Operation Reinhardt staff and the T4 connection

[Stubble]

It is absolutely asserted by holocaust promoters that the German staff of the 'Aktion Reinhard' 'murder mills' (this bit about the name irks me, but, that's for another thread) were almost exclusively chosen from aktion T4 specifically because they were coldblooded killers that murdered children. In this thread, I would like to investigate some of the members of the Operation Reinhardt detail and examine their backgrounds to see if we can establish their absolute devilish and criminal nature.

In no particular order;

Kurt Franz- A former cook at 4 separate facilities during his involvement in 'aktion t4'. I suppose the diet was a real killer. We all hate institutional food.

During 'Aktion Reinhard' he was deputy commander, and later camp commander.

That's quite the step up. I suppose this was for his highly efficient killing techniques he picked up in the kitchens of the t4 program.

Reinhold Feix- Now this fellow, he was never involved in t4, but, I'm going to give him a mention, because he was smart, dapper, well spoken and also apparently an absolutely despicable monster. He was a group commander at Belzec. This man, he played violin. He once forced the internees of the death factory to play until the collapsed, among other things, like beating a chemist while he was being forced to paint the kitchen until his eyes were swollen shut and his face was covered in blood. He was in charge of the homicidal gas chambers at this murder mill called belzec.

Heinrich Barbl- during his time under aktion t4, he put names of the dead on urns with a stamping machine. Apparently he was stupid and didn't like his colleagues. He had some skills as a plumber though, so, he built some of the gas chambers. Definitely chosen for his cold and calculated experience as a minister of death in the crucible of t4, right?

Lorenz Hackenholt- in t4 he drove a bus and cremated bodies. Apparently someone he worked with heard there was a gas chamber though, although neither he nor his colleague ever saw or worked in it. Wikipedia feels a need to mention that specifically though, feel free to look it up. He also designed all of the gas chambers that used stationary motors in the aktion Reinhard camps. Belzec even had a sign over the first gas chamber that read 'Hackenholt Foundation'. Incredible.

Johann Niemann- another fellow involved with cremation. This fellow was a corpse burner during t4. He apparently had an affinity for having coats stolen from dead jews tailored to fit, and, as a result he was murder during the sobibor uprising with an axe during an alteration. Oh, he was also in charge of the 'killing facility' at the camp.

Anton Getzinger- not t4, but, worth mentioning, he blew himself up with a hand grenade because he wanted to shoot a machine gun, I swear. They totally made up his death certificate to reflect being killed in action in Serbia.

Paul Bredow- during t4, from what I gather, this fellow was in the laundry room. When he was moved to Aktion Reinhard, he was worked at sobibor and treblinka. His favorite hobby was to shoot jews with a pistol, apparently. Of course, there is all kind of other testimony about how particularly sadistic this former laundry guy was. These t4 people, they are real killers.

Willi Mentz- this big fella was a farmer during t4. At Treblinka, Mentz was subordinate to SS-Unterscharführer August Miete. Upon his arrival there, he was tasked by SS-Sturmbannführer Christian Wirth with supervising the hands-on killing of Jews at the so-called Lazaret, a fake infirmary, surrounded by the barbed wire fence where the sick, old, wounded and "difficult" new arrivals were taken directly from the Holocaust trains. The Lazaret killing station was dressed with the Red Cross flag. Mentz wore an easily recognizable white doctor's smock for deceit. His fresh new victims were taken behind the barracks to the edge of an open excavation seven metres deep, where the corpses of prisoners were smouldering. They were executed while facing the inferno. Mentz shot thousands of Jews through the back of the neck and pushed their bodies into the flames. He was known as "Frankenstein" to the prisoners, one of the most-feared overseers among the work-brigades. According to one source: "The only thing that is certain is that the number of Jews from the transports he killed single-handedly runs into thousands". In December 1943 Mentz was sent for a short time to Sobibor extermination camp.

(Of course, he also, you know, ran the agricultural detail, but, only briefly, you see, because he was a cold blooded monster)

There are of course a few more, but from this I think the forum may be able to get the idea.

Another important note is that the lines these people took to get from their killing duties at t4 to the aktion Reinhard murder mills were not all straight. That doesn't really matter though, does it. Because, they were obviously picked because they were monsters.

[bombsaway]

I trust your main purpose here is to counter the T4 connection argument. This isn't really going to work.

