Chronology of the Holocaust

[bombsaway]

Alright, well, I see narrative, but it lacks substance.

Let start with the Einsatzgruppen I suppose since they have been thrust right in without much preface.

What was the stated task and purpose of the Einsatzgruppen, what were their general orders, and what were their responsibilities? Further, did they generate and submit reports up the chain of command and are those reports extant and available for review both translated and in their original form for comparison?

These would be the OSRs. The reports are very detailed https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/th ... on-reports

At least some of them are viewable in original form, but this requires digging. Ultimately sources that are specifically aimed at countering Holocaust denial are best for these, like HC blog. You can see that for Babi Yar they include the originals which include some these EG activity reports https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... 29-30.html

The revisionist view is that these documents are fabricated. Something like the Jaeger report is fabricated. The genocidal nature of what was going on is pretty obvious you don't really need to read between the lines. My feeling about revisionists are they will question the authenticity of certain documents when making textual arguments that there's nothing serious going on is hard or impossible. So with some EG documents they'll say they are legit, but when it comes to something like this "activity report 97" from Babi Yar documents, is unequivocally faked. This is their view, originals be damned. There's nothing textually there that really points to fakery, rather the absence of proper exhumations of the site.

As has been proven, Jews were significantly involved in the arsons. Allegedly 150,000 Jews here. Confirmation of these figures has not been possible yet. 1,600 arrests were made in the course of the first action. Measures were started to register the entire Jewish population. Execution of at least 50,000 Jews is planned. Wehrmacht welcomes measures and demands radical action."

"What was the stated task and purpose of the Einsatzgruppen"

I don't know if this is set out ever, maybe Nick can answer if he reads this. Something like is broad directives I think to police units not eg specifically https://www.yadvashem.org/docs/heydrich ... union.html

If you read the reports you get a good sense of what they were doing. Jews seem to be the priority and the vast majority killed. Way more jews killed than partisans

[Stubble]

Alright, well, I see narrative, but it lacks substance.

Let start with the Einsatzgruppen I suppose since they have been thrust right in without much preface.

What was the stated task and purpose of the Einsatzgruppen, what were their general orders, and what were their responsibilities? Further, did they generate and submit reports up the chain of command and are those reports extant and available for review both translated and in their original form for comparison?

These would be the OSRs. The reports are very detailed https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/th ... on-reports

At least some of them are viewable in original form, but this requires digging. Ultimately sources that are specifically aimed at countering Holocaust denial are best for these, like HC blog. You can see that for Babi Yar they include the originals which include some these EG activity reports https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... 29-30.html

The revisionist view is that these documents are fabricated. Something like the Jaeger report is fabricated. The genocidal nature of what was going on is pretty obvious you don't really need to read between the lines. My feeling about revisionists are they will question the authenticity of certain documents when making textual arguments that there's nothing serious going on is hard or impossible. So with some EG documents they'll say they are legit, but when it comes to something like this "activity report 97" from Babi Yar documents, is unequivocally faked. This is their view, originals be damned. There's nothing textually there that really points to fakery, rather the absence of proper exhumations of the site.

As has been proven, Jews were significantly involved in the arsons. Allegedly 150,000 Jews here. Confirmation of these figures has not been possible yet. 1,600 arrests were made in the course of the first action. Measures were started to register the entire Jewish population. Execution of at least 50,000 Jews is planned. Wehrmacht welcomes measures and demands radical action."

"What was the stated task and purpose of the Einsatzgruppen"

I don't know if this is set out ever, maybe Nick can answer if he reads this. Something like is broad directives I think to police units not eg specifically https://www.yadvashem.org/docs/heydrich ... union.html

If you read the reports you get a good sense of what they were doing. Jews seem to be the priority and the vast majority killed. Way more jews killed than partisans

Let's grant the OSR's as authentic, you point to specifically the one on babi yar, and I suppose that's fair, we will grant that one specifically.

You say these reports indicate a prioritization of jews. When I look at the reports, they paint a different picture for me. The Einsatzgruppen seem particularly concerned with communist intelligentsia, communist records, partisans etc.

When I look that they OSR concerning babi yar, to me it looks like a pogrom. They facilitated it, yes, but when i look at the report, they didn't organize it.

