Callafangers' statements of fact / rebuttable presumptions about Belzec and Sobibor

[Eye of Zyclone]

For info, grey and black layers of soil are not necessarily layers of ashes. Hydric soils also display grey and black layers.

Fair point. There's no question we are at the "mercy" of the team that did the digging/drilling, having to decide whether or not we can trust they did so with sincere intentions, appropriate competence, and documented their findings accurately. There is a lot that can be said about the contents of the reports but I lean toward the interpretation that they were most likely well-intentioned. And as it turns out, their findings align well with non-incriminating corpse quantities reflecting Sobibor as a common-sense economic and disinfestation border/transit facility.

It is always interesting to me that everyone seems to acknowledge that the ghettos generally didn't have their own crematory facilities. We are all just supposed to assume the many thousands of corpses (from disease, etc.) were buried somewhere nearby, maybe because 'Shmuel Bergstein' said so, in some instances (but not all)... Meanwhile, outdoor pyres and typhus control measures were already taking place at nearby border facilities and trains from the ghettos were already being sent en route toward these border stations. Thus, findings of thousands or even low-mid tens of thousands of corpses at the 'Reinhardt' sites (if being charitable) is perfectly within a revisionist interpretation, no further minimization needed.

All of that said, yes, the reports (e.g. Kola) are weak, vague, and with all of the political (and ideological) motives and liars surrounding the 'Holocaust', it is very much justified to expect much more before concluding on too specific a range of actual corpses here. We know with certainty that property (furniture, clothing, papers, etc.) were being burned and buried en masse.

True. No serious person can believe that such a massive wartime population transfer would have resulted in a death toll of zero deportees. A mortality rate of 10 or 20% would necessarily have generated a need for the disposal of hundreds of thousands of corpses in that area and beyond. I was not challenging that. I was just reminding everyone that caution is advised when dealing with statements from these people, whose dishonesty and political biases are no longer in doubt.

[Nessie]

To determine how many corpses were buried, the number of people who arrived at the between from the first transport, to the point that burials stopped, as cremations had begun, needs to be calculated. The earliest report of cremations, is from Krzepicki, at TII, as a result of rumours about the mass graves at Katyn. The Polish soldiers had gone missing in 1940 and Soviet claims they had been taken east, and that the Nazis had killed them were being made in the latter part of 1941. Rumours of the massacre and mass graves, had been around for some time by the time Krzepicki was at TII in September 1942. The first mass grave at Katyn was found by Polish workmen in 1942, but the Nazis did not officially announce the mass graves had been found until April 1943.

Assuming that cremations also started in Belzec and Sobibor, in September 1942, that means the graves contained corpses of those who arrived mid March to mid September for Belzec and May to mid September, for Sobibor.

[Keen]

True. No serious person can believe that such a massive wartime population transfer would have resulted in a death toll of zero deportees. A mortality rate of 10 or 20% would necessarily have generated a need for the disposal of hundreds of thousands of corpses in that area and beyond. I was not challenging that. I was just reminding everyone that caution is advised when dealing with statements from these people, whose dishonesty and political biases are no longer in doubt.

Thank you for your input EofZ, much appreciated.

And again, I remind everyone that, despite Callafangers repeated, malicious and childish attempts at misdirection, the isssue here isn't what percentage of jews may or may not have died during a massive wartime populatioin transfer, but the remains of how many people were actually discovered within Sobibor's 24 fraudulently alleged "huge mass graves."

This is about science, not history or demographics or anything else. Science. It is the investigation of alleged archaeological / forensic / scientific findings. "Findings" that a blind man can see are fraudulent. "Findings" that fall apart the moment you break things down to the individual "huge mass grave" level.

Callafangers has nothing but a "convergence of evidence" theory based on faith in known and proven liars and frauds. The problem here is, Callafangers and his ilk don't have the courage, integrity or character to admit that they were wrong, so he / they continue playing word games and dodge quesgtions in a way that is EXACTLY like those of the exterminationists.

How many times does this have to be said:

By examining each “proven mass grave” allegation separately, an intelligent person can easily see just how utterly vacuous and criminally fraudulent this transparent archaeological hoax really is.

Remember: If the alleged Sobibor “holocaust” really did happen as alleged, then there actually would be numerous discernable extant huge mass graves filled with the remains of hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of people to prove it. So this is not a historical issue per se; this is clearly about - SCIENCE - and all that is being done here is the common-sense act of simply asking to see the alleged “archaeological proof” that the true-believers insist is so “undeniable.” Remember also - it is ipso facto proof of fraud - if a scientist refuses to answer pertinent questions about their alleged / insinuated discoveries.

