ELI5

[Stubble]

Again you are assuming obliteration of the bodies. Again I point to pictures of this measure that are extant, such as the one Archie has linked, and note the lack of obliteration indicating this is a hygienic measure and not for obliteration of remains. I also point to the contents of the burial pits and their composition, containing 'soft tissues', 'hands', 'heads of hair' etc as proof that this effort was not taken to an extreme but rather executed in a prescribed method represented by other examples from the same party in the same period.

The descriptions of Belzec grave site 100% evidence bodies were obliterated. Not perfectly, but yeah, bone fragments, skulls were destroyed. He doesn't report finding skulls among the ashes. Specifically the repeated descriptor 'ash'. This is what the crematory layers looked like.

The 45 study does, and it specifically cites skulls as evidence of gassing because there is no bullet hole in them.

So far as kola not finding a skull, given his method, I find that completely unsurprising as I don't know how a skull would fit in his sample gathering apparatus.

[bombsaway]

Again you are assuming obliteration of the bodies. Again I point to pictures of this measure that are extant, such as the one Archie has linked, and note the lack of obliteration indicating this is a hygienic measure and not for obliteration of remains. I also point to the contents of the burial pits and their composition, containing 'soft tissues', 'hands', 'heads of hair' etc as proof that this effort was not taken to an extreme but rather executed in a prescribed method represented by other examples from the same party in the same period.

The descriptions of Belzec grave site 100% evidence bodies were obliterated. Not perfectly, but yeah, bone fragments, skulls were destroyed. He doesn't report finding skulls among the ashes. Specifically the repeated descriptor 'ash'. This is what the crematory layers looked like.

The 45 study does, and it specifically cites skulls as evidence of gassing because there is no bullet hole in them.

So far as kola not finding a skull, given his method, I find that completely unsurprising as I don't know how a skull would fit in his sample gathering apparatus.

That specifically says, about the skulls and not carbonized body parts, is that they are evidence not all corpses were extracted and burnt

The human body parts not carbonized and the huge amount of hair proves that some corpses were buried after the time when the corpse burning in the extermination camp was stopped, eventually they may also be corpses that were not extracted from the mass grave during cremation. Due to the fact that the skull bones show no traces of shots, it must be assumed that these people did not die from shooting.

I stand by use of the descriptor 'ashes'. Nobody is going to repeatedly call partially burnt (but not destroyed) bodies ashes.

[TlsMS93]

The 45 study does, and it specifically cites skulls as evidence of gassing because there is no bullet hole in them.

So far as kola not finding a skull, given his method, I find that completely unsurprising as I don't know how a skull would fit in his sample gathering apparatus.

This is very funny. Anyone who sees it would think that Kola searched the entire area, from top to bottom

Just because he didn't find a bullet in a skull, was it gassing?

[Stubble]

The descriptions of Belzec grave site 100% evidence bodies were obliterated. Not perfectly, but yeah, bone fragments, skulls were destroyed. He doesn't report finding skulls among the ashes. Specifically the repeated descriptor 'ash'. This is what the crematory layers looked like.

The 45 study does, and it specifically cites skulls as evidence of gassing because there is no bullet hole in them.

So far as kola not finding a skull, given his method, I find that completely unsurprising as I don't know how a skull would fit in his sample gathering apparatus.

That specifically says, about the skulls and not carbonized body parts, is that they are evidence not all corpses were extracted and burnt

The human body parts not carbonized and the huge amount of hair proves that some corpses were buried after the time when the corpse burning in the extermination camp was stopped, eventually they may also be corpses that were not extracted from the mass grave during cremation. Due to the fact that the skull bones show no traces of shots, it must be assumed that these people did not die from shooting.

Ok, well, that's arguable. I point to the inconsistency of it. Massive coverup, wholly disregarding the part where you, you know, cover things up.

I also point to other examples of these style cremations and I point to the incompleteness of the obliteration of the bodies. I further point to evidence of 'soft tissues' and 'hands' etc outside of this 'layer' that you suppose to be undisturbed bodies from which skulls were collected.

