Operation Reinhardt staff and the T4 connection

[HansHill]

The German staff connection between T4 and AR is clear. A huge proportion worked on both, far more than would be expected if AR recruited randomly.

Don't backtrack - stand by what you said - You take it one step further and claim they were positively and "universally" selected because of their past performance and suitability and their lack of morals to kill.

When pushed on this, you evidenced us.... drivers, chefs etc. Your friend Dr Patru doesn't agree with your position, best to follow his lead.

[Nessie]

The German staff connection between T4 and AR is clear. A huge proportion worked on both, far more than would be expected if AR recruited randomly.

Don't backtrack - stand by what you said - You take it one step further and claim they were positively and "universally" selected because of their past performance and suitability and their lack of morals to kill.

When pushed on this, you evidenced us.... drivers, chefs etc. Your friend Dr Patru doesn't agree with your position, best to follow his lead.

I am not backtracking, since this has never been my position,

"...all staff who worked at a concentration camp / camp network are inherently evil a priori"

You made that up.

[Stubble]

The German staff connection between T4 and AR is clear. A huge proportion worked on both, far more than would be expected if AR recruited randomly.

Don't backtrack - stand by what you said - You take it one step further and claim they were positively and "universally" selected because of their past performance and suitability and their lack of morals to kill.

When pushed on this, you evidenced us.... drivers, chefs etc. Your friend Dr Patru doesn't agree with your position, best to follow his lead.

I am not backtracking, since this has never been my position,

"...all staff who worked at a concentration camp / camp network are inherently evil a priori"

You made that up.

No, he didn't make that up, you said such, in this thread. I believe he even quoted you sir.

[Nessie]

Don't backtrack - stand by what you said - You take it one step further and claim they were positively and "universally" selected because of their past performance and suitability and their lack of morals to kill.

When pushed on this, you evidenced us.... drivers, chefs etc. Your friend Dr Patru doesn't agree with your position, best to follow his lead.

I am not backtracking, since this has never been my position,

"...all staff who worked at a concentration camp / camp network are inherently evil a priori"

You made that up.

No, he didn't make that up, you said such, in this thread. I believe he even quoted you sir.

He did not quote me saying that all the staff, who worked in any camp, were evil.

[Stubble]

What camp did the not evil nazis work at Nessie? Which one?

[Nessie]

What camp did the not evil nazis work at Nessie? Which one?

Every camp had not evil staff. Nazi dictatorship forced many good people into doing evil things. Oskar Groening came over as a good person, for whom circumstances resulted in him assisting in the theft of property from the Jews gassed at A-B.

[Stubble]

Who were the not evil nazis at the Reinhardt camps?

[bombsaway]

Who were the not evil nazis at the Reinhardt camps?

It's well known that within any population there is a small minority that has psychopathic and sadistic tendancies. This is maybe what Nessie is referring to.

As Browning's Ordinary men study shows, you don't need these traits to carry out killings, normal people can do it, it's just more psychologically difficult.

There are reasons not to bring sadists into the fold from an organizational perspective when you have "normals" who are willing to do the job, see the Nazi prosecution of Taubner https://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Max_T%C3%A4ubner

Such behavior likely diminishes the efficiency of killing operations and has additional demoralizing effects on normals.

It's unclear exactly why so many from T4 worked at Reinhardt camps. W certain cases it's obvious. Commandants like Wirth and Eberl had experience conducting involuntary killing operations, and doing it discretely. There's the obvious connection of gassing, so even if staff didn't develop the technology themselves they knew people who did.

I would speculate that the biggest reason is that T4 personnel demonstrated ideological commitment to do something unpalatable and had proven themselves to be discreet enough.

[HansHill]

As Browning's Ordinary men study shows, you don't need these traits to carry out killings, normal people can do it, it's just more psychologically difficult.

Emphasis mine: Nessie claims they were universally and specifically selected for having these traits, based specifically on past performance and their suitability for being killers with the proven morality of a killer

Nessie's quotes:

They were clearly selected to work on AR, because they had shown themselves to be morally and mentally fine with mass killing of people considered to be unworthy of living, useless eaters, enemies of the state.

The obvious universal link, is that people who could cope with the killing of disabled people including children, would also cope with the gassing of Jews including children. They could be trusted to follow orders and keep quiet.

That is a positive selection, based on past performance and suitability.