Before people open their eyes to the truth? Again:

It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.

[Keen]

They do indeed wear "Holocaust goggles"

And you don't?



Callafangers:

There's no question we are at the "mercy" of the team that did the digging/drilling, having to decide whether or not we can trust they did so with sincere intentions, appropriate competence, and documented their findings accurately.

What an incredibly stupid statement.

We are not at anyones mercy. All an intelligent person has to do is open their eyes and have the courage, integrity and character to admit that they never looked at the "findings" close enough and were fooled by the big-lie technique.

[Keen]

Bla, bla, bla...

A - $100.00 reward - is being offered for each one of the 24 alleged graves / cremation pits in question that is proven - with the same standard of proof applied in U. S. civil courts - to actually exist and to currently contain the remains of - at least 2 people.

http://thisisaboutscience.com/

What are you waiting for Nesserto?

What are you so afraid of?

[Keen]

I think the only reason that Callafangers and Archie believe the studies were "real" is that they think the results themselves are damning to orthodoxy.

Exactly, they (and their ilk) know that the average person has a hard time accepting that the orthodox holohoax story sits on a foundation of big-lies (Hitler explained the big-lie technique very well), and they themselves have an even harder time believing that the "science" allegedly "proving" the holohoax is yet another massive big-lie piled onto the historical big-lies.

They just can't accetpt the fact that they were fooled, and that is why they cravenly refuse to answer this:

Based on all of the evidence that I know exists,
especially all of the physical evidence uncovered by Yoram Haimi's archaeological excavations
( https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=19148#p19148 ),
and all of the geophysical data collected
( https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=18937#p18937 ),
and all of the physical evidence that Kola uncovered via core samples ("dozens of which contained at least some amount of corpse material" - i.e. - "charred human remains and remains in a state of decay")
and these photos of unanalyzed "but apparent" ash from an unknown source & "apparent burnt remains" from an unknown source in core samples taken from unknown locations:



I believe that it can be logically and rationally estimated that the following "huge mass graves" contain / contained - NO LESS THAN - the following amount of human remains:

"Huge mass grave" #1: ?

"Huge mass grave" #2: ?

"Huge mass grave" #3: ?

"Huge mass grave" #4: ?

"Huge mass grave" #5: ?

"Huge mass grave" #6: ?

"Huge mass grave" #7: ?

"Huge mass grave" #22 (The "Mound of Ashes"): ?

TOTAL: ?

[Keen]

I think Keen has admirably demonstrated that the various teams have been composed of delusional frauds.

Thank you Stubble. (But I still don't believe the "delusional" part, since it is obvious that their intention from the start was to decieve.)

And let's not forget that Richard Freund (an ordained rabi - a rabi would never lie to the goyim, rigth?) was a major player in the Sobibor psy-op. He is the proven liar who was THE major player in the fraudulent Ponary "mass grave / escape tunnel" charade. And anyone who has ever looked into it knows that the Ponary psy-op was an even more transparent charade / big-lie than the Sobibor psy-op.

And ask Mr. Gerdes what Freund did when he was repeatedly asked questions about his Sobibor "investigation." (I believe Mr. Gerdes will tell you that Freund never responded to a single email - just like every other player in the charade, except Haimi, who responded with vauge and misleading answers then abruptly stopped answering questions after Mr. Gerdes dialed in the questions and put Haimi in a corner.) Remember also - it is ipso facto proof of fraud - if a scientist refuses to answer pertinent questions about their alleged / insinuated discoveries.

[Callafangers]

I believe your response to the image I pulled from one the Sobibor digs, of grave 5, was 'too many farts for revisionists to explain'.

There were no bodies in wax fat transformation.

Using Hanlon's Razor and trying to be charitable, I made the argument you just made. Basically, 'The data was misinterpreted from the bore studies by Kola because his holocaust goggles are too tight'.

Then Keen leaned in with what has been said about the digs, by Kola and others, and their blatant misrepresentations of what has been found.

I must concede, fraud indeed applies as a descriptor. I apologize for being the one to tell you this, and I didn't want to believe it either. Unfortunately, it is the truth. They are lying.

/shrug

Stubble, I am not sure what you are referring to, here? "Too many farts for revisionists to explain" has never been my words. If you're paraphrasing tongue-in-cheek, please at least link the statement you're basing it upon.