[Archie]

I'm not saying wood wasn't used because it's convenient for me, but because of the described high proportion of cremains to wood in the graves. The opposite should be true if wood was the primary combustant and dumped in the graves with the cremains. But it's not. Dresden is a counterexample to your theory that you can't do it with liquid fuel. Everything I've read about Dresden mentions liquid fuel as the main fuel source,

here's David Irving

A gigantic grill over
twenty-feet long was being erected. Under the steel girders and bars
were poked bundles of wood and straw. On top of the grill were
heaped the corpses, four or five hundred at a time, with more straw
between each layer. The soldiers trampled up and down on top of this
rotting heap, straightening the victims, trying to make room for
more, and carefully building the stack. Many of the dead children sand-
wiched into these terrible pyres were still wearing the colourful carnival
clothes that they had donned so eagerly two weeks before.

Finally gallons of gasoline, sorely needed though it was throughout
the whole Reich, were poured over the stacks of victims.

Well, it says they used bundles of straw and wood. And they were clothed. This procedure as described does not sound to me like it would result in complete cremation (depending on the particulars) and the photo you shared does not suggest this either. So I need to see some evidence of how successful this procedure was before I would take this line of argument of yours seriously. And I again wonder aloud if you have ever made a fire before.

[bombsaway]

I'm not saying wood wasn't used because it's convenient for me, but because of the described high proportion of cremains to wood in the graves. The opposite should be true if wood was the primary combustant and dumped in the graves with the cremains. But it's not. Dresden is a counterexample to your theory that you can't do it with liquid fuel. Everything I've read about Dresden mentions liquid fuel as the main fuel source,

here's David Irving

A gigantic grill over
twenty-feet long was being erected. Under the steel girders and bars
were poked bundles of wood and straw. On top of the grill were
heaped the corpses, four or five hundred at a time, with more straw
between each layer. The soldiers trampled up and down on top of this
rotting heap, straightening the victims, trying to make room for
more, and carefully building the stack. Many of the dead children sand-
wiched into these terrible pyres were still wearing the colourful carnival
clothes that they had donned so eagerly two weeks before.

Finally gallons of gasoline, sorely needed though it was throughout
the whole Reich, were poured over the stacks of victims.

Well, it says they used bundles of straw and wood. And they were clothed. This procedure as described does not sound to me like it would result in complete cremation (depending on the particulars) and the photo you shared does not suggest this either. So I need to see some evidence of how successful this procedure was before I would take this line of argument of yours seriously. And I again wonder aloud if you have ever made a fire before.

This notion of complete cremation is not a necessity in the orthodox narrative, I think what was found actually confirms that it was partial. The testimonies speak of brushwood and liquid fuel being used, just like in Irving's account. The main difference seems to be at the Reinhardt camps cremation was done in pits which would probably facilitate burning, and the lack of clothes. I don't think these differences are significant enough for me to say what happened at Dresden was impossible at Belzec and other places.

[Stubble]

I'm not saying wood wasn't used because it's convenient for me, but because of the described high proportion of cremains to wood in the graves. The opposite should be true if wood was the primary combustant and dumped in the graves with the cremains. But it's not. Dresden is a counterexample to your theory that you can't do it with liquid fuel. Everything I've read about Dresden mentions liquid fuel as the main fuel source,

here's David Irving

Well, it says they used bundles of straw and wood. And they were clothed. This procedure as described does not sound to me like it would result in complete cremation (depending on the particulars) and the photo you shared does not suggest this either. So I need to see some evidence of how successful this procedure was before I would take this line of argument of yours seriously. And I again wonder aloud if you have ever made a fire before.

This notion of complete cremation is not a necessity in the orthodox narrative, I think what was found actually confirms that it was partial. The testimonies speak of brushwood and liquid fuel being used, just like in Irving's account. The main difference seems to be at the Reinhardt camps cremation was done in pits which would probably facilitate burning, and the lack of clothes. I don't think these differences are significant enough for me to say what happened at Dresden was impossible at Belzec and other places.

I ask for a source reference for 'pits' and not 'grills constructed from railway rails on blocks at mid calf or knee level'. It is my understanding that the pyres at belzec were the same in construction as the pyres at treblinka II.

I also remark that the 'liquid fuel' will likely turn out to be 'two Jerry tins' of diesel, simply to start the solid fuel.

[TlsMS93]

Pits? But what about the pyres made of train tracks?

Wow, not even the exterminationists have a clear vision of what happened, since there are pyres, pits, liquid fuel, wood, fake showers, gas cylinders, capsules.

