The "Special Treatment" of TB Poles

[fireofice]

In 1942, the Germans had a problem on their hands with Polish people afflicted with TB (tuberculosis) and a subset of them that were severely ill and incurable. There are a series of letters between different German officials on how to deal with the problem which can be read here:

https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... erman.html

In one of these letters by Kurt Blome to Arthur Greiser, this is said:

Therefore, something basic must be done soon. One must decide the most efficient way in which this can be done. There are three ways to be taken into consideration:

1. Special treatment (Soncerbehandlung) of the seriously ill persons.

2. Most rigorous isolation of the seriously ill persons.

3. Creation of a reservation for all TB patients.

Now to me, it clearly looks like "special treatment" means killing here, since it is presenting "special treatment" along with other options like isolating them. However, in Himmler's final letter, he decides not to opt for the special treatment option in regards to the severely ill TB Poles.

This reference to "special treatment" to mean killing is then used to interpret an earlier letter from Arthur Greiser to Heinrich Himmler which says:

The special treatment of about 100,000 Jews in the territory of my district (Gau), approved by you in agreement with the Chief of the Reich-Main-Security Office, SS Obergruppenfuehrer Heydrich, can be completed within the next 2-3 months.

This is then used to argue that since "special treatment" was used to mean killing in another letter, that must then mean that this letter is referring to the killing of 100,000 Jews.

However, there is a problem with this line of argument. Firstly, revisionists have already conceded that "special treatment" can include bad things up to and including killing. So this letter with the TB Poles really adds nothing new here. In the ways in which "special treatment" can have both positive and negative meanings, see this:

https://holocaustencyclopedia.com/conce ... tment/847/

The page also says that the term "special treatment" was used for Jews because they were to be treated differently than other inmates. So all in all, these series of letters are a big nothing burger and tell us nothing one way or the other about the accuracy of the orthodox narrative.

[bombsaway]

Now to me, it clearly looks like "special treatment" means killing here, since it is presenting "special treatment" along with other options like isolating them. However, in Himmler's final letter, he decides not to opt for the special treatment option in regards to the severely ill TB Poles.

There's no need for any inference even to draw that connection, in the correspondence it is explicitly killing (euthanasia)

I could imagine, that the Fuehrer, having sometime ago stopped the program in tho insane asylums, might at this moment consider a "special treatment" of the incurably sick as unsuitable and irresponsible from a political point of view. As rewards the Euthanasia Program, it was a question of people of German nationality afflicted with hereditary diseases. Now it is a question of infected sick people of a subjugated nation.

There can be no doubt of the intended program's being the most simple and most radical solution. If absolute secrecy could be guaranteed, all scruples, regardless of what nature, could be overcome. But I consider simply maintaining secrecy impossible. Experience has taught that this assumption is true. Should these sick persons, having been brought as planned to the old Reich supposedly to be treated or healed actually never return, the relatives of these sick persons, in spite of the greatest secrecy, would some day notice "that something was not quite right." One must take into consideration that there are many Polish workers in the old Reich who will inquire as to the where abouts of their relatives; that there are a certain number of Germans related to or allied by marriage with Poles who could in this way learn of the transports of the sick. Very soon more definite news of this program would leak out, which would be taken up by enemy propaganda. The Euthanasia Program taught in which manner this was done and which methods were used. This new program could be better used politically as it concerns persons of a subjugated nation. The church will not remain silent either. Nor will people stop at discussing this program. Certain interested circles will spread the rumor among the people that similar methods are also to be used in the future on German consumptives. Yes, that one can count on more or less all incurably ill being done away with in the future. In connection with this, I recall the recurring recent foreign broadcasts in connection with the appointment of Prof. Brandt as Commissioner General, spreading the news that he was ordered to attend as little as possible to the healing of the seriously sick, instead all the more to the healing of the less sick. And there are more than enough people who listen to illegal broadcasts.

[bombsaway]

This correspondence is fascinating, even without touching on the Jewish issue. It gives you some insight into how Nazi leadership functioned ... above I quoted from a letter by Blome, a physician who voiced some reasonable concerns about the mass killing of Tubercular Poles, and pleaded to Greiser that Hitler understand his arguments.

Therefore, I think it necessary to explain all these points of view to the Führer before undertaking the program as, in my opinion, he is the only one able to view the entire complex and to come to a decision.