The bodies in wax-fat transformation are reported in the core samples -- not photographed. The term "wax-fat" is mentioned 14 times over the course of the 33 alleged graves reviewed:

https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... camps.html

You can insist they are lying and "apologize for being the one to tell" me anything , but you're now taking on the burden to prove to neutral listeners in the court of public opinion that this entire team has indeed conspired to commit fraud outright. Good luck with that -- the evidence presented so far by you, Keen, etc. does not suffice for this. It is a dead-end, in terms of progressing revisionism. It's the same reason that Keen (Greg Gerdes) has been spamming his famous questions on every message board he can find for the last 20+ years and yet the 'Holocaust' is still widely-accepted by nations globally. Keen is not going to write a book on anything, ever, since his pages would be filled with the same circular, dead-end argumentation he's demonstrated his maximum capacity for. It's useful for promoting the overall paradigm shift (makes you say, "hmmm...") but no intelligent, open-minded person would find it especially compelling or conclusive against the weight of the entire 'Holocaust' establishment. Mattogno, Rudolf, Graf, and others get credit for this -- not Greg Gerdes.

Keen/Greg insist "this is about science" despite the issue clearly not being only about science, since there are obvious political and investigative dimensions which impact how, whether, and to what degree the scientific method can be applied here. Consider:

• Excavations in general are far more often an archaeological specialty than a scientific one. Kola and other teams conducting these investigations are not without basis to apply less-stringent standards, simply digging and documenting as archaeologists generally do
• There is the issue of permission in these diggings: we all know that various jurisdictions (and their rabbis) have prohibited diggings in many cases, or ordered that the diggings be stopped the very moment that 'findings' (corpses) are discovered
• Due to the perceived sensitivity of the topic, we might not expect zoomed-in, high-definition photographs of human skin/hair remains; these likely would not make it onto the final report
• If these excavation teams were really committing fraud to 'prove the Holocaust', you'd think they would have provided something that shows quantities in the range of what the 'Holocaust' alleges -- instead, they solidify that there is orders of magnitude less

The bottom-line is that it has not been proven (not by a long shot) that these teams themselves were deliberately dishonest, rather than simply biased and misguided like the rest of society. There is zero evidence of this, which is why Keen focuses on spamming his usual questions rather than providing actual evidence of fraudulence. If there were clear evidence of fraudulence, revisionists would have zeroed-in on this decades ago and there would be no need to spam the same questions and belligerent insults with big red font, etc., over and over again.

[bombsaway]

I think the only reason that Callafangers and Archie believe the studies were "real" is that they think the results themselves are damning to orthodoxy.

Exactly, they (and their ilk) know that the average person has a hard time accepting that the orthodox holohoax story sits on a foundation of big-lies (Hitler explained the big-lie technique very well), and they themselves have an even harder time believing that the "science" allegedly "proving" the holohoax is yet another massive big-lie piled onto the historical big-lies.

Their point though is that the studies are so obviously anti-Holocaust evidence that no reasonable hoaxing party would have ever fabricated them. Assuming they are right, this is a good point.

I think you have to show them the studies are incriminating to some degree and don't obviously refute orthodoxy.




this is why they fear us, Keen

[Callafangers]

this is why they fear us, Keen

This is the plot twist I never saw coming.

[Stubble]

I believe your response to the image I pulled from one the Sobibor digs, of grave 5, was 'too many farts for revisionists to explain'.

There were no bodies in wax fat transformation.

Using Hanlon's Razor and trying to be charitable, I made the argument you just made. Basically, 'The data was misinterpreted from the bore studies by Kola because his holocaust goggles are too tight'.

Then Keen leaned in with what has been said about the digs, by Kola and others, and their blatant misrepresentations of what has been found.

I must concede, fraud indeed applies as a descriptor. I apologize for being the one to tell you this, and I didn't want to believe it either. Unfortunately, it is the truth. They are lying.

/shrug

Stubble, I am not sure what you are referring to, here? "Too many farts for revisionists to explain" has never been my words. If you're paraphrasing tongue-in-cheek, please at least link the statement you're basing it upon.

The bodies in wax-fat transformation are reported in the core samples -- not photographed. The term "wax-fat" is mentioned 14 times over the course of the 33 alleged graves reviewed:

https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... camps.html

You can insist they are lying and "apologize for being the one to tell" me anything , but you're now taking on the burden to prove to neutral listeners in the court of public opinion that this entire team has indeed conspired to commit fraud outright. Good luck with that -- the evidence presented so far by you, Keen, etc. does not suffice for this. It is a dead-end, in terms of progressing revisionism. It's the same reason that Keen (Greg Gerdes) has been spamming his famous questions on every message board he can find for the last 20+ years and yet the 'Holocaust' is still widely-accepted by nations globally. Keen is not going to write a book on anything, ever, since his pages would be filled with the same circular, dead-end argumentation he's demonstrated his maximum capacity for. It's useful for promoting the overall paradigm shift (makes you say, "hmmm...") but no intelligent, open-minded person would find it especially compelling or conclusive against the weight of the entire 'Holocaust' establishment. Mattogno, Rudolf, Graf, and others get credit for this -- not Greg Gerdes.