Going back to their task and purpose, it was outlined in their formation. Their general orders as well are extant. Also their responsibilities are outlined.

They were what we would term today 'counter insurgency experts' and would have been something similar to Green Berets in that they worked closely with locals and could not have met their goals without them. Their general orders and responsibilities reflect this.

Now, we could debate the authenticity of the OSR's, but, ultimately, if you look at them in total and without bias they don't outline an 'extermination campaign' but rather are reflective of the operations of the Einsatzgruppen as they carried out their duties. I see no reason personally to dispute them in total, although I could see some of them being misinformation. It is a common tactic to seed false documents in with real ones to make them harder to spot.

Keep in mind, the Einsatzgruppen were a small force and they were not given priority with concern to equipment, ammunition, transport etc. They were a light and mobile backline force, small in number and with a broad objective.

To ascribe to this small number of men the ability to carry out the crimes with which they have been charged is to make them into some kind of super men, able to be everywhere at once and doing all manner of things at the same time.

For me, it doesn't pass muster. I feel their role in the events of ww2 have been propagandized and that the reality of their operations were much more mundane.

So far as actually targeting jews, with specificity, for extermination, I find the idea dubious. Now, I have no doubts that they engaged in decimations and reprisals, and I have no doubts that this was extended to women and children. I state that this isn't my opinion, but a matter of factual public record.

When you get to talking about 'gas vans' and 'death squads' that's where my hackles go up. I don't see it reflected in the physical record. I do see it vividly described by Soviet Propagandists however.

[bombsaway]

Let's zero in on Babi Yar then, because the documentary records are pretty solid.

I think you're stretching things by calling it a pogrom. Pogroms are definitionally riots. The killings here were conducted with a high degree of organization, planning, and deception. One could call it a reprisal perhaps, but even this is hard to say since they didn't publicize it. The idea of a reprisal is you do it to discourage others, you make it public. Through the sources you can see that they were in fact secretive about the operation. If you continue to look through these activities with me you'll see that this is a pattern. They didn't want other Jews to know about what they were doing.

This is how it was conducted, according to contemporary German documents you can find on that page I linked to

"It is ordered that the Jews are to be "resettled". This is done in such a way that the Jews are ordered to gather in the following night with their best clothes and jewlry at collection places. No difference is made between classes, sex and age. They are then brought to a previously selected site outside the town. On the pretext that certain formalities are still to be fulfilled, they have to put aside their jewlry and clothes. They are taken off side the street and liquidated. The resulting situations are so shocking that they can not be described. The consequences for the German commandos are inevitable. In general, the execution can only be carried out under numbness with alcohol. A SD officer ordered to watch had to endure a nightmare of the most dreadful kind the following night according to his description."

"Several retaliatory measures were carried out during large scale actions. The largest action took place in Kiev after the capture; Jews and their entire families were exclusively used for this. The difficulties which are encountered from such a large scale action - espescially with regards to the gathering - were overcome by using using wall posters requesting the Jewish population to the resettlement. Although it was expected that about 5,000 to 6,000 Jews would participate, more than 30,000 Jews showed up, who still believed into their resettlement until shortly before the execution thanks to an extremely clever organization. Even if about 75,000 Jews have liquidated so far, it is clear that the solution of the Jewish question is not possible in this way."

This is from the diary of Irina A. Chorošunova , which gives another perspective

"September 30, 1941

We still do not know what they did with the Jews. People who have been in Luk'janovskoe cemetery are spreading horrible rumors. But so far it is impossible to believe these rumors. It is said that the Jews are being shot. Those who accompanied them to the place where they were supposed to appear, saw that the Jews go through a formation of German soldiers, dropping all things. Their companions were chased away by the Germans.Some say they shoot the Jews with machine guns, that they shoot all of them without exception. The others say that sixteen railroad trains have been prepared for them to take them away. But where? Nobody knows any answer. One knows only one thing: all papers, belongings and food are taken from them. Then they are driven to Babij Jar and there ... I do not know what is there. I know only one thing, there is something terrible, horrible going on, something incomprehensible that can not be understood or explained.