Very reasonable again, an action like this was unprecedented. Certainly the killing of tens of thousands in this new way should at least merit some deliberation. But Greiser throws shade at Blome and doesn't think Hitler should be asked or even provided with information, they should just go ahead with it, post haste!

The Reich Governor in the Reich Gau Wartheland Posen, 21 November 1942
File no.: P 802/42

Secret State Affair

To the Reichsführer SS Heinrich Himmler, Berlin SW 11. Prinz Albrecht Street 8

Reichsfuehrer!

In your letter of 27 June 1942, Journal Number 1247/42 Top Secret, you gave me permission to give special treatment to Poles who are proved to be infected with open and therefore incurable pulmonary tuberculosis. This special treatment of the seriously sick can of course only take place after the whole population in the territory of my Gau has been examined to find out who is curable and who is incurable. Tho examinations are to start soon in accordance with the method of Prof. Dr. Hohlfelder, who will be assigned to this Gau in a few weeks with his X-ray battalion. The first utilization of this method is estimated to be possible in approximately half a year.

In this stage of the proceedings Prof. Dr. Blome, in his capacity as Deputy Chief of the Public Health Office of the NSDAP is raising some objections as to its execution. As he states in a letter of 18 November, these objections are expressed only now although Dr. Blome and Dr. Hohlfelder and myself have spent months of preliminary work on examination, clarification and straightening out the whole procedure.

I enclose a copy of Blome's letter of 18 November for your information and ask that you particularly read pages 3, 3a and 4 and then tell me whether you consider it necessary to inform the Führer of this phase of the procedure and perhaps ask him if such action is to be refused.

I personally don't think that we have to consult the Führer again in this matter, all the more since he told me at the last interview concerning the Jews that I should act according to my own judgment.

Would you please lot me know your opinion, Reichsfuehrer, in order to avoid unnecessary delay in starting the procedure.

Heil Hitler!

[signature]

[bombsaway]

It seems like you agree with me that the proposal in question was a "euthanasia" or killing operation, so we can move on from that.

This is then used to argue that since "special treatment" was used to mean killing in another letter, that must then mean that this letter is referring to the killing of 100,000 Jews.

The key, "incriminating" letter is the first one from Greiser

Reich Govenor of the Reichsgau Wartheland Posen, 1 May 1942

Secret State Affair

Personal

To the Reichsführer SS Heinrich Himmler, Führer-Headquarters.

Reichsführer!

The special treatment of about 100.000 Jews in the territory of my district (Gau), approved by you in agreement with the Chief of the Reich-Main-Security Office, SS Obergruppenfuehrer Heydrich, can be completed within the next 2-3 months. I ask you for permission to rescue the district immediately after the measure taken against the Jews, from a menace, which is increasing week by week, and use the existing and used to this work Sonderkommando for that purpose.
There are about 230,000 people of Polish nationality in my district, who were diagnosed to suffer from TB. The number of persons infected with open tuberculosis is estimated at about 35,000. This fact has led in an increasing frightening measure to the infection of Germans, who came to the Warthegau perfectly healthy. In particular reports are received with our increasing effect of German children in danger "infection. A considerable number of well known leading men especially of the police, have been infected lately and are not available for the war effort because of the necessary medical treatment. The ever increasing risks were also recognized and appreciated by the deputy of the Reich Leader for Public Health (Reichsgesundheitsfuehrer) Comrade Professor Dr. Blome as well as by the Leader of your X-rays battalion SS Standartenfuehrer Professor Dr. Hohlfelder.

Though in Germany proper it is not possible to take appropriate draconic steps against this public plague. I think I could take the responsibility for my suggestion to have cases of open TB exterminated among the Polish race here in Warthegau. Of course only a Pole should be handed over to such an action, who is not only suffering open tuberculosis, but whose incurability is proved and certified by public health officer.

Considering the urgency of this project I ask for your approval in principle as soon as possible. This would enable us to take the preparations with all necessary precautions now to get the action against the Poles suffering from open tuberculosis under way, while the action against the Jews is in its closing stages.

Heil Hitler!
[signature]

The parts in bold show that Greiser wanted the SK responsible for the treatment of the Jews to be used for a similar task with the Poles slated for euthanization "and use the existing and used to this work Sonderkommando for that purpose." So it goes well beyond mere mention of Special Treatment, the two actions are linked together.