BA's quote from this thread

I would speculate that the biggest reason is that T4 personnel demonstrated ideological commitment to do something unpalatable and had proven themselves to be discreet enough.

See above.

[Stubble]

And yet, earlier in the thread, and even the orthodox theme, is that these men were all chosen because they were evil, sadistic murderers, who gained their experience working in the t4 euthanasia program.

Even in my first post in this thread, I showed, these men have been painted with a broad brush. Furthermore I have illustrated that their jobs in t4 were not useful in teaching them 'techniques of murder'. Rather, these men brought experience in cooking, stamping, agriculture, managing work details, working with detainees and doing paperwork.

If you scroll up the thread a bit you will see that this new thesis that these men were not 'evil murderous nazis' has been presented only in the last few posts from Nessie, and is rather incongruent with his earlier posts about them all being murderers regardless of their role.

[bombsaway]

As Browning's Ordinary men study shows, you don't need these traits to carry out killings, normal people can do it, it's just more psychologically difficult.

Emphasis mine: Nessie claims they were universally and specifically selected for having these traits, based specifically on past performance and their suitability for being killers with the proven morality of a killer

Nessie's quotes:

They were clearly selected to work on AR, because they had shown themselves to be morally and mentally fine with mass killing of people considered to be unworthy of living, useless eaters, enemies of the state.

The obvious universal link, is that people who could cope with the killing of disabled people including children, would also cope with the gassing of Jews including children. They could be trusted to follow orders and keep quiet.

That is a positive selection, based on past performance and suitability.

BA's quote from this thread

I would speculate that the biggest reason is that T4 personnel demonstrated ideological commitment to do something unpalatable and had proven themselves to be discreet enough.

See above.

You don't think there's a difference between participating in killing for ideological reasons (my understanding of most people involved in T4) vs doing it because you enjoy it?

[bombsaway]

And yet, earlier in the thread, and even the orthodox theme, is that these men were all chosen because they were evil, sadistic murderers, who gained their experience working in the t4 euthanasia program.

Actually on page one I corrected this assumption you have, referencing Browning https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=5631#p5631

[Stubble]

And yet, earlier in the thread, and even the orthodox theme, is that these men were all chosen because they were evil, sadistic murderers, who gained their experience working in the t4 euthanasia program.

Actually on page one I corrected this assumption you have, referencing Browning https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=5631#p5631

Linking something about PB 101, and ignoring what is written about the men of Operation Reinhardt, sorry, 'aktion Reinhard'...it is not the same thing.

I understand that you linked that on the first page. Firstly it doesn't address the issue we are talking about 'men from t4 for chosen because they had invaluable experience killing people with carbon monoxide gas'. Secondly, you aren't Nessie.

On the first page, we talked past each other a bit as you said 'the connection is clear' and I said 'cooks are not murderers' basically.

[bombsaway]

On the first page, we talked past each other a bit as you said 'the connection is clear' and I said 'cooks are not murderers' basically.

Almost nobody is a murderer man. Even soldiers who have killed aren't. It would be absurd and counterproductive for the Nazis to make this the criteria they were looking for in recruiting for a mass killing operation. The Taubner case you should look at, because it shows this exact principle. You just have to find people who are willing to the job and do it well, for whatever reason. Within orthodoxy most believe that ideological commitment was the defining thing, I would agree with this.

The connection is clear when you think about things like, every commandant and deputy at BTS came from T4. Basically the revisionist response is this is all or mostly coincidental.

It would also make sense for these commandants to bring people over who they had worked with previously.

[Stubble]

On the first page, we talked past each other a bit as you said 'the connection is clear' and I said 'cooks are not murderers' basically.

Almost nobody is a murderer man. Even soldiers who have killed aren't. It would be absurd and counterproductive for the Nazis to make this the criteria they were looking for in recruiting for a mass killing operation. The Taubner case you should look at, because it shows this exact principle. You just have to find people who are willing to the job and do it well, for whatever reason. Within orthodoxy most believe that ideological commitment was the defining thing, I would agree with this.

I understand that, but, you are ignoring 'the consensus' and what is written about these men as well as the other camp personnel.

These are people who, if the narrative is to be believed, beat people to death with sticks and shovels as not to wake up the neighbors.

Child murderers who bayonetted babies, ripped babies in half, or played soccer with babies.