October 2, 1941

Everyone says that the Jews are murdered. No, not are murdered, but have already been murdered. All, without exception - old people, women and children. Those who have returned home on Monday have been shot, too. This is still what is said, but there can be no doubt that it is true. There were no trains leaving Lukjanovka. People have seen cars transporting warm clothes and other things from the cemetery. The German "diligence". They have already sorted the trophies! A Russian girl has escorted his girlfriend to the cemetery and sneaked from the other side through the fence. She has seen how undressed people were led in direction of Babij Jar and heard shots of guns. There are more and more of these rumors and reports. Their enormity does not want to enter our heads. But we are compelled to believe them, for the shooting of the Jews is a fact. A fact that is beginning to rob us all of our minds. It is impossible to recognize this fact and simply live on. The women around us cry. And we? We also cried on September 29, when we thought they were being transported to the concentration camp. But now? Is it possible to cry?"

It's a strawman to say the killing were conducted by just a few soldiers. This is the AI analysis quoting from sources that we can reference on that HC blog page

Based on the documents, several German units were involved in carrying out the Babi Yar massacre:

Sonderkommando 4a - This was one of the main units involved. According to Activity Report USSR no. 101:
"Sonderkommando 4a in collaboration with the group staff and two commandos of Police Regiment South executed 33,771 Jews"
Two Kommandos from Police Regiment South - Multiple documents confirm their participation:


The Higher SS and Police Leader Russia-South report of September 28, 1941 mentions "Police Regiment South cleaning action and cordon service in Kiev"
Activity Report USSR no. 106 states that the operation was done "in collaboration with the group staff and 2 Kommandos of the Police Regiment South"


Police Battalion 303 - Evidence for their involvement comes from two police service passes:


Erich Karrasch's pass shows he performed "security and cleaning tasks in Kiev" between September 23 - October 14, 1941
Another member Erich S. had the same entry in his service pass for the same dates

As for total numbers of German personnel, the documents don't provide an exact count. However, we can make some estimates:

A typical Sonderkommando had around 100-150 men
Two Kommandos from Police Regiment South would likely comprise 200-300 men
Police Battalion 303 typically had around 500 men

So the total German manpower involved was likely between 800-1000 men, though not all would have participated directly in the shootings.
Additionally, Ukrainian auxiliaries were used for support roles, as mentioned in Activity Report USSR no. 106:
"These announcements were posted by members of the Ukrainian militia in the entire city"
The operation was coordinated at a high level, as indicated by the report that it was done "in agreement with the city commander" (Activity Report USSR no. 106).
The documents show this was a carefully planned operation involving multiple German police and security units working in coordination, though exact personnel numbers are not specified in the primary sources.

Likely over a thousand participated.

It's also a strawman to say " they were not given priority with concern to equipment, ammunition, transport etc"

Look at document 2. On September 27th , 3 days after the fire started, the army delivered 100,000 machine gun rounds to SS police for this action. So they had full cooperation and perhaps even precedence. Nick can speak more to this, I believe there are explicit orders giving them some form of authority over the army when it comes to these killings. But it's a lot for me to look through right now, my memory is rather vague on this stuff.

Where the word genocidal starts to be bandied around is when we think about the objective here. It wasn't publicized so it wasn't about encouraging other Jews from being up to mischief. I think the goal was population reduction. This doesn't mean the motives were sadistic in nature, that they were killing them because they enjoyed it. They viewed these people as enemies. Even the children, future enemies. So it was just another aspect of the war. Bolshevism too, was something intrinsically Jewish, even though most of the current political leadership wasn't Jewish and Jews didn't compromise the majority of party members. Perception rules though, in these matters.

[Stubble]

Again, we are taking it for granted out of hand. Then we are assuming no embellishment.

Also, you are not quoting from the OSR, but rather, you are using other supporting data from various places the patents of which I cannot be sure.

Let's stick to the OSR.

The role of the Einsatzgruppen specifically looks supervisory in nature. They didn't write or distribute the local notices for example.

[bombsaway]

Again, we are taking it for granted out of hand. Then we are assuming no embellishment.

Also, you are not quoting from the OSR, but rather, you are using other supporting data from various places the patents of which I cannot be sure.

Let's stick to the OSR.

The role of the Einsatzgruppen specifically looks supervisory in nature. They didn't write or distribute the local notices for example.

Sure...