[bombsaway]

Well, it says they used bundles of straw and wood. And they were clothed. This procedure as described does not sound to me like it would result in complete cremation (depending on the particulars) and the photo you shared does not suggest this either. So I need to see some evidence of how successful this procedure was before I would take this line of argument of yours seriously. And I again wonder aloud if you have ever made a fire before.

This notion of complete cremation is not a necessity in the orthodox narrative, I think what was found actually confirms that it was partial. The testimonies speak of brushwood and liquid fuel being used, just like in Irving's account. The main difference seems to be at the Reinhardt camps cremation was done in pits which would probably facilitate burning, and the lack of clothes. I don't think these differences are significant enough for me to say what happened at Dresden was impossible at Belzec and other places.

I ask for a source reference for 'pits' and not 'grills constructed from railway rails on blocks at mid calf or knee level'. It is my understanding that the pyres at belzec were the same in construction as the pyres at treblinka II.

I also remark that the 'liquid fuel' will likely turn out to be 'two Jerry tins' of diesel, simply to start the solid fuel.

This is from Treblinka

Deposition of former Ukrainian guard Pavel Vladimirovich Leleko on 20.02.1945, English translation online under [link] and [link]. Leleko’s description of the facility reads as follows: "An incinerator from the burning of bodies was situated about 10 meters beyond the large gas chamber building. It had the shape of a cement pit about one meter deep and 20 meters long. A series of furnaces covered on the top with four rows of rails extended along the entire length of one of the walls of the pit. The bodies were laid on the rails, caught fire from the flames burning in the furnaces and burned. About 1000 bodies were burned simultaneously. The burning process lasted up to five hours."

[Stubble]

This notion of complete cremation is not a necessity in the orthodox narrative, I think what was found actually confirms that it was partial. The testimonies speak of brushwood and liquid fuel being used, just like in Irving's account. The main difference seems to be at the Reinhardt camps cremation was done in pits which would probably facilitate burning, and the lack of clothes. I don't think these differences are significant enough for me to say what happened at Dresden was impossible at Belzec and other places.

I ask for a source reference for 'pits' and not 'grills constructed from railway rails on blocks at mid calf or knee level'. It is my understanding that the pyres at belzec were the same in construction as the pyres at treblinka II.

I also remark that the 'liquid fuel' will likely turn out to be 'two Jerry tins' of diesel, simply to start the solid fuel.

This is from Treblinka

Deposition of former Ukrainian guard Pavel Vladimirovich Leleko on 20.02.1945, English translation online under [link] and [link]. Leleko’s description of the facility reads as follows: "An incinerator from the burning of bodies was situated about 10 meters beyond the large gas chamber building. It had the shape of a cement pit about one meter deep and 20 meters long. A series of furnaces covered on the top with four rows of rails extended along the entire length of one of the walls of the pit. The bodies were laid on the rails, caught fire from the flames burning in the furnaces and burned. About 1000 bodies were burned simultaneously. The burning process lasted up to five hours."

Single testimony about a concrete pit not evidenced to have existed at the site, without corroborating testimony and direct physical evidence leaves me doubting the accuracy of the testimony.

I point to the 'official' narrative presented in 1 year in treblinka.

I won't bother derailment of the thread over this, but, rest assured, I have many more reasons to be doubtful of this assertion.

As there is a consistency in the method of pyre construction evidenced by the various other pyres, I am at this point convinced there is an sop around their construction and that it was followed.

I see no reason to believe there was a deviation from the prescribed method of construction and execution of this method of body disposal.

Of course, that's my opinion, however, I don't think it is unreasonable or unrealistic in any way.

[bombsaway]

As there is a consistency in the method of pyre construction evidenced by the various other pyres, I am at this point convinced there is an sop around their construction and that it was followed.

There actually is something of an SOP, though it wasn't codified

You can read here about the activities of Paul Blobel

https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... man12.html

Who conducted experiments on best corpse destruction practices. This is evidenced, and the connection between Blobel and Auschwitz and the Reinhardt camps is also evidenced. At Auschwitz cremation was also conducted using burning pits. Blobel initiated the methods and then they were employed at the other camps, and also in the mobile units that destroyed graves in USSR.

It starts with Chelmno. If you accept that systematic killing program was initiated in occupied USSR, but still have questions about the gassing, I would say begin with Chelmno, or if you're more interested. But probably it's best to go through this stuff sequentially. Chelmno was the first proper Polish extermination camp, according to orthodox sources.

