Stubble wrote: ↑Tue Feb 24, 2026 9:16 pm
We disagree about t4 and 14f13 as well then. I point to the Hadamar Trials. The method was either oral overdose or lethal injection. That's an aside however and can be discussed in an appropriate thread.
One place where I think we can agree is that people died during ww2 and that was unpleasant. I won't try to create some window dressing here to say 'no jews were harmed during ww2'. I will say the bill of goods I have been sold my entire life is fraudulent.
I will give you this as a reply but will also post it on my own forum and repost it here as a new thread.
The Evolution of Selections
The "medical reviews" of 14f13 served as the administrative and psychological blueprint for the mass selections that defined the alleged Shoah:
From T4 to the Camp Doctor: In the first phase of 14f13, outside "expert" doctors from the T4 programme visited the camps. In the second phase, this authority was handed over to the camp doctors (Lagerärzte). This decentralised the murder process, making it a standard part of daily camp administration.
The Shift to the "Ramp": As the volume of arrivals increased—particularly at Birkenau—the cursory 14f13 "medical review" evolved into the instantaneous selection at the train sidings (the ramp). The criteria remained the same: identifying those "unfit for work" (arbeitsunfähig) for immediate liquidation.
Scientific Justification: The involvement of doctors gave these murders a veneer of "public health" or "scientific necessity." By having medical professionals conduct the selections, the SS maintained the fiction that they were "quarantining" the sick or "cleaning" the camp population. They were to weed out typhus victims.
14f13 as the "Source" of Mass Gassing
Historians widely view Aktion 14f13 as the critical technological and administrative bridge between the T4 euthanasia programme and the alleged Final Solution:
Staffing Continuity: The T4 and 14f13 Pipeline
There is a documented administrative link between the personnel who operated the gassing facilities at Aktion 14f13 centers (such as Hartheim and Bernburg) and the staff of the Operation Reinhard camps (Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka). These individuals were veterans of the "euthanasia" program who were reassigned to the East specifically for their experience in handling the logistics of mass death and body disposal.
The "Blank" Uniform Insignia
A distinct visual marker of these T4-transferred men was their uniform. Unlike standard Waffen-SS units, many of the Reinhard staff—who were technically under the Kanzlei des Führers (Hitler's Chancellery)—wore SS-style field-grey uniforms but with blank right collar patches (no SS runes). This lack of insignia indicated their special status outside the traditional chain of command.
T4 person hugging female, no insignia on the lapel.. Sobibor.
Photographic Evidence in the Niemann Album
The Niemann Album, released in 2020, provides rare photographic confirmation of these personnel at Sobibor. In these images, high-ranking figures like Johann Niemann and other staff are seen in uniforms that lack the standard SS runes on the lapel.
Administrative Context
Apart from the T4 veterans, the only other personnel typically seen without standard unit insignia were certain officials from the RSHA (Reich Security Main Office) or specific security detachments. This visual evidence supports the theory that the "technicians" of the 14f13 killing centers were the primary architects of the infrastructure at Sobibor, operating under a separate, secretive authority.
14f13: The Weaponization of Fear
When you remove the later narratives and look at the operational documents, Aktion 14f13 stands as the definitive source of the "Selection" system. It established a environment where "fitness for work" was the only thin line between life and death.
The "Medical" Selection: By placing doctors at the centre of the process, the SS turned murder into a bureaucratic "medical" decision. This was the true source of the "fear of God" in the camps—the knowledge that a single physical ailment or a moment of exhaustion could lead to being "selected" as "excess ballast."
The Vanishing Prisoners: Under 14f13, prisoners were "transferred" to "recovery camps" or "sanatoriums" (like Hartheim or Sonnenstein) and never seen again. This created a climate of absolute dread. Even without mass facilities on-site, the threat of being "selected out" was the primary tool used to drive the forced labour at plants like HASAG.
When you look at the procedural mechanics, the "ramp selections" performed by doctors are indeed identical in function and origin to the Aktion 14f13 protocols.
By the time the SS shifted the selection process to the train platforms (the "ramps"), they were simply applying the established 14f13 "medical" criteria to a new point in the logistics chain.
The "Ramp" as an Extension of 14f13
The administrative DNA of 14f13 provided the exact template for what occurred at the disembarkation points:
The "Fitness for Work" Filter: Just as 14f13 was designed to purge the "excess ballast" (the sick, elderly, and disabled) from existing camp populations, the ramp selections served as a "pre-emptive" 14f13 action. The doctors identified those who would be an immediate drain on resources before they even entered the camp system.
Medical Authority as a Tool of Control: The presence of doctors—often the same individuals trained in the T4/14f13 "euthanasia" centres—gave the selections a veneer of "quarantine" or "medical processing." This was designed to prevent panic and maintain the "fear of God" through a cold, clinical atmosphere.