Here's source 10 Activity report USSR no. 106 of the RSHA of 7 October 1941

Consequently all Jews of Kiev were requested, in agreement with the city commander, to appear on Monday, 29 September by 8 o'clock at a designated place. These announcements were posted by members of the Ukrainian militia in the entire city. Simultaneously it was announced orally that all Jews were to be moved. In collaboration with the group staff and 2 Kommandos of the Police Regiment South, the Sonderkommando 4a executed on 29 and 30 September 33,771 Jews. Money, valuables, underwear and clothing were secured and placed partly at the disposal of the NSV Nazi Party Public Welfare Organization for use of the racial Germans, partly given to the city administration authorities for use of the needy population. The transaction was carried out without friction. No incidents occurred. The "Resettlement measure" against the Jews was approved throughout by the population. The fact that in reality the Jews were liquidated was hardly known until now, according to up-to-date experiences it would, however, hardly have been objected to. The measures were also approved by the Wehrmacht. The Jews who were not yet apprehended as well as those who gradually returned from their flight to the city were in each case treated accordingly."

Source 11 is pertinent to your questions Activity report USSR no. 111 of the RSHA of 12 October 1941

"Einsatzgruppe C: Location Kiev, reports:

Security police measures: Sonderkommando 4a has reached the total number of 51,000 executions. With the exception of the special action on 28 and 29 September in Kiev, which was supported by two commandos of Police Regiment South, the executions were carried out by the SK without any other help. Those executed were mostly Jews, a smaller part were political functionaries, saboteurs and plunderers."

So the SK (einsatzgruppen) were supported, meaning they had the lead role

Source 15 I quoted already.

Regarding embellishment, there many corroborating sources here, including from German intelligence (abwehr, source 19).

It might be useful for the purposes of this conversation to just grant these accounts as near enough to the truth. Even if they were overestimating by 2x, that wouldn't shift my argument that this killing was genocidal in nature. I'm not sure what your argument is, tbh.

[Stubble]

Reprisal then. I said pogrom because it is my impression that the locals pushed for it. Regardless it was a retaliation for an arson that left 50,000 homeless. Like you said, it wasn't an act of sadism, the jews of Kiev were seen as the enemy.

So far as the Einsatzgruppen being a handful of soldiers, for task, they were. That's not strawmanning, it's the truth. Look at the contingents.

Going to the nature of their role specifically at Babi Yar, I stated earlier 'supervisory in nature'. You said 'they were the lead'.

I don't think there is as much disagreement here as you think. We mostly agree. I wanted to stick with the OSR 1) because I'm familiar with it 2) I'm comfortable enough with its authenticity.

[TlsMS93]

You can't just look at the Einsatzgruppen reports at face value, although for the most part they may be quite clear. If they were absolutely clear there would be no question of their infallibility in trials like Mainstein.

Areas that are supposedly clean of Jews actually contain a relatively strong Jewish community, including some who are unfit for work. Apart from the fact that these documents are from the Soviet sphere of influence and one officer bragged about having tortured one of these men to obtain a "coherent confession".

One of these reports mentions two categories of Jews, one who managed to free himself by making false statements and later on to talk about "Jews in general" makes no sense.

Why was Yad Vahsem only able to identify 3,000 Jews executed at Babi Yar? You see, they claim to have the identities of over 4.5 million Jews killed in the Holocaust, so the disparity here is huge.

It is clear that the Germans were brutal in their reprisals, especially on the Eastern Front where they believed the war would be decided, so the death of even one German was considered an irreparable loss and in order to pacify the land hundreds of people or entire villages were executed in the area arbitrarily. In Kiev it was special because of bomb explosions in the city after it fell, attributing it to local Jews, but a German officer claimed that 90% of Ukrainian Jews had been evacuated with the Red Army after the first executions in the USSR.

According to Wikipedia there were 3 million Jews in the USSR in 1939, in 1959 there were 2.3 million of them and it kept falling in the following censuses, so were millions really shot or relatively few were and the rest were classified by the Germans as Jews to please their superiors? Did the Germans in the USSR identify Jews based on their own classification or that of the Soviets?

[bombsaway]

Reprisal then. I said pogrom because it is my impression that the locals pushed for it. Regardless it was a retaliation for an arson that left 50,000 homeless. Like you said, it wasn't an act of sadism, the jews of Kiev were seen as the enemy.

