiler here, the nuclear super submarine pens don't exist, they were a cover for 'die glock' bases. Obviously.

[HansHill]

Is Nessie not aware of the accusation of a 'nuclear powered super submarine pen' in new swabia?

I think there was an accusation about another one in some island off of greenland as well.

If I recall correctly Donitz was interrogated about these super submarine pens.

I'm going to give you a spoiler here, the nuclear super submarine pens don't exist, they were a cover for 'die glock' bases. Obviously.

Now think how bizarre it would be to require positive witness testimony to accept its nonexistence as fact.

Rather than you know, using its nonexistence to prove its nonexistence.

[Nessie]

If the Nazis had been falsely accused of mass murder and they had evidence of resettlement, you can be sure they would have ensured that evidence was widely available. If the Nazis were being accused of extermination and they had been mass murdering, typically for an accuse guilty person, they will hide and destroy evidence. So, yes, I would expect to find a lot of evidence for resettlement and less for mass murder.

This is assuming that the prosecutors or whoever is accusing you are innocent and have nothing against you personally and therefore would not and were not able to destroy or obstruct evidence to the contrary. Have you ever heard of planted evidence? Until the dark cellars of the Kremlin, London and Washington are searched, you cannot say that the evidence does not exist, after all they were the interested parties in prosecuting the German State and its representatives.

The majority of SS death camp staff were prosecuted by West German prosecutors, in Germany courts.

[Stubble]

We can move it to something that made it to Nuremberg.

The nazi atomic weapon test that annihilated 20,000 jews in a flash of light.

People saw this nuclear test. They swore to it.

It obviously happened...

[Nessie]

The 34,078 total is from 1948, according to the second source linked to. Even if the evidence is incomplete, it is sufficient to prove the scale of defections from North Korea. If you had incomplete data for the AR camps, such as three or four months were mass transports of people left the camps, to be resettled in the east, that would be enough to cast doubt on the claim those camps were death camps and that there had been mass resettlement in the east.

I may have incomplete data, you have none.

To be clear: You don't only have "incomplete" data, you have wildly incomplete data. You have almost nothing under the period in question, being the cold war (remember i said since the inception of the state), and the data you presented is from South Korea only, meaning you have nothing from China where the majority of defectors go to.

The point stands - it is a remarkably difficult task to find Cold War era political dissidents moving indiscriminately across borders during a warzone, or behind the iron curtain, or who's governments decide it's best they remain disappeared.

Your failure has demonstrated that quite admirably.

I have produced sufficient evidence to prove the level of defections from North Korea and where those people went.

You cannot produce any evidence at all, even wildly incomplete data, to prove mass transports of hundreds of thousands of people back out of the AR camps and resettlement in the east, such that millions were there in 1944.

[Nessie]

Having evidence to end a murder accusation and not using it, is low IQ, why? The way you are arguing, if we were both accused of murder, where the victim was still alive, I would be a free man with a cleared name and you would in prison, a convicted murderer!

There is evidence - the lack of a murder weapon and bodies.

There is evidence of the murder weapon and bodies. You only fool yourself that there is no such evidence.

They didn't need to do anything further, despite your bizarre appeals to a pre-emptive proving of innocence (?) Rubbish.

Only someone with a low IQ, who has evidence of their innocence, does not produce it.

Genocide is one of the most serious accusation against the Nazis. For them to have evidence there was no genocide and not use it, is utterly ridiculous. Same with accusations of murdering the disabled and prisoners. They were also evidenced and not denied.

See above.

False analogy, since they were not accused of putting nuclear bases in Antarctica. They were accused of mass murdering Jews and others.

You're right this technically doesn't make sense, which is why this illustrates how ridiculous your demands are. They cannot and should not be expected to prove innocence along any imaginary string of wild claims you and your pals care to dream up. Incidentally, I don't recall any Nazi document "proving" the soap or electrocution plates were fake just to satisfy some deranged lunatic post-1945. To expect something like this to exist is incoherent from a logical standpoint.

It is not incoherent from a logical, evidential, or legal standpoint, for an accused person to have evidence of their innocence and to produce that evidence, so that the accusation against them is dropped.

[Nessie]

Is Nessie not aware of the accusation of a 'nuclear powered super submarine pen' in new swabia?

I think there was an accusation about another one in some island off of greenland as well.

If I recall correctly Donitz was interrogated about these super submarine pens.

I'm going to give you a spoiler here, the nuclear super submarine pens don't exist, they were a cover for 'die glock' bases. Obviously.

Now think how bizarre it would be to require positive witness testimony to accept its nonexistence as fact.

Rather than you know, using its nonexistence to prove its nonexistence.

Do you mean like testimony of empty trains leaving the AR camps? That is evidence of the nonexistence of mass transports back out of the camps. The nonexistence of evidence of millions of Jews in camps and ghettos in 1944, is evidence that did not happen.