Operation Reinhardt staff and the T4 connection

[bombsaway]

Bombsaway, this is actually covered on page 1 and again on page 2. Do we really need to go 'round the maypole again?

Further, I suppose we need a 'what T4 was and what T4 was not' thread.

It was not a mass killing operation. Neither was 14f13. 14f14 also was not a mass killing operation.

T4 was a state approved 'death panel' and 'euthanasia' program. I suppose you prefer they had had something closer to M.A.I.D.S. in Canada, eh?

This is as good a thread as any for us to discuss whether T4 was a mass killing operation

"the disinfection of 70,273 persons"
https://www.ushmm.org/m/pdfs/2000926-Handicapped.pdf

I would say killing over 10k people qualifies as 'mass', you disagree?

Euthanasia is killing, definitionally, obviously.

Mass killing of Jews was seen as mercy killing by some, since there wasn't enough food for them. They were dropping like flies in the ghettos.

Hoppner:

"This winter there is a danger that not all the Jews can be fed anymore. One should weigh honestly, if the most humane solution might not be to finish off those of the Jews who are not employable by means of some quick-working agent. At any rate, that would be more pleasant than to let them starve to death."

[Stubble]

I reported your last post Bombsaway. You are not going to derail this thread.

I asked your comment be either sent to the 'derailment' thread, or split into a new thread.

I'd like this particular thread to be reflective of its title so that future readers may get some use out of it, long and meandering as it has become.

[Callafangers]

This is a good thread as any for us to discuss whether T4 was a mass killing operation

"the disinfection of 70,273 persons"
https://www.ushmm.org/m/pdfs/2000926-Handicapped.pdf

I would say killing over 10k people qualifies as 'mass', you disagree?

Euthanasia is killing, definitionally, obviously.

To call it "killing" is a semantic position you could take; it has also been argued as being compassionate. Hence, arguably just as valid to call it "mass compassion".

Mass killing of Jews was seen as mercy killing by some, since there wasn't enough food for them. They were dropping like flies in the ghettos.

Hoppner:

"This winter there is a danger that not all the Jews can be fed anymore. One should weigh honestly, if the most humane solution might not be to finish off those of the Jews who are not employable by means of some quick-working agent. At any rate, that would be more pleasant than to let them starve to death."

Hoeppner was seeking a promotion at the time (documented), no one claims he would have been "in the know" of any actual 'Holocaust' projects. He is simply being edgy in hopes to bolster his career, demonstrating cut-throat loyalty to the NS cause. There is no evidence of anything otherwise -- nobody anywhere considers Hoeppner to have been an architect of the "Final Solution".

But yes, as Stubble mentions, there are other venues for these topics. There is an existing thread on T-4/euthanasia, for example.

[Stubble]

I believe the proper term would be 'an administrative health policy'.

[bombsaway]

I believe the proper term would be 'an administrative health policy'.

Haha. That you think ending patients' lives and lying to their families about it is a health policy shows how deep your delusions run. I'll wait for Archie to divert to the proper thread but this is clearly relevant. This thread is -explicitly - about parallels between T4 and Reinhardt.

[Stubble]

Staff. The staff....

This thread is about the staff...

By your logic, M.A.i.D. is a mass murder program...

Like you say, we should wait for the split.

[Callafangers]

I believe the proper term would be 'an administrative health policy'.

Haha. That you think ending patients' lives and lying to their families about it is a health policy shows how deep your delusions run. I'll wait for Archie to divert to the proper thread but this is clearly relevant. This thread is -explicitly - about parallels between T4 and Reinhardt.

Much of the USA supported the idea of euthanasia in this same period, it was also discussed by other nations around the world and taken quite seriously. Canada today has expanded its policies on it. You can gawk at how shocking something is to you given that the Allies won the war and have since pumped their 'denazifying' values into world media. But if Germany (or the Axis) had won the war, I can guarantee you there would be less of things like human trafficking and child prostitution, subversion and widespread misery, mass inflation (poverty), etc., which is/are a Weimar and Allied trademark.

WW2 Germany having a radically different system of values than you do does not mean 'the Holocaust happened'.

[bombsaway]

Staff. The staff....

This thread is about the staff...

By your logic, M.A.i.D. is a mass murder program...

Like you say, we should wait for the split.

I said 'mass killing' not mass murder. Murder is by definition unlawful. T4 was state sanctioned, therefore legal, just like the Holocaust, which also is arguably not murder for that reason. The similarities to the alleged Holocaust (and a fact relevant for staff involved) lie not only in the fact of the killing but in the lack of consent given by patients and the overall secrecy of the project and deceptive activities to support this. None of this applies to MAID or any other mass euthanasia program. This is the distinction, which in your delusions and fantasies of Nazi good heartedeness you have glossed over.

Within orthodoxy, this is the reason for T4 staff and leadership's involvement in Reinhardt. Secrecy and being ok with doing something unpleasant and deeply frowned upon by broader German society.