It's not my aim right now to litigate whether the killing was justified. If you read certain speeches, like Himmler @ Posen, it's pretty clear the Nazis thought what they were doing was a Good. Eichmann in the Sassen interview too (you can see background and a long quote from Eichmann at the end http://johnshaplin.blogspot.com/2014/10 ... tinna.html ) But yes, from the Nazis' perspective you're looking at a justifiable genocide. Just as the Jews were in someway responsible for the detonations at Kiev (this was part of overall Soviet military strategy, and it was Red Army units that set up the rather sophisticated bombs) they were also responsible for the entire Bolshevik regime, for dragging Germany into the war in the first place.

From Hitler's testament http://www.auschwitz.dk/Will.htm

But I left no doubt about the fact that if the peoples of Europe were again only regarded as so many packages of stock shares by these international money and finance conspirators, then that race, too, which is the truly guilty party in this murderous struggle would also have to be held to account: the Jews! I further left no doubt that this time we would not permit millions of European children of Aryan descent to die of hunger, nor millions of grown-up men to suffer death, nor hundreds of thousands of women and children to be burned and bombed to death in their cities, without the truly guilty party having to atone for its guilt, even if through more humane means.

One point I didn't bring up earlier, which also provides context is that Barbarossa was kind of a failure, despite its seeming success. The goal was to knock the USSR out and by August 1941 this possibility seemed faint at best. This book was pretty eye opening to me, https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/653 ... n-the-east , drawing from German sources to show the sort collective panic they were feeling in August, the realization that the war was going to be what they most feared, not a quick victory, but a long drawn out attritional struggle at which the smaller Germany was going to be at a disadvantage. I think this was a crucial development that had some affect on German policy, transition away from Madagascar plan, and also intensification of killings in the east, which by fall 1941 encompassed Jews, not just males, not just adults, as you can see in the case of Babi Yar.

So far as the Einsatzgruppen being a handful of soldiers, for task, they were. That's not strawmanning, it's the truth. Look at the contingents.

I was responding to this statement of yours "To ascribe to this small number of men the ability to carry out the crimes with which they have been charged is to make them into some kind of super men, able to be everywhere at once and doing all manner of things at the same time." It wasn't a small number of men who carried out the killings, they had support, as you say maybe they were even supervisors more than directly involved in some cases, like at Babi Yar, though the witness evidence points to SK members directly participating in the shootings. So I would still say "lead" but they had a lot of help.

You seem interested in the idea pogroms vs retaliation so I would say we can check out the Stahlecker (commander of Einsatzgruppe A) report and maybe look over their activities

https://pages.uoregon.edu/dluebke/NaziG ... eport.html

So you have statements like this, which show the EG were initiating the pogroms but also wanted to hide their responsibility for that "It was the task of the Security Police to set these self-cleansing movements going and to direct them into the right channels in order to achieve the aim of this cleansing as rapidly as possible. It was no less important to establish as unshakable and provable facts for the future that it was the liberated population itself which took the most severe measures, on its own initiative, against the Bolshevik and Jewish enemy, without any German instruction being evident." The reasons here are important to think about.

According to Wikipedia there were 3 million Jews in the USSR in 1939, in 1959 there were 2.3 million of them and it kept falling in the following censuses, so were millions really shot or relatively few were and the rest were classified by the Germans as Jews to please their superiors? Did the Germans in the USSR identify Jews based on their own classification or that of the Soviets?

There was a mass exodus of Jews from the USSR in the 70s, that's responsible for the decline in population towards the end of the USSR. The 1959 numbers are a little misleading

As of January 15, 1959, the number of Jews in the USSR was 2,268,000—1.09 per cent of the total Soviet population. Twenty years previous, as taken January 17, 1939, the figure was 3,020,000, or 1.78 per cent of the total population. Thus, there are today 752,000 fewer Jews in the Soviet Union than there were twenty years ago. If, moreover, we consider the (estimated) 1,900,000 Jews who were added to the Soviet population from the annexed territories of Eastern Poland, the Baltic countries, Bessarabia, and Northern Bukovina, during the years 1939—41, then the figure would be about 2,652,000 fewer Jews in the Soviet Union today than existed in 1941.

https://www.commentary.org/articles/mar ... -the-jews/

So you can look at percentages and also take into account those annexed territories, which held a massive amount of Jews who were killed at a higher proportion than Soviet Jews, who often had time to flee into the interior.