The connection is blatant https://x.com/i/grok?conversation=1895138855117861156

AI shows most of the SS at Treblinka came from T4 background, among the camps commandants, this is what it looks like

TREBLINKA COMMANDANTS

Theodor van Eupen (SS-Sturmbannführer) - Commandant of Treblinka I labor camp - NO T4 CONNECTION
Irmfried Eberl (SS-Obersturmführer) - First Commandant of Treblinka II - T4 CONNECTION: Medical director in T4 killing centers
Franz Stangl (SS-Obersturmführer) - Second Commandant of Treblinka II - T4 CONNECTION: Deputy office manager in T4 centers
Kurt Franz (SS-Untersturmführer) - Last Commandant of Treblinka II - T4 CONNECTION: Cook in T4 euthanasia centers

DEPUTY COMMANDANTS

Karl Pötzinger (SS-Oberscharführer) - Deputy commandant, head of cremation - T4 CONNECTION: "Burner" in T4 centers, cremating bodies
Heinrich Matthes (SS-Scharführer) - Deputy commandant, chief of extermination area - T4 CONNECTION: Worked in T4 photo laboratory

I checked and verified these personally. Only Eupen didn't. Eberl was literally a doctor who headed two euthanasia centers.

The extermination center I investigated most closely was Chelmno. The connection here is even more blatant (SK lange), with documents explicitly tying their activities at this time to mass euthanasia programs and killing of 100,000 Jews.

[Stubble]

My main thrust is to show the exaggerated misframing of the significance of prior assignment to the euthanasia program.

Beyond changing the name of Aktion Reinhardt, and then weaving a narrative around it, these individuals go from being cooks, drivers, crematoria personnel etc to being comic book villains.

It is ridiculous.

[bombsaway]

My main thrust is to show the exaggerated misframing of the significance of prior assignment to the euthanasia program.

Beyond changing the name of Aktion Reinhardt, and then weaving a narrative around it, these individuals go from being cooks, drivers, crematoria personnel etc to being comic book villains.

It is ridiculous.

The name (aktion reinhardt) is some times spelled Reinhard, so to say that they changed it is misleading https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... tml#_doc62

The framing of these people as comic book villains is also, just not how historians see the event.

It appears you're decided on what happened, this is fair in theory, I'm decided as well. But you should understand the other side and frame them correctly. That's a huge difference between me and you. I'm not really interested in going through that with you, but would encourage you to digest much more material about orthodoxy and try your best to 'strongman' them. This is my approach with revisionists. I piece together and evaluate their strongest arguments.

[Stubble]

No, this is misleading;

Operation Reinhard was initiated in the autumn of 1941. The operation was later named after SS General Reinhard Heydrich. Heydrich died in June 1942 from injuries sustained during an assassination attempt by Czech partisans. From September 1939 until his death, he served as chief of the Reich Security Main Office (Reichssicherheitshauptamt, RSHA). The RSHA was the Nazi agency responsible for coordinating the deportation of European Jews to killing centers in German-occupied Poland.

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/ ... z-reinhard

Deliberately misleading

See thread located here: https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?t= ... d85da9c07c

[HansHill]

To add, it seems Mr Stubble is also demonstrating quite admirably that the T4 -> AR re-assignment looks:

- a lot less like muh evil Nazis being handpicked to slaughter Jews because they are emotionless ice cold murder machines, and
- a lot more like the restructuring of competent operational staff from a complex yet redundant operation, to one that is complex and mission critical

So far, Mr Stubble is succeeding quite handily.

[bombsaway]

To add, it seems Mr Stubble is also demonstrating quite admirably that the T4 -> AR re-assignment looks:

- a lot less like muh evil Nazis being handpicked to slaughter Jews because they are emotionless ice cold murder machines, and
- a lot more like the restructuring of competent operational staff from a complex yet redundant operation, to one that is complex and mission critical

So far, Mr Stubble is succeeding quite handily.

I finished the analysis of leadership at Reinhardt camps. I may have made some mistakes, I checked everything but may have missed something, but this is how it looks to me right now.

