Kula vs Tauber on "Kula columns"

[Stubble]

To say that they are non-viable from the contradictions and gaps, you would have to discount every other explanation for why the problems exist - eg

It's possible the methods changed, it's possible the testimonies were confused to some degree leading to improper interpretations, it's possible mechanisms were left out.

Strawman.

Its not non-viable due to a gap in the record. Its non-viable due the positive descriptions that are present in the record. I’m repeating myself now and this is wasting my time but i dont mind for any newcomers:

To give just one example, its non-viable because, it has not been demonstrated or explained how to outpace a US prison execution using less gas, for more victims, in a sub-optimal configuration.

All constants and variables heavily suggest the opposite.

The LC-50 for HCN for half an hour is 300ppm IIRC. Hence half of the condemned, or there about, would be dead in half an hour at the claimed concentration.

I don't think the people claiming 300ppm understand LC-50...

Even with concentrations used in American Homicidal Gas Chambers (execution gas chambers), which are around the same as the fumigation gas chambers, it takes 10 minutes to kill with certainly.



This is quickly and superficially discussed by Herr Rudolf in 'The Chemistry of Auschwitz' video, and more deeply in the Handbook by the same name;

https://holocausthandbooks.com/book/the ... auschwitz/

[bombsaway]

To say that they are non-viable from the contradictions and gaps, you would have to discount every other explanation for why the problems exist - eg

It's possible the methods changed, it's possible the testimonies were confused to some degree leading to improper interpretations, it's possible mechanisms were left out.

Strawman.

Its not non-viable due to a gap in the record. Its non-viable due the positive descriptions that are present in the record. I’m repeating myself now and this is wasting my time but i dont mind for any newcomers:

To give just one example, its non-viable because, it has not been demonstrated or explained how to outpace a US prison execution using less gas, for more victims, in a sub-optimal configuration.

All constants and variables heavily suggest the opposite.

There's nothing in the descriptions of the columns alone that make it non-viable, this was the point I was arguing, and specifically answering your question about why Kula didn't use a certain terminology.

[HansHill]

To say that they are non-viable from the contradictions and gaps, you would have to discount every other explanation for why the problems exist - eg

Strawman.

Its not non-viable due to a gap in the record. Its non-viable due the positive descriptions that are present in the record. I’m repeating myself now and this is wasting my time but i dont mind for any newcomers:

To give just one example, its non-viable because, it has not been demonstrated or explained how to outpace a US prison execution using less gas, for more victims, in a sub-optimal configuration.

All constants and variables heavily suggest the opposite.

There's nothing in the descriptions of the columns alone that make it non-viable, this was the point I was arguing, and specifically answering your question about why Kula didn't use a certain terminology.

Start here:

I can't speak to the clumping issue because I this would depend on particular formation of the pellets and we don't have them. The slots could be very large, almost the width of the inner column.

“Would depend on the particular formation of the pellets” - correct and as described by the eyewitnesses as finely compacted within the inner mesh behind the flyscreen

“The slots could be very large, almost the width of the inner column.” - as per the eyewitnesses and the manufacturer of the device there were no slots, however the dimensions of the shafts are indeed known.

Both of these constants make the descriptions as given non-viable, and draw “no comment” in the former case, and deus ex machina in the latter case.

This is why the descriptions as given are non-viable.

[bombsaway]

" as per the eyewitnesses and the manufacturer of the device there were no slots,"

where did they say there were no slots?

" finely compacted within the inner mesh behind the flyscreen"

where did they say these things. quote for me.

[HansHill]

I’m not playing pin the tail on the donkey with these two most recent challenges.

This is a 15 page thread full of column descriptions with links to the primary and secondary sources, which I invite the interested reader to review.

[Stubble]

I’m not playing pin the tail on the donkey with these two most recent challenges.

This is a 15 page thread full of column descriptions with links to the primary and secondary sources, which I invite the interested reader to review.

You don't by chance have the LC-50 for HCN handy, do you? I think I am recalling the 30 minutes at 300ppm, but, I can't readily find my handy, dandy lethality chart for HCN.

Nevermind, I looked at the section in The Chemistry of Auschwitz titled 'Lethal Concentrations' and started a new thread.

viewtopic.php?t=861

My 'handy dandy' chart is probably wrong anyhow, regardless of it i recall it correctly or not.

[bombsaway]

I’m not playing pin the tail on the donkey with these two most recent challenges.

This is a 15 page thread full of column descriptions with links to the primary and secondary sources, which I invite the interested reader to review.

I call bullshit. I searched the thread for "finely" "compacted" "flyscreen" and there were no hits beyond your quote.

I greatly doubt witnesses said there were no slots, call bullshit on that. Rather witnesses don't mention so slots, and you extrapolate from that.

[HansHill]

Stop wasting my time BA.

These are the columns as described.
The columns as described are non-viable
“B-b-but what if we change the description, then its viable?!”

Exactly.

Ffs.

[bombsaway]

you:

“Would depend on the particular formation of the pellets” - correct and as described by the eyewitnesses as finely compacted within the inner mesh behind the flyscreen

there's nothing here about finely compacted granules or anything like that, and those aren't direct witness statements.

you have failed.

[HansHill]

I think the mods should do something about this dishonest and despicable series of challenges and counter challenges from this user.

Despicable.

[Wetzelrad]

I can't speak to the clumping issue

Clearly not, and you should have stopped there.

because I [think?] this would depend on particular formation of the pellets and we don't have them.

They're Erco (gypsum) pellets permeated with HCN. They've been analyzed. They aren't impossible to imagine or to recreate.

Since the size of the pellets is known (5-10 mm), and the size of the device they are supposed to go into is known (a 15 mm gap according to Kula's trial testimony), it is quite possible to imagine and to test how easily pellets (even dry ones) could get clogged in this mechanism.

Evaporation is a second question. Since witnesses claimed gassings took mere minutes, the HCN must have evaporated very quickly. Would that rapid evaporation lower the temperature of the pellets, causing humidity to condense on them? Probably. This is similar to dry ice powder or pellets, which clog up immediately when poured into a funnel. Humidity in both cases. A better analogue would be to recreate Zyklon pellets with some neutral gas that evaporates at a similar rate.

No Holocaust authority will conduct any test of this kind because it would vindicate gassing deniers. This is why they haven't tested it in the past (while Zyklon was available) and have no plans to test it in the future.

You don't by chance have the LC-50 for HCN handy, do you? I think I am recalling the 30 minutes at 300ppm, but, I can't readily find my handy, dandy lethality chart for HCN.

Table 11, which is B.P. McNamara's table, gives it as 688 mg/m^3 or 625 ppm. Rudolf argues it would be higher than that in practice.

[Stubble]

You don't by chance have the LC-50 for HCN handy, do you? I think I am recalling the 30 minutes at 300ppm, but, I can't readily find my handy, dandy lethality chart for HCN.

Table 11, which is B.P. McNamara's table, gives it as 688 mg/m^3 or 625 ppm. Rudolf argues it would be higher than that in practice.

Thanks Boss, found that. I've got another chart kicking around some place that is different, but no less flawed. Seems HCN lethality is, under studied. That formula Germar came up with is probably the best approach.