were to guess why no t4 personnel were chosen to perform gassing that had experience with gassing, it would be because THERE WERE NONE.
were to guess why no t4 personnel were chosen to perform gassing that had experience with gassing, it would be because THERE WERE NONE.
The name (aktion reinhardt) is some times spelled Reinhard, so to say that they changed it is misleading https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... tml#_doc62Stubble wrote: ↑Thu Feb 27, 2025 6:41 pm My main thrust is to show the exaggerated misframing of the significance of prior assignment to the euthanasia program.
Beyond changing the name of Aktion Reinhardt, and then weaving a narrative around it, these individuals go from being cooks, drivers, crematoria personnel etc to being comic book villains.
It is ridiculous.
Operation Reinhard was initiated in the autumn of 1941. The operation was later named after SS General Reinhard Heydrich. Heydrich died in June 1942 from injuries sustained during an assassination attempt by Czech partisans. From September 1939 until his death, he served as chief of the Reich Security Main Office (Reichssicherheitshauptamt, RSHA). The RSHA was the Nazi agency responsible for coordinating the deportation of European Jews to killing centers in German-occupied Poland.
were to guess why no t4 personnel were chosen to perform gassing that had experience with gassing, it would be because THERE WERE NONE.
I finished the analysis of leadership at Reinhardt camps. I may have made some mistakes, I checked everything but may have missed something, but this is how it looks to me right now.HansHill wrote: ↑Thu Feb 27, 2025 7:58 pm To add, it seems Mr Stubble is also demonstrating quite admirably that the T4 -> AR re-assignment looks:
- a lot less like muh evil Nazis being handpicked to slaughter Jews because they are emotionless ice cold murder machines, and
- a lot more like the restructuring of competent operational staff from a complex yet redundant operation, to one that is complex and mission critical
So far, Mr Stubble is succeeding quite handily.
So by my updated count, every single commandant or deputy commandant previously worked in T4. Eupen I had made a mistake about. The connection is not weak. Even assuming they were transferred because T4 ended (it didn't end, in actuality), this is a mighty coincidence. There were thousands of camps, hospitals where they could go. Yet they ended up running the Reinhardt camps.TREBLINKA EXTERMINATION CAMP
TREBLINKA COMMANDANTS
Irmfried Eberl (SS-Obersturmführer) - First Commandant of Treblinka II - T4 CONNECTION: Medical director in T4 killing centers
Franz Stangl (SS-Obersturmführer) - Second Commandant of Treblinka II - T4 CONNECTION: Deputy office manager in T4 centers
Kurt Franz (SS-Untersturmführer) - Last Commandant of Treblinka II - T4 CONNECTION: Cook in T4 euthanasia centers
DEPUTY COMMANDANTS
Karl Pötzinger (SS-Oberscharführer) - Deputy commandant, head of cremation - T4 CONNECTION: "Burner" in T4 centers, cremating bodies
Heinrich Matthes (SS-Scharführer) - Deputy commandant, chief of extermination area - T4 CONNECTION: Worked in T4 photo laboratory
BELZEC EXTERMINATION CAMP
COMMANDANTS
Christian Wirth (SS-Hauptsturmführer) - First Commandant (December 1941 - August 1942) - T4 CONNECTION: Inspector in T4 euthanasia centers, key figure in developing gassing procedures
Gottlieb Hering (SS-Hauptsturmführer) - Second Commandant (August 1942 - June 1943) - T4 CONNECTION: Administrative director at Hartheim and Brandenburg T4 centers
DEPUTY COMMANDANTS
Josef Oberhauser (SS-Obersturmführer) - Deputy to Wirth - T4 CONNECTION: Wirth's assistant at various T4 euthanasia centers
Gottfried Schwarz (SS-Untersturmführer) - Deputy to Hering - T4 CONNECTION: Worked at Grafeneck and Hadamar T4 centers
SOBIBOR EXTERMINATION CAMP
COMMANDANTS
Franz Stangl (SS-Obersturmführer) - First Operating Commandant (April 1942 - August 1942) - T4 CONNECTION: Deputy office manager at Hartheim T4 center
Franz Reichleitner (SS-Obersturmführer) - Second Commandant (September 1942 - October 1943) - T4 CONNECTION: Administrative officer at Hartheim T4 center
DEPUTY COMMANDANTS
Gustav Wagner (SS-Oberscharführer) - Deputy commandant (Quartermaster) - T4 CONNECTION: Worked at Hartheim T4 center
Johann Niemann (SS-Untersturmführer) - Deputy commandant, killed in the revolt - T4 CONNECTION: Served at Grafeneck, Brandenburg, and Bernburg T4 centers
Karl Frenzel (SS-Oberscharführer) - Commandant of Camp I (forced labor camp) - T4 CONNECTION: Guard at Brandenburg and Hadamar T4 centers
Hermann Michel (SS-Oberscharführer) - Deputy commandant, gave deceptive speeches - T4 CONNECTION: Worked as a nurse at Hadamar and Sonnenstein T4 centers
were to guess why no t4 personnel were chosen to perform gassing that had experience with gassing, it would be because THERE WERE NONE.
were to guess why no t4 personnel were chosen to perform gassing that had experience with gassing, it would be because THERE WERE NONE.