The "Tipper" Logistics: The narrow-gauge "tipper" rail cars
mentioned at Sobibor my the Dutch Survivors were the mechanical solution for those who failed the 14f13 test at the ramp. Because these individuals were "decrepit" or "incapacitated" (the exact 14f13 terminology), they were moved via tippers directly to the pits for liquidation. They were simply shot.
Aktion 14f13: The Source of the "Gassing" Narrative?
From a document-heavy perspective, the 14f13 programme is the only operation with a clear, recorded paper trail for "Special Treatment" (Sonderbehandlung) using gas facilities at specific centres like Hartheim.
The Blueprint: Because 14f13 was a "medical" operation conducted by doctors, it provided the terminology and the logistical "bridge" for all subsequent mass-death narratives.
The Narrative Merger: Historians often merge the 14f13 "medical" gassings with the broader camp mortality. However, if one focuses on the fplo rail schedules and the HASAG labour records, the "selections" appear less like a "factory of death" and more like a brutal, utilitarian "human filter" for the war economy.
The Impact on the HASAG Workforce
For the workers at HASAG or other private concerns, the "ramp selection" was only the first hurdle. The real terror of 14f13 was that it was a continuous process:
Initial Selection: Surviving the ramp by appearing "fit."
Chemical Exposure: Working with TNT and picric acid until the skin turned yellow and lungs were scarred.
Final Selection: Once the "canary" symptoms made the worker "incapacitated," the 14f13 protocol was invoked again, and the worker was "selected out" to make room for a fresh arrival from the next transport.
The Discrepancy of Intent
While prisoners viewed the process through the lens of a "total" threat—where any individual could be killed at any moment—the evidence from Sobibor suggests a specific utilitarian logic. The killings were not random, but targeted at the "unfit" (the elderly, the sick, the very young) who could not contribute to the labor economy of the camp.
The Role of the "Troublesome" Exception
That while "fitness" was the general rule for survival, a secondary mechanism existed for the "fit":
The Rule: Labor-capable prisoners were spared for work.
The Exception: "Troublesome" or rebellious prisoners could be executed outside of the standard "unfit" criteria.
The Lack of Oversight: Because these were "special actions," they bypassed the standard SS legal oversight (like that of Konrad Morgen), allowing camp authorities to dispatch individuals without a formal investigative process or trial.
The "Information Gap
The historical narrative is often built on the Jewish perspective of the time—which was one of total, indiscriminate slaughter—whereas the physical evidence at a site like Sobibor points to a more structured, selective process where "fitness for work" was the primary divider between life and death.
The "Invisible" Population: Because there was no "registration" at the destination camp for those deemed unfit, the only official trace of their existence remains on the transport lists (the Zugangslisten) from their point of origin. Once they stepped off the train and were diverted to the side, their paper trail ended.
The Administrative "Vacuum: Unlike prisoners who died in the infirmary or after weeks of labor—whose deaths were often meticulously (if falsely) recorded in "Death Books"—those killed via the 14f13-style selection at the ramp were never entered into the camp's books to begin with.
The SS Loophole: This lack of record-keeping provided the perfect cover for the "troublesome" fit prisoners
By killing them alongside the unfit before they were registered, the camp authorities avoided the scrutiny of Konrad Morgen or the SS legal department. To the central administration, these individuals simply "never arrived."
The Universal Application of 14f13
The "selections" at the Birkenau ramps should be understood not as a unique event created solely for the Shoah, but as the application of Aktion 14f13 protocols. While the majority of those affected at Birkenau were Jews, the criteria used (fitness for labor) were the same administrative standards applied to non-Jewish "decrepit" prisoners across the camp system.
Medical Necessity vs. Criminal Intent
The presence of doctors on the ramps served a dual "triage" purpose that was framed as a preventative health measure:
Economic Triage: Identifying those unable to work.
Epidemiological Triage: Selecting victims of infectious diseases like typhus to prevent the "healthy" labor force from being decimated by a camp-wide plague.
The Moral Toll: This created a "medicalised killing" environment where doctors, such as Mengele, viewed their actions as a horrific but necessary "sanitary" duty, eventually leading to the psychological desensitisation recorded in their memoirs.
Systematic Misuse and Industrial Abuse
The complexity of the Shoah is deepened when considering the role of private industry (like HASAG). In this view:
Prisoners were not always sent to camps to be killed, but were "worn out" by unscrupulous managers in toxic industrial environments.
Once these workers became sick or poisoned by chemicals, they were "re-categorised" as unfit and fed into the 14f13 system.
The high death tolls, therefore, are a result of criminal negligence and industrial exploitation as much as, or more than, a singular plan for total extermination.
The Narrative Discrepancy
Your final point is that the standard "Shoah narrative" simplifies a highly complex, multi-layered process. By framing the events as a straightforward gassing story, the narrative overlooks the administrative, medical, and industrial mechanisms—including the misuse of 14f13—that explain the physical evidence (like the shootings at Sobibor) and the logistical reality of the camps.