The 100,000 "euthanized" Jews lines up perfectly in terms of quantity and timeline with the deportation of 100,000 unfit for work Jews from Greiser's district, their disappearance after heading in a westward direction which transport records make clear was very near to Chelmno, the Just Memo which speaks of 97,000 killed at Chelmno. This is what convergence of evidence means btw. The Just memo is powerful by itself, but is corroborated in these different ways. I would encourage you to post this on the debate forum for further discussion, you no doubt have objections to my conclusions.

[pilgrimofdark]

Are bombsaway and fireofice the same person? There are multiple threads where primarily those two interact with each other, then FOI leaves the thread to BA and others. They both last posted within a day of each other. I read their posts and my brain can't tell the difference between their writing styles.

Bizarre. Anyway.

I don't feel like starting a new TB thread and this is a tangent of the typhus delousing topic, but that got me reviewing Warsaw ghetto material.

Tuberculosis caused more deaths than typhus in the ghetto, although typhus was more feared. The only thing Jews feared more than typhus was taking a disinfection bath.

Before the war, Poland had one of the highest death rates from TB: 150 per 100,000; twice as high as in Germany. And it only went up during the war.

Much of this material comes from the books Tuberculosis and War: Lessons Learned from World War II which seems to be available online one random chapter at a time, and White Coats in the Ghetto: Jewish Medicine in Poland During the Holocaust. I'll summarize some info about Poland here.

Regular checkups were done for the Polish railway workers in the General Government. A couple train carriages were turned into mobile X-ray units, traveling throughout the GG to test for TB. It stopped at major urban centers for a few days at a time.

In the Jewish ghettos, the TB rate was higher than among the Polish or German population. It's possible that numerous deaths attributed to other causes (like exhaustion) were actually from TB. People who died from TB were to be buried in coffins to prevent the spread, but few people could afford coffins, so a different cause of death was recorded.

An organization was set up in the Warsaw ghetto to combat the TB epidemic, with plans to establish clinics and hospital wards, but little was accomplished before the deportations began.

Researchers in the Warsaw ghetto associated hunger/starvation with TB, but it was found that the acidification of the body due to hunger slowed the spread of TB in a person. Maybe hunger made it easier to contract TB but more difficult for it to spread.

In 1944, the death rate in Warsaw climbed to almost 500 per 100,000 population. Comparatively, cities in western Europe (Paris, London, Amsterdam, German cities, etc.) never went above 200 per 100,000.

A central TB laboratory was set up in the Wolski Hospital in Warsaw.

In Lodz in the Wartheland, nearly half the ghetto population had active TB in 1942. In a sample done in 1941, 16.4% of Poles in Lodz had active TB, compared to 1.5% of Germans. Dispensaries with X-ray testing units were set up.

The situation in the camps at the end of the war was catastrophic, no surprise. According to the unit history of the American 131st Evacuation Hospital (NARA RG112, but I didn't find the exact document online), people were dying of starvation, TB, and typhus, but the "TB cases were the biggest problems."

---

With both typhus and TB, the Germans were concerned about disease rates in Poland and prioritized treatment of Germans over Poles, and Poles over Jews. Even with limited resources, the Polish and Jewish medical specialists attempted to treat the ill -- despite Polish/Jewish resistance to hygienic practices, as explored by Berg.

[Archie]

Are bombsaway and fireofice the same person?

Different people. I'll vouch for fireofice. He goes all the way back to the old forum (2018 join date).

https://archive.codohforum.com/20230609 ... =2&t=14958

[Eye of Zyclone]

Are bombsaway and fireofice the same person?

Different people. I'll vouch for fireofice. He goes all the way back to the old forum (2018 join date).

https://archive.codohforum.com/20230609 ... =2&t=14958

What proves that this fireofice is the fireofice of the old forum?

Black propaganda is a common type of deception after all.