[Stubble]

Babi Yar is a testament to tragedy. The jews of Kiev were not responsible for the bombings after all. I could make an argument that the Germans were talking about the jews of Kiev being responsible for arsons set after the bombing, but such a line is not useful in advancing the thread.

I will point out something that stands out to me about the incident. That is that the incident itself stands out. It is remarkably out of step with other actions taken by the Einsatzgruppen. This should be remarked on because of both the breadth and the scope of the operation. In my opinion, this bolsters my assertion that the underlying source of motivation for the action was not part of the nature of the Einsatzgruppen in the execution of their duties, but more likely a result of local pressure.

So far as inflammatory statements made prior by political officials in diaries, private meetings or even some speeches, it is my opinion that these statements should be throughly vetted and contextualized. They should also been read compared against their mother tongue as I have noticed a tendency in translations to be particularly inflammatory by assuming the absolute worst possible translation sometimes even creating intent by the simple twisting of these words.

That is not to say that there was not judenhass. There most certainly was judenhass. To ascribe to it something that raises to the level of genocidal hatred and a motivation for the events known as 'the holocaust' isn't what I draw from them.

So far as the patents of orders and documentation, another thing I've noticed is that the further east you get, and the more outlandish the claim is, the less the documentation appears to have been penned by someone who natively spoke German. I'm pointing specifically to 'gas vans' and 'murder squads'.

During the unfolding of the war, many events transpired, all of them avoidable and for that reason alone regrettable. Add to it that the fostering of racial (or ethnic or religious if you prefer) tensions and open violence and it paints a rather ugly picture of the warfare waged in the east, not that warfare in general is particularly pretty.

[TlsMS93]

As of January 15, 1959, the number of Jews in the USSR was 2,268,000—1.09 per cent of the total Soviet population. Twenty years previous, as taken January 17, 1939, the figure was 3,020,000, or 1.78 per cent of the total population. Thus, there are today 752,000 fewer Jews in the Soviet Union than there were twenty years ago. If, moreover, we consider the (estimated) 1,900,000 Jews who were added to the Soviet population from the annexed territories of Eastern Poland, the Baltic countries, Bessarabia, and Northern Bukovina, during the years 1939—41, then the figure would be about 2,652,000 fewer Jews in the Soviet Union today than existed in 1941.

https://www.commentary.org/articles/mar ... -the-jews/

So you can look at percentages and also take into account those annexed territories, which held a massive amount of Jews who were killed at a higher proportion than Soviet Jews, who often had time to flee into the interior.

Almost 2 million Jews between the Reich and the USSR? Where does the Holocaust fit in then? Those who would not have had time to flee and did not have time to do so, according to the Holocaust narrative, but rather the Jews deep inside the Soviet Union. So where did this surplus of Jews between the Reich and the USSR come from?

You know what I see in your comment, that the Germans pushed 2 million Jews into the USSR and did not return with them as the front turned against Germany, otherwise the Holocaust would not have happened and the Soviet Jewish population would have had to be smaller than the 1.5 million of them in 1959 taking into account the birth rate in those 20 years.

[bombsaway]

That is that the incident itself stands out. It is remarkably out of step with other actions taken by the Einsatzgruppen. This should be remarked on because of both the breadth and the scope of the operation. In my opinion, this bolsters my assertion that the underlying source of motivation for the action was not part of the nature of the Einsatzgruppen in the execution of their duties, but more likely a result of local pressure.

Local pressure from Ukrainians? You don't really see that, eg in the diary I showed you. It's a speculative point.

Actually if we continue to go through the accounts and documents, you'll see Babi Yar isn't out of step. The death toll is very high, but even this was matched more or less at certain places. My suggestion is to pick an area (doesn't matter where) and research what happened there. My hypothesis is you will see something similar to Babi Yar, in terms of killing operations, Jews being told they were resettled, then mass executed in prepared locations.

You can remember my initial assertion too, was that this was a systematic killing program https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=4969#p4969

What makes it systematic is it happened everywhere. Wherever you look you will see the majority of the population (often the entire population) being killed off.