TREBLINKA EXTERMINATION CAMP
TREBLINKA COMMANDANTS

Irmfried Eberl (SS-Obersturmführer) - First Commandant of Treblinka II - T4 CONNECTION: Medical director in T4 killing centers
Franz Stangl (SS-Obersturmführer) - Second Commandant of Treblinka II - T4 CONNECTION: Deputy office manager in T4 centers
Kurt Franz (SS-Untersturmführer) - Last Commandant of Treblinka II - T4 CONNECTION: Cook in T4 euthanasia centers

DEPUTY COMMANDANTS

Karl Pötzinger (SS-Oberscharführer) - Deputy commandant, head of cremation - T4 CONNECTION: "Burner" in T4 centers, cremating bodies
Heinrich Matthes (SS-Scharführer) - Deputy commandant, chief of extermination area - T4 CONNECTION: Worked in T4 photo laboratory

BELZEC EXTERMINATION CAMP
COMMANDANTS

Christian Wirth (SS-Hauptsturmführer) - First Commandant (December 1941 - August 1942) - T4 CONNECTION: Inspector in T4 euthanasia centers, key figure in developing gassing procedures
Gottlieb Hering (SS-Hauptsturmführer) - Second Commandant (August 1942 - June 1943) - T4 CONNECTION: Administrative director at Hartheim and Brandenburg T4 centers

DEPUTY COMMANDANTS

Josef Oberhauser (SS-Obersturmführer) - Deputy to Wirth - T4 CONNECTION: Wirth's assistant at various T4 euthanasia centers
Gottfried Schwarz (SS-Untersturmführer) - Deputy to Hering - T4 CONNECTION: Worked at Grafeneck and Hadamar T4 centers

SOBIBOR EXTERMINATION CAMP
COMMANDANTS

Franz Stangl (SS-Obersturmführer) - First Operating Commandant (April 1942 - August 1942) - T4 CONNECTION: Deputy office manager at Hartheim T4 center
Franz Reichleitner (SS-Obersturmführer) - Second Commandant (September 1942 - October 1943) - T4 CONNECTION: Administrative officer at Hartheim T4 center

DEPUTY COMMANDANTS

Gustav Wagner (SS-Oberscharführer) - Deputy commandant (Quartermaster) - T4 CONNECTION: Worked at Hartheim T4 center
Johann Niemann (SS-Untersturmführer) - Deputy commandant, killed in the revolt - T4 CONNECTION: Served at Grafeneck, Brandenburg, and Bernburg T4 centers
Karl Frenzel (SS-Oberscharführer) - Commandant of Camp I (forced labor camp) - T4 CONNECTION: Guard at Brandenburg and Hadamar T4 centers
Hermann Michel (SS-Oberscharführer) - Deputy commandant, gave deceptive speeches - T4 CONNECTION: Worked as a nurse at Hadamar and Sonnenstein T4 centers

So by my updated count, every single commandant or deputy commandant previously worked in T4. Eupen I had made a mistake about. The connection is not weak. Even assuming they were transferred because T4 ended (it didn't end, in actuality), this is a mighty coincidence. There were thousands of camps, hospitals where they could go. Yet they ended up running the Reinhardt camps.

As for Chelmno, the first Commandant, Lange, is directly implicated in killing activities through T4. https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... erman.html

[Stubble]

You seem to be missing the point Bombsaway.

[bombsaway]

You seem to be missing the point Bombsaway.

What's the point? It seems valid that orthodox historians would draw a connection here. It's supported in the witness testimony too.

[Stubble]

I'd say look at the contents of the thread, but, you are in it so I assume that you did.

If I was somehow unclear in my point, I apologize.

I am unsure how I can be any clearer however.

[Numar Patru]

What’s important is that the commandants and very specifically Wirth were drawn from T4. If Wirth in particular brought along staff whom he thought would be at least pliable if not enthusiastic in the extermination of Jews isn’t difficult to imagine. So what if someone had been a cook? Was he willing to do dirty work? Did Wirth have some leverage over him? Those are the questions that bear asking.

[bombsaway]

I'd say look at the contents of the thread, but, you are in it so I assume that you did.

If I was somehow unclear in my point, I apologize.

I am unsure how I can be any clearer however.

I think if you tried to sum up your argument in simple terms it would be helpful for everyone, including yourself.

eg it doesn't make sense that a cook would serve as commandant of top secret SS camp that processed 700,000 Jews, so it didn't happen

or, that all the leaders of Reinhardt camps were T4 veterans had nothing to do with why they were chosen, it's just a coincidence, therefore the connection is invalid or very weak

My assessment of you is that your thought process isn't very developed here.I think you're getting hung up on minor details that you are incredulous about yet can't formulate what it all means. Thesis man, what is the thesis?

[Stubble]

I'd say look at the contents of the thread, but, you are in it so I assume that you did.

If I was somehow unclear in my point, I apologize.

I am unsure how I can be any clearer however.