[Stubble]

78% of prospective parents of children with trisomy 21, abort their children...

78% Bombsaway...

The 'victims' of t4 were not just randomly selected, families opted in to the program and the person to be euthanized was reviewed by a panel. A decision was made.

This is not the bill as sold by the allies post war with their inflated numbers and propaganda narrative.

14f13 omitted the family...

[bombsaway]

78% of perspective parents of children with trisomy 21, abort their children...

78% Bombsaway...

The 'victims' of t4 were not just randomly selected, families opted in to the program and the person to be euthanized was reviewed by a panel. A decision was made.

This is not the bill as sold by the allies post war with their inflated numbers and propaganda narrative.

14f13 omitted the family...

No, lol. It was involuntary and they lied to families about what they were doing. I've posted this before. https://www.google.com/books/edition/De ... frontcover

You are D E L U S I O N A L

[Callafangers]

The similarities to the alleged Holocaust (and a fact relevant for staff involved) lie not only in the fact of the killing but in the lack of consent given by patients and the overall secrecy of the project and deceptive activities to support this.

Can people with extreme disabilities 'consent' to anything? Modern sex abuse laws would say "no".

As for the families, there is no secret that Germany put the well-being of the nation over that of any individual (or individual families). Keeping the peace via an authoritarian approach in selective disclosure on the elements of controversial policies fits in-line with this, and may be validated during wartime. This obviously has nothing to do with a continental racial-Jewish 'gassing' policy.

I have not studied the extent of T-4's alleged secrecy but if its anything like the evidence for the scale (e.g. euthanasia post-1941) or methodology (e.g. 'gassing'), it warrants suspicion.

More T-4 discussion here:

Aktion T4, What is true and what is not?
viewtopic.php?t=30

[Stubble]

78% of perspective parents of children with trisomy 21, abort their children...

78% Bombsaway...

The 'victims' of t4 were not just randomly selected, families opted in to the program and the person to be euthanized was reviewed by a panel. A decision was made.

This is not the bill as sold by the allies post war with their inflated numbers and propaganda narrative.

14f13 omitted the family...

No, lol. It was involuntary and they lied to families about what they were doing. I've posted this before. https://www.google.com/books/edition/De ... frontcover

You are D E L U S I O N A L

You are P R O G R A M M E D

[bombsaway]

The similarities to the alleged Holocaust (and a fact relevant for staff involved) lie not only in the fact of the killing but in the lack of consent given by patients and the overall secrecy of the project and deceptive activities to support this.

Can people with extreme disabilities 'consent' to anything? Modern sex abuse laws would say "no".

As for the families, there is no secret that Germany put the well-being of the nation over that of any individual (or individual families). Keeping the peace via an authoritarian approach in selective disclosure on the elements of controversial policies fits in-line with this, and may be validated during wartime. This obviously has nothing to do with a continental racial-Jewish 'gassing' policy.

I have not studied the extent of T-4's alleged secrecy but if its anything like the evidence for the scale (e.g. euthanasia post-1941) or methodology (e.g. 'gassing'), it warrants suspicion.

More T-4 discussion here:

Aktion T4, What is true and what is not?
viewtopic.php?t=30

I'm not allowed on the research forum.

You could probably justify the Holocaust (assuming it was true) just as you justify the proposed ethnic cleansing of 50 million people (Generalplan Ost). The latter would have been worse than the Holocaust in terms of pain and suffering inflicted upon people IMO. If I was a Nazi apologist, this is what I would do , and lots of people do it (believe it happened, are proud of it).

The policy was deeply conspiratorial. This entailed lying to the public (eg through manufactured illnesses referenced above) as well as bureaucratic secrecy (using coded language in documents). Unpleasant work, secrecy, this is the connection to the alleged Holocaust.

[Stubble]

A program so secret, that its first employment was widely publicized?

I'm working on a post about 'The Doctors Trial' with regard to what 'Aktion T4' was.

Again, these inmates were not selected, the families were involved, and there was a panel.

14f13 had no family involvement.

Also, orphans were 'unique' as there was no family to be involved.

The idea that people were being indiscriminately murdered under T4 is a misconception.

[bombsaway]

A program so secret, that its first employment was widely publicized?

I'm working on a post about 'The Doctors Trial' with regard to what 'Aktion T4' was.

Again, these inmates were not selected, the families were involved, and there was a panel.

14f13 had no family involvement.

Also, orphans were 'unique' as there was no family to be involved.

The idea that people were being indiscriminately murdered under T4 is a misconception.

It was the opposite of widely publicized. There was no family involvement, actually they were deceived. Did you read the document I referenced above?

They weren't being indiscriminately murdered. They were killed on an economic basis - which did have to do with wartime circumstances, food security. Here too there are parallels with the alleged Holocaust.

You are hallucinating here, badly. If you're ill informed about a certain topic you should refrain from making assertions about it.