[Stubble]

As there is a consistency in the method of pyre construction evidenced by the various other pyres, I am at this point convinced there is an sop around their construction and that it was followed.

There actually is something of an SOP, though it wasn't fully codified

You can read here about the activities of Paul Blobel

https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... man12.html

Who conducted experiments on best corpse destruction practices. This is evidenced, and the connection between Blobel and Auschwitz and the Reinhardt camps is also evidenced. At Auschwitz cremation was also conducted using burning pits. Blobel initiated the methods and then they were employed at the other camps, and also in the mobile units that destroyed graves in USSR.

It starts with Chelmno. If you accept that systematic killing program was initiated in occupied USSR, but still have questions about the gassing, I would say begin with Chelmno, or if you're more interested. But probably it's best to go through this stuff sequentially. Chelmno was the first proper Polish extermination camp, according to orthodox sources.

Thanks bombs, I appreciate you pointing to places to search for truth.

To your second paragraph, I have extreme doubts regarding the idea of systematic killing. I do accept high attrition rates due to pestilence and war time conditions and I accept decimations and reprisals as having occurred. This is a drift from topic, but, I wanted to make the clarification.

Overall, I feel this thread has been extremely constructive for my understanding of the reality of the events at the operation Reinhardt camps, specifically regarding the cremations. I had initially completely disregarded the idea that they could have occurred because of the description and reasoning that came from the orthodox narrative. After a review of the practice, as it occurred in other places, I have come to understand that they indeed occurred, but that they did not result in the complete cremation of the bodies and that this is supported by studies.

One step at a time I suppose.

[bombsaway]

As there is a consistency in the method of pyre construction evidenced by the various other pyres, I am at this point convinced there is an sop around their construction and that it was followed.

There actually is something of an SOP, though it wasn't fully codified

You can read here about the activities of Paul Blobel

https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... man12.html

Who conducted experiments on best corpse destruction practices. This is evidenced, and the connection between Blobel and Auschwitz and the Reinhardt camps is also evidenced. At Auschwitz cremation was also conducted using burning pits. Blobel initiated the methods and then they were employed at the other camps, and also in the mobile units that destroyed graves in USSR.

It starts with Chelmno. If you accept that systematic killing program was initiated in occupied USSR, but still have questions about the gassing, I would say begin with Chelmno, or if you're more interested. But probably it's best to go through this stuff sequentially. Chelmno was the first proper Polish extermination camp, according to orthodox sources.

Thanks bombs, I appreciate you pointing to places to search for truth.

To your second paragraph, I have extreme doubts regarding the idea of systematic killing. I do accept high attrition rates due to pestilence and war time conditions and I accept decimations and reprisals as having occurred. This is a drift from topic, but, I wanted to make the clarification.

Overall, I feel this thread has been extremely constructive for my understanding of the reality of the events at the operation Reinhardt camps, specifically regarding the cremations. I had initially completely disregarded the idea that they could have occurred because of the description and reasoning that came from the orthodox narrative. After a review of the practice, as it occurred in other places, I have come to understand that they indeed occurred, but that they did not result in the complete cremation of the bodies and that this is supported by studies.

One step at a time I suppose.

I realize the link doesn't work

https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... man12.html

If you have extreme doubts about killing program in Occupied USSR probably we should start there. Then we can move to Chelmno, and then the Reinhardt Camps

The overall timeline went something like

1940 Himmler considers physical extermination "impossible" https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic ... 00#p570101

June 1941 The conflict with the USSR and plans of mass colonization of the territories, changes this policy, now Jewish adults are targeted. Over the next few months all Jews become targets, and populations eliminated from whole swaths of territory with some exceptions.

Late 1941 The war has placed extreme stresses on the German economy and food supply, things aren't going too well. Crises loom with food shortages in the ghettos as well disease outbreaks. Decision is made to liquidate the non-working population (see Goebbels diary entry). Killing of non-employable Jews in the Warthe commences with Chelmno, then Reinhardt kicks into gear in 1942 with Jews from the entirety of the GG being targeted.

[Stubble]

There actually is something of an SOP, though it wasn't fully codified

You can read here about the activities of Paul Blobel

https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... man12.html

Who conducted experiments on best corpse destruction practices. This is evidenced, and the connection between Blobel and Auschwitz and the Reinhardt camps is also evidenced. At Auschwitz cremation was also conducted using burning pits. Blobel initiated the methods and then they were employed at the other camps, and also in the mobile units that destroyed graves in USSR.

