Operation Reinhardt staff and the T4 connection

[Stubble]

We really should wait for the split to crack into this.

I'll wait.

In the meantime, some reading;

https://codoh.com/library/document/the- ... locaust-5/

[Callafangers]

You could probably justify the Holocaust (assuming it was true) just as you justify the proposed ethnic cleansing of 50 million people (Generalplan Ost).

I like how you slip-in nonsense hoping that it won't be challenged so that you can indoctrinate more readers.

Generalplan Ost was limited 1940 drafts for resettling ~1M from annexed Polish territories (Wartheland etc.), never an approved "50M cleansing" plan. Speculative numbers from unauthenticated memos coming later (Wetzel/Meyer 1942) were abandoned during the war (hence, hypothetical and with "no teeth" - no legal authority, funding, nor implementation feasibility), with zero implementation evidence at all beyond Poland.

Not the right thread, in any case. Stay focused.

[bombsaway]

You could probably justify the Holocaust (assuming it was true) just as you justify the proposed ethnic cleansing of 50 million people (Generalplan Ost).

I like how you slip-in nonsense hoping that it won't be challenged so that you can indoctrinate more readers.

Generalplan Ost was limited 1940 drafts for resettling ~1M from annexed Polish territories (Wartheland etc.), never an approved "50M cleansing" plan. Speculative numbers from unauthenticated memos coming later (Wetzel/Meyer 1942) were abandoned during the war (hence, hypothetical and with "no teeth" - no legal authority, funding, nor implementation feasibility), with zero implementation evidence at all beyond Poland.

Not the right thread, in any case. Stay focused.

To be clear, do you think the "unauthenticated" memos are reprehensible from a policy standpoint? Hypothetically if the government did pursue this path after the defeat of USSR?

show me the right thread because I am interested in these kinds of moral questions

[Stubble]

Bombsaway, you have made some very, very hard pivots to get away from the fact that the reason no t4 personnel were chose to preform homicidal gassing in Aktion Reinhardt that had prior experience with homicidal gassing is because there were no t4 personnel that had any experience with homicidal gassing.

[Callafangers]

To be clear, do you think the "unauthenticated" memos are reprehensible from a policy standpoint? Hypothetically if the government did pursue this path after the defeat of USSR?

show me the right thread because I am interested in these kinds of moral questions

I think much of it is understandable from Germany's perspective. Having been trampled on from all directions in the quest for independence and sovereignty -- only then to bootstrap yourself out of this hell via a leader's vision of hope and dignity -- can, once empowered, lead to a desire to reshape your surroundings in a way that ensure your survival. The Allies certainly understand this, which is why hardly any of the history books today tell of the destruction (millions dead, not to mention raped) and brainwashing campaigns ("denazification") against German citizens. Reshaping the world beyond just your national borders is about securing permanence to your vision. Jews get it, Germany did too. You only seem to have issue with one of these, not the other. I would argue that both are problematic however the German case was a defensive/reactive one, whereas Jewish initiatives have been tied to [earlier] ideological ambitions (hence, they are the aggressors).

It is a complex situation. I would hope we would all agree that mass slaughter of any civilians is abhorrent and should be avoided. But we also recognize how survival and war add complexity. The bottom-line is that any problem should be tackled at its core. And when it comes to 'reshaping the world', what is the core of the problem? (Possible hint: "tikkun olam"?)

Back to Generalplan Ost: the question is not whether some of the more extreme-minded would dare to propose such an idea, even if we assume the speculative '50 million cleansed' as true/valid -- the question is whether such a proposal had ever gained authoritative consensus and/or approval (or was even feasible to begin with), which is where evidence is non-existent.

The focus on this hypothetical policy as opposed to similar proposals of equal horror by Allies/Jews/etc. (targeting Germans) postwar is revealing.

[EDIT: Sorry Stubble, I know I keep taking the "derailing bait" from bombsaway...]

[bombsaway]

To be clear, do you think the "unauthenticated" memos are reprehensible from a policy standpoint? Hypothetically if the government did pursue this path after the defeat of USSR?

show me the right thread because I am interested in these kinds of moral questions

I think much of it is understandable from Germany's perspective. Having been trampled on from all directions in the quest for independence and sovereignty -- only then to bootstrap yourself out of this hell via a leader's vision of hope and dignity -- can, once empowered, lead to a desire to reshape your surroundings in a way that ensure your survival. The Allies certainly understand this, which is why hardly any of the history books today tell of the destruction (millions dead, not to mention raped) and brainwashing campaigns ("denazification") against German citizens. Reshaping the world beyond just your national borders is about securing permanence to your vision. Jews get it, Germany did too. You only seem to have issue with one of these, not the other. I would argue that both are problematic however the German case was a defensive/reactive one, whereas Jewish initiatives have been tied to ideological ambitions (hence, they are the aggressors).

It is a complex situation. I would hope we would all agree that mass slaughter of any civilians is abhorrent and should be avoided. But we also recognize how survival and war add complexity. The bottom-line is that any problem should be tackled at its core. And when it comes to 'reshaping the world', what is the core of the problem? (Possible hint: "tikkun olam"?)