I think if you tried to sum up your argument in simple terms it would be helpful for everyone, including yourself.

eg it doesn't make sense that a cook would serve as commandant of top secret SS camp that processed 700,000 Jews, so it didn't happen

or, that all the leaders of Reinhardt camps were T4 veterans had nothing to do with why they were chosen, it's just a coincidence, therefore the connection is invalid or very weak

My assessment of you is that your thought process isn't very developed here.I think you're getting hung up on minor details that you are incredulous about yet can't formulate what it all means. Thesis man, what is the thesis?

My main thrust is to show the exaggerated misframing of the significance of prior assignment to the euthanasia program.

Beyond changing the name of Aktion Reinhardt, and then weaving a narrative around it, these individuals go from being cooks, drivers, crematoria personnel etc to being comic book villains.

It is ridiculous.

Again, I don't know how to be any more transparent with my words, or concise, or explanatory.

[bombsaway]

I'd say look at the contents of the thread, but, you are in it so I assume that you did.

If I was somehow unclear in my point, I apologize.

I am unsure how I can be any clearer however.

I think if you tried to sum up your argument in simple terms it would be helpful for everyone, including yourself.

eg it doesn't make sense that a cook would serve as commandant of top secret SS camp that processed 700,000 Jews, so it didn't happen

or, that all the leaders of Reinhardt camps were T4 veterans had nothing to do with why they were chosen, it's just a coincidence, therefore the connection is invalid or very weak

My assessment of you is that your thought process isn't very developed here.I think you're getting hung up on minor details that you are incredulous about yet can't formulate what it all means. Thesis man, what is the thesis?

My main thrust is to show the exaggerated misframing of the significance of prior assignment to the euthanasia program.

Beyond changing the name of Aktion Reinhardt, and then weaving a narrative around it, these individuals go from being cooks, drivers, crematoria personnel etc to being comic book villains.

It is ridiculous.

Again, I don't know how to be any more transparent with my words, or concise, or explanatory.

So what was misframed exactly? Start with the first name on the list and be concrete. If he checks out, you can move onto the next one. Explain exactly where historians are going wrong. And you should quote historians just so you can be sure you're not strawmanning.

The idea that these people were monsters is not the mainstream position in Holocaust historiography, eg

Ordinary Men
Browning is best known for his 1992 book Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland, a study of German Ordnungspolizei (Order Police) Reserve Unit 101.[8] The battalion committed massacres and round-ups of Jews for deportations to Nazi death camps in German-occupied Poland in 1942. The conclusion of the book, influenced in part by the famous Milgram experiments popularized in the 1970s, was that the men of Unit 101 killed out of obedience to authority and peer pressure.[9]

As presented in the study, the men of Unit 101 were not ardent Nazis but ordinary middle-aged men of working class background from Hamburg, who had been drafted but found to be ineligible for regular military duty. After their return to occupied Poland in June 1942, the men were ordered to terrorize Jews in the ghettos during Operation Reinhard and carry out massacres of Polish Jews (men, women, and children) in the towns of Józefów and Łomazy.[10] In other cases, they were ordered to kill a certain number of Jews in a town or area, usually helped by Trawnikis. The commander of the unit once gave his men the choice of opting out if they found it too hard, but fewer than 12 men did so in a battalion of 500.[11] Browning provides evidence to support the notion that not all of the men were hateful antisemites. He includes the testimony of men who said that they begged to be released from the task and to be placed elsewhere. In one instance, two fathers claimed that they could not kill children and so asked to be given other work. Browning also tells of a man who demanded his release, obtained it, and was promoted once he had returned to Germany.

[Stubble]

Dude, I literally already jumped that ring in my first post.

For fucks sake.

So far as these guys being comic book villains, go look at the court transcripts. They are absolute caricatures of human beings.

Now we are going to talk about how some kind of mass formation psychosis literally turned a cook into a murder machine? The guy became a pencil pusher.

Look, do you believe in the treblinka toilet goblin, dj poop master fresh, who wore a grandfather clock around his neck flava flave style? Because that guy is a cartoon as well.

Holocaust promoters are making something sinister out of something benign here. This is like the proof for gassings at Auschwitz being documents referring to clothing fumigation and storage facilities outside the krema being indicative of mass gassings somehow.

Of course these personnel were 'ordinary men', I'm not the one claiming something to the contrary.

Being a bus driver or a mortician doesn't turn someone into a cold blooded killing machine.

Their previous employment shouldn't be an issue here, especially given how innocuous it was. They weren't 'experienced in gassing people'. They were cooks, bus drivers and other functionaries. Not killers.

The whole narrative of 'they took their experience' is garbage, and the cartoonish way they are presented is a real disservice to history as it is inaccurate and misinformative.