I think if you tried to sum up your argument in simple terms it would be helpful for everyone, including yourself.
bombsaway wrote: ↑Fri Feb 28, 2025 1:50 amI think if you tried to sum up your argument in simple terms it would be helpful for everyone, including yourself.
eg it doesn't make sense that a cook would serve as commandant of top secret SS camp that processed 700,000 Jews, so it didn't happen
or, that all the leaders of Reinhardt camps were T4 veterans had nothing to do with why they were chosen, it's just a coincidence, therefore the connection is invalid or very weak
My assessment of you is that your thought process isn't very developed here.I think you're getting hung up on minor details that you are incredulous about yet can't formulate what it all means. Thesis man, what is the thesis?
Again, I don't know how to be any more transparent with my words, or concise, or explanatory.Stubble wrote: ↑Thu Feb 27, 2025 6:41 pm My main thrust is to show the exaggerated misframing of the significance of prior assignment to the euthanasia program.
Beyond changing the name of Aktion Reinhardt, and then weaving a narrative around it, these individuals go from being cooks, drivers, crematoria personnel etc to being comic book villains.
It is ridiculous.
were to guess why no t4 personnel were chosen to perform gassing that had experience with gassing, it would be because THERE WERE NONE.
So what was misframed exactly? Start with the first name on the list and be concrete. If he checks out, you can move onto the next one. Explain exactly where historians are going wrong. And you should quote historians just so you can be sure you're not strawmanning.Stubble wrote: ↑Fri Feb 28, 2025 1:57 ambombsaway wrote: ↑Fri Feb 28, 2025 1:50 amI think if you tried to sum up your argument in simple terms it would be helpful for everyone, including yourself.
eg it doesn't make sense that a cook would serve as commandant of top secret SS camp that processed 700,000 Jews, so it didn't happen
or, that all the leaders of Reinhardt camps were T4 veterans had nothing to do with why they were chosen, it's just a coincidence, therefore the connection is invalid or very weak
My assessment of you is that your thought process isn't very developed here.I think you're getting hung up on minor details that you are incredulous about yet can't formulate what it all means. Thesis man, what is the thesis?Again, I don't know how to be any more transparent with my words, or concise, or explanatory.Stubble wrote: ↑Thu Feb 27, 2025 6:41 pm My main thrust is to show the exaggerated misframing of the significance of prior assignment to the euthanasia program.
Beyond changing the name of Aktion Reinhardt, and then weaving a narrative around it, these individuals go from being cooks, drivers, crematoria personnel etc to being comic book villains.
It is ridiculous.
Ordinary Men
Browning is best known for his 1992 book Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland, a study of German Ordnungspolizei (Order Police) Reserve Unit 101.[8] The battalion committed massacres and round-ups of Jews for deportations to Nazi death camps in German-occupied Poland in 1942. The conclusion of the book, influenced in part by the famous Milgram experiments popularized in the 1970s, was that the men of Unit 101 killed out of obedience to authority and peer pressure.[9]
As presented in the study, the men of Unit 101 were not ardent Nazis but ordinary middle-aged men of working class background from Hamburg, who had been drafted but found to be ineligible for regular military duty. After their return to occupied Poland in June 1942, the men were ordered to terrorize Jews in the ghettos during Operation Reinhard and carry out massacres of Polish Jews (men, women, and children) in the towns of Józefów and Łomazy.[10] In other cases, they were ordered to kill a certain number of Jews in a town or area, usually helped by Trawnikis. The commander of the unit once gave his men the choice of opting out if they found it too hard, but fewer than 12 men did so in a battalion of 500.[11] Browning provides evidence to support the notion that not all of the men were hateful antisemites. He includes the testimony of men who said that they begged to be released from the task and to be placed elsewhere. In one instance, two fathers claimed that they could not kill children and so asked to be given other work. Browning also tells of a man who demanded his release, obtained it, and was promoted once he had returned to Germany.
were to guess why no t4 personnel were chosen to perform gassing that had experience with gassing, it would be because THERE WERE NONE.