Back to Generalplan Ost: the question is not whether some of the more extreme-minded would dare to propose such an idea, even if we assume the speculative '50 million cleansed' as true/valid -- the question is whether such a proposal had ever gained authoritative consensus and/or approval (or was even feasible to begin with), which is where evidence is non-existent.

The focus on this hypothetical policy as opposed to similar proposals of equal horror by Allies/Jews/etc. (targeting Germans) postwar is revealing.

I was asking you about your personal opinion. I think the proposals by the allies like the Morgenthau plan are abhorrent, but I should also say Generalplan Ost proposals and more concrete policy proposals like this https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=63400 (which had explicit support from the highest echelons of government Hitler Himmler) to be even more abhorrent. What is your personal opinion on these proposals, is what I'm asking to be clear, and if you don't want to answer that's fine.

[Stubble]

[EDIT: Sorry Stubble, I know I keep taking the "derailing bait" from bombsaway...]

It's no sweat Boss, I'm simply hoping this can be split and the thread, long and meandering as it is, can be kept somewhat clean, useful and functional to future readers.

The East Plan discussion may require another split...

This guy, he just pivots, and pivots, and pivots.

Anything but what is the subject...

[bombsaway]

You guys are such drama queens. Where is the pivot btw, another hallucination.

If the mods think my tangents deserve separate threads, and they tell me to do so, I'll do it, but I've gotten no such instructions or feedback. Stubble, may I remind you, you are not a mod.

[Callafangers]

I was asking you about your personal opinion. I think the proposals by the allies like the Morgenthau plan are abhorrent, but I should also say Generalplan Ost proposals and more concrete policy proposals like this https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=63400 (which had explicit support from the highest echelons of government Hitler Himmler) to be even more abhorrent. What is your personal opinion on these proposals, is what I'm asking to be clear, and if you don't want to answer that's fine.

The linked document (if assumed genuine) is a secret proposal, not a policy admission. The first and foremost rationale behind it was to block or eliminate Marxist/Bolshevik social 'unification' (e.g. class consciousness) or brainwashing schemes, hence the intent for capping education as well, while obviously sifting those who align racially with Germany into the German interior (to live better lives there). It explicitly rejects 'extermination' (for Jews as well) and envisions the rest of the population as laborers (and let's face it: most people in today's world are also 'laborers'). Importantly, Germany was more or less fair to its non-Jewish laborers even during wartime (reasonable wages, benefits). One can certainly argue that it would be better for these people to be free and independent than to be second-class citizens under Germany, but given they were already second-class citizens under Soviet Bolshevism (having mass murdered tens of millions by this time), was this really such a horrific shift?

To compare it to the Morgenthau Plan and to more direct and indisputable atrocities like the mass rape of German women and children sanctioned by Stalin is a bit... unreasonable.

[EDIT: adding reference information to make it searchable on the forum:
Himmler proposal, Translation of Document No-1880 and No-1881, Prosecution Exhibit 1313 and 1314, Treatment of Alien Races in the East (1940)]

[Stubble]

Bombsaway, this isn't 'Thread Drift', it is 'Threadjacking' and 'Obfuscation' pure and simple.

I'm also well aware I'm not a mod, hence I requested the split, to preserve the thread I created.

Now we have another pivot.

We have gone from the subject of the thread, to 'T4 was mass killing' to 'The east plan' and now to 'Stubble is not a mod'.

What we aren't discussing is the undeniable fact that no people were chosen from t4 to perform homicidal gassings that had experience with homicidal gassings. We also aren't discussing how many times the wheel was reinvented by t4 murder machines...

[bombsaway]

Bombsaway, this isn't 'Thread Drift', it is 'Threadjacking' and 'Obfuscation' pure and simple.

I'm also well aware I'm not a mod, hence I requested the split, to preserve the thread I created.

Now we have another pivot.

We have gone from the subject of the thread, to 'T4 was mass killing' to 'The east plan' and now to 'Stubble is not a mod'.

What we aren't discussing is the undeniable fact that no people were chosen from t4 to perform homicidal gassings that had experience with homicidal gassings. We also aren't discussing how many times the wheel was reinvented by t4 murder machines...

It's a tangent. It would be a pivot if I stopped arguing my main point, which I didn't do. One word from the mods and I will put all such tangents in separate threads, but that also has its drawbacks.

[Stubble]

They are pivots because they are diversions.

Furthermore, in their own containing threads they would be more useful, not hidden away here as a threadjack...

Now, would anyone be kind enough to provide me with a list of people who had experience with homicidal gassings under the auspices of the 'T4' program who went on to use that knowledge in 'Operation Reinhard'? If you find one, can you explain why they didn't share any of their prior experience with anyone designing, constructing or using the 'homicidal gassing equipment' at any of the Bug River Camps?

Food for thought;

A video regarding t4 and 14f13.

[Nessie]

...
Now, would anyone be kind enough to provide me with a list of people who had experience with homicidal gassings under the auspices of the 'T4' program who went on to use that knowledge in 'Operation Reinhard'? ...

Amongst those who attended the first T4 gassing included;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Widmann

Albert Widmann, went on the develop gas vans
Philipp Bouhler, went on to Akton 14f13
Viktor Brack, went on to Chelmno
Christian Wirth, went on to AR