It starts with Chelmno. If you accept that systematic killing program was initiated in occupied USSR, but still have questions about the gassing, I would say begin with Chelmno, or if you're more interested. But probably it's best to go through this stuff sequentially. Chelmno was the first proper Polish extermination camp, according to orthodox sources.

Thanks bombs, I appreciate you pointing to places to search for truth.

To your second paragraph, I have extreme doubts regarding the idea of systematic killing. I do accept high attrition rates due to pestilence and war time conditions and I accept decimations and reprisals as having occurred. This is a drift from topic, but, I wanted to make the clarification.

Overall, I feel this thread has been extremely constructive for my understanding of the reality of the events at the operation Reinhardt camps, specifically regarding the cremations. I had initially completely disregarded the idea that they could have occurred because of the description and reasoning that came from the orthodox narrative. After a review of the practice, as it occurred in other places, I have come to understand that they indeed occurred, but that they did not result in the complete cremation of the bodies and that this is supported by studies.

One step at a time I suppose.

I realize the link doesn't work

https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... man12.html

If you have extreme doubts about killing program in Occupied USSR probably we should start there. Then we can move to Chelmno, and then the Reinhardt Camps

The overall timeline went something like

1940 Himmler considers physical extermination "impossible" https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic ... 00#p570101

June 1941 The conflict with the USSR and plans of mass colonization of the territories, changes this policy, now Jewish adults are targeted. Over the next few months all Jews become targets, and populations eliminated from whole swaths of territory with some exceptions.

Late 1941 The war has placed extreme stresses on the German economy and food supply, things aren't going too well. Crises loom with food shortages in the ghettos as well disease outbreaks. Decision is made to liquidate the non-working population (see Goebbels diary entry). Killing of non-employable Jews in the Warthe commences with Chelmno, then Reinhardt kicks into gear in 1942 with Jews from the entirety of the GG being targeted.

Because of my trust level and framework, I'm going to have to look at the facts as they are free of narrative.

I appreciate the timeline however and its presentation with events in order. I will find that useful.

A clarification, when I said 'places to look for truth' I didn't mean specifically that link, but rather, the outline of contents and the pointing at chelmno.

I'll chew on this for a while.

Thanks again

[Stubble]

As there is a consistency in the method of pyre construction evidenced by the various other pyres, I am at this point convinced there is an sop around their construction and that it was followed.

There actually is something of an SOP, though it wasn't codified

You can read here about the activities of Paul Blobel

https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... man12.html

Who conducted experiments on best corpse destruction practices. This is evidenced, and the connection between Blobel and Auschwitz and the Reinhardt camps is also evidenced. At Auschwitz cremation was also conducted using burning pits. Blobel initiated the methods and then they were employed at the other camps, and also in the mobile units that destroyed graves in USSR.

It starts with Chelmno. If you accept that systematic killing program was initiated in occupied USSR, but still have questions about the gassing, I would say begin with Chelmno, or if you're more interested. But probably it's best to go through this stuff sequentially. Chelmno was the first proper Polish extermination camp, according to orthodox sources.

After reading the link, a brief observation.

Do you remember me mentioning that obliteration of cremains is done with a ball mill, and that the incompleteness of the cremations at belzec would have been problematic for this process, because the bearings would have become 'mired in meat' rendering the process ineffective?

Note that the article mentions precisely a 'ball mill' expressly for the purpose of the obliteration of cremains.

Picking the truth from the propaganda in that article won't be a simple task

Note the cooperation and even apparently the budget coming from the judenrat. Hell, they provided the first bone destruction equipment apparently in the form of a disk grinder. Although, they got jewed on the deal because the nazis stiffed them on the coupons because the judenrat didn't provide the promised a/c motor.


So far as actually going through the documents one by one, like I had to do with some of the Auschwitz criminal traces from the HCBlog it is just so fucking tiresome. All I want is truth and fidelity, but no, always, and I stress this, always I get some janky contrived narrative driven misrepresentation of reality. I never just get the facts such as they were, in a non bias way.

I'm not going to say that only exterminationists refuse to deal in facts, with fidelity, free of narrative either. I've found some things here and there on the other side of the fence I personally consider underhanded in presentation.

I'm ranting a bit and maybe I just have a chip on my shoulder. I detest dealing with fucking pravda though.