[bombsaway]

As of January 15, 1959, the number of Jews in the USSR was 2,268,000—1.09 per cent of the total Soviet population. Twenty years previous, as taken January 17, 1939, the figure was 3,020,000, or 1.78 per cent of the total population. Thus, there are today 752,000 fewer Jews in the Soviet Union than there were twenty years ago. If, moreover, we consider the (estimated) 1,900,000 Jews who were added to the Soviet population from the annexed territories of Eastern Poland, the Baltic countries, Bessarabia, and Northern Bukovina, during the years 1939—41, then the figure would be about 2,652,000 fewer Jews in the Soviet Union today than existed in 1941.

https://www.commentary.org/articles/mar ... -the-jews/

So you can look at percentages and also take into account those annexed territories, which held a massive amount of Jews who were killed at a higher proportion than Soviet Jews, who often had time to flee into the interior.

Almost 2 million Jews between the Reich and the USSR? Where does the Holocaust fit in then? Those who would not have had time to flee and did not have time to do so, according to the Holocaust narrative, but rather the Jews deep inside the Soviet Union. So where did this surplus of Jews between the Reich and the USSR come from?

You know what I see in your comment, that the Germans pushed 2 million Jews into the USSR and did not return with them as the front turned against Germany, otherwise the Holocaust would not have happened and the Soviet Jewish population would have had to be smaller than the 1.5 million of them in 1959 taking into account the birth rate in those 20 years.

Let me clarify. Here's what actually happened:

1. In 1939, there were about 3 million Jews in the original USSR borders

2. Between 1939-1941, the USSR annexed new territories (Eastern Poland, Baltic states, etc.) which added approximately 1.9 million more Jews to Soviet territory (according to the article, I'm not sure about the numbers but it was a lot)

3. When Germany invaded in 1941:
- Many Soviet Jews managed to evacuate east with the retreating Soviets
- Those who couldn't escape (particularly in the newly annexed western territories) largely fell victim to the EG and other killing operations
- This explains why by 1959 the Soviet Jewish population was down to 2.3 million

The numbers line up with what we know happened: Many Soviet Jews survived by evacuating east, while those who couldn't escape - particularly in the western regions - were killed in large numbers during the German occupation. The population decrease is actually massive, and supported by evidence of both shootings and transfer to extermination centers.

What you seem to be missing is the annexation part. Those territories went permanently to the USSR, at least until it's collapse. Jews living in those territories were included in the 59 census, not the 39 census.

[TlsMS93]

The Baltic countries, Bessarabia and Soviet-occupied Poland would not have accounted for 1 million Jews. Some even go so far as to say that of the 3 million Polish Jews, not one escaped Hitler's grasp in 1939. While some say that 500,000 Polish Jews managed to flee into the Russian interior as far as Siberia, if that is true, what prevented Ukrainian and Russian Jews from doing the same?

Let's say that 1 million became Soviet citizens in 1940 when these occupations ended, then they would have 4 million in Barbarossa, 1.4 million died according to pro-Holocaust historians, and there would be 2.6 million Jews left in 1945.

So from 1945-59, instead of growing, their population fell? What explains this? Fear of declaring themselves Jewish in the census? Why wouldn't they have been afraid of that in 1939?

[Nessie]

The Baltic countries, Bessarabia and Soviet-occupied Poland would not have accounted for 1 million Jews.

Populations according to the Wannsee Minutes, of the approximate areas you mention;

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... nutes.html

Eastern territories 420,000
Estonia - free of Jews -
Latvia 3,500
Lithuania 34,000
Rumania including Bessarabia 342,000

[TlsMS93]

Populations according to the Wannsee Minutes, of the approximate areas you mention;

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... nutes.html

Eastern territories 420,000
Estonia - free of Jews -
Latvia 3,500
Lithuania 34,000
Rumania including Bessarabia 342,000

Do you really trust the Wannsee figures? So there were 800,000 Jews in France and less than 10% were deported?

I got the figures from Wikipedia. The question is how many Soviet citizens did the Jews become by 1939. 1 million? The exterminationists say that Hitler had 3 million Polish Jews at his mercy already in 1939. Others mention 500,000 Jews evacuated to the Russian interior.

Estonia 4,600
Latvia 95,000
Lithuania 155,000
Bessarabia and Bukovina 300,000