Black propaganda

Black propaganda is covert disinformation deliberately attributed to a false source—often the very group it aims to discredit—in order to undermine that group's credibility.[1][2] Black propaganda contrasts with gray propaganda, which does not identify its source, as well as white propaganda, which does not disguise its origins at all. It is typically used to vilify or embarrass the enemy through misrepresentation.[3]

The major characteristic of black propaganda is that the audience are not aware that someone is influencing them, and do not feel that they are being pushed in a certain direction.[4] Black propaganda purports to emanate from a source other than the true source. This type of propaganda is associated with covert psychological operations.[5] Sometimes the source is concealed or credited to a false authority and spreads lies, fabrications, and deceptions. Black propaganda is the "big lie", including all types of creative deceit.[6]

Governments can conduct black propaganda for various reasons. By disguising their direct involvement, a government may be more likely to succeed in convincing an otherwise unbelieving target audience.

World War II

In the United Kingdom, the Political Warfare Executive operated a number of black propaganda radio stations. Gustav Siegfried Eins (GS1) was one of the first such stations—purporting to be a clandestine German station. The speaker, "Der Chef", purported to be a Nazi extremist, accusing Adolf Hitler and his henchmen of going soft. The station focused on alleged corruption and sexual improprieties of Nazi Party members.

Another example was the British radio station Soldatensender Calais, which purported to be a radio station for the Wehrmacht. Under the direction of Sefton Delmer, a British journalist who spoke perfect Berliner German, Soldatensender Calais and its associated shortwave station, Deutscher Kurzwellensender Atlantik, broadcast music, up-to-date sports scores, speeches of Adolf Hitler for "cover" and subtle propaganda.

Radio Deutschland was another radio station employed by the British during the war aimed and designed to undermine German morale and create tensions that would ultimately disrupt the German war effort. The station was broadcast on a frequency close on the radio dial to an actual German station. During the war most Germans actually believed that this station was in fact a German radio station.

Another possible example was a rumour that there had been a German attempt to land on British shores at Shingle Street, but it had been repelled with high German casualties. Author James Hayward has proposed that the rumours, which were widely reported in the American press, were a successfully engineered example of black propaganda with an aim of ensuring American co-operation and securing lend lease resources by showing that the United Kingdom was capable of successfully resisting the might of the German Army.[12]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_propaganda

[iceman]

Fireofice here (I had problems with my old account and created a new one). I can confirm I am not bombsaway. To the extent I'm willing to play devil's advocate for the other side, I am not willing to create another account to argue with myself with. I would just present the other side in my posts and argue against that. BA was already driving me crazy with his dumb arguments. I can't imagine how much more crazy I would be to intentionally inflict that on myself!

And yes, that is me from the old forum as well.

[Eye of Zyclone]

Fireofice here (I had problems with my old account and created a new one). I can confirm I am not bombsaway. To the extent I'm willing to play devil's advocate for the other side, I am not willing to create another account to argue with myself with. I would just present the other side in my posts and argue against that. BA was already driving me crazy with his dumb arguments. I can't imagine how much more crazy I would be to intentionally inflict that on myself!

And yes, that is me from the old forum as well.

[iceman]

Pretty sure the moderators have information on the accounts that can be used to tell if someone is using the same accounts. If you believe the moderator is in on a conspiracy with me, that's your business.

[Eye of Zyclone]

Pretty sure the moderators have information on the accounts that can be used to tell if someone is using the same accounts. If you believe the moderator is in on a conspiracy with me, that's your business.

Since a large part of the old forum was lost, it's far from being certain (I mean, the allegation that the "new" fireofice is the "old" fireofice).

But I'll wait for more info from them before making up my mind about this.

[Archie]

(I mean, the allegation that the "new" fireofice is the "old" fireofice)

Generally the less said the better on these matters. Both for security and user privacy.

But I will say that I don't think impersonation is very common. It's a bad strategy because the old poster can show up at any moment and call you out. I also don't see much reason to "infiltrate" a public forum. There's not much to infiltrate. We do get fake revisionists like the thread below, but they tend to reveal themselves very quickly.
viewtopic.php?t=756

[Stubble]

The presented documents appear to imply that special treatment of incurables was indeed 14f13 although that isn't explicitly stated.

At some point I will do another dive on The Doctors' Trial and dig into this stuff further.

Given the evidence I have been able to interpret so far, it is my opinion that incurables were indeed given an end of life via 14f13 and that this was seen as a mercy to them as well as a way to preserve stocks of valuable treatment drugs.

[fireofice]

Archie helped me with my account problems. Much thanks to him.