Keen/Greg insist "this is about science" despite the issue clearly not being only about science, since there are obvious political and investigative dimensions which impact how, whether, and to what degree the scientific method can be applied here. Consider:

• Excavations in general are far more often an archaeological specialty than a scientific one. Kola and other teams conducting these investigations are not without basis to apply less-stringent standards, simply digging and documenting as archaeologists generally do
• There is the issue of permission in these diggings: we all know that various jurisdictions (and their rabbis) have prohibited diggings in many cases, or ordered that the diggings be stopped the very moment that 'findings' (corpses) are discovered
• Due to the perceived sensitivity of the topic, we might not expect zoomed-in, high-definition photographs of human skin/hair remains; these likely would not make it onto the final report
• If these excavation teams were really committing fraud to 'prove the Holocaust', you'd think they would have provided something that shows quantities in the range of what the 'Holocaust' alleges -- instead, they solidify that there is orders of magnitude less

The bottom-line is that it has not been proven (not by a long shot) that these teams themselves were deliberately dishonest, rather than simply biased and misguided like the rest of society. There is zero evidence of this, which is why Keen focuses on spamming his usual questions rather than providing actual evidence of fraudulence. If there were clear evidence of fraudulence, revisionists would have zeroed-in on this decades ago and there would be no need to spam the same questions and belligerent insults with big red font, etc., over and over again.

My apologies Boss.

Oh but they did;



This is from one of the 2013 digs. Spring if I recall correctly, there are others.

"...and in this next grave, you can tragically witness Jewish flatulence buried by the Nazis, emanating from the ground... by our count, there are 12,800 farts buried here, far too many to be explained by deniers..."

Checkmate, Nazis.

Deniers, not revisionists. Also, I didn't remember the post verbatim.

[HansHill]

this is why they fear us, Keen

Ok Bombsaway… we’ll let you be White. Just this once

[Hektor]

....
I think you have to show them the studies are incriminating to some degree and don't obviously refute orthodoxy.

Not really, the studies show that there were some people buried inside the assumed time frame. Now that's expected in a war zone / camps with prisoners at least to some degree. There are/were indeed some records on the mortality in camps... And revisionist acknowledge those. So, finding remains indicating that several thousand corpses may have been buried there, doesn't contradict or shatter the Revisionist Thesis at all. In fact it would be strange if NOTHING was found there. What isn't found there is what you'd expect, if those sites were indeed extermination centers as is widely alleged. They didn't even have crematoria nor mass disposal facilities although the technology was indeed available at the time.

[Callafangers]

My apologies Boss.

"...and in this next grave, you can tragically witness Jewish flatulence buried by the Nazis, emanating from the ground... by our count, there are 12,800 farts buried here, far too many to be explained by deniers..."

Checkmate, Nazis.

Deniers, not revisionists. Also, I didn't remember the post verbatim.

That is my fault! Sorry, forgot I had even written that. I'd still acknowledge that the "grave photographs" are nothing in terms of evidence. This is where I have felt aligned with Keen: they haven't actually shown us anything, e.g. in photos. The only way to interpret potentially thousands of Jews buried at these camps is by at least taking the written reports somewhat seriously. I'm willing to do this (based on my own understanding and interpretation, especially since generally mundane/realistic findings), others might not be, for their own reasons.

[Stubble]

That is my fault! Sorry, forgot I had even written that. I'd still acknowledge that the "grave photographs" are nothing in terms of evidence. This is where I have felt aligned with Keen: they haven't actually shown us anything, e.g. in photos. The only way to interpret potentially thousands of Jews buried at these camps is by at least taking the written reports somewhat seriously. I'm willing to do this (based on my own understanding and interpretation, especially since generally mundane/realistic findings), others might not be, for their own reasons.

Where I'm at with it, is that's 'grave 5'...

I mean, how much clean fill is that?

There's, nothing there.

It was surprising for them to go through and say:

'Grave 1 is not a mass grave'

'Grave 2 is not a mass grave'

Etc.

The biggest problem with the 'Huge Mass Graves' hypothesis is, there are to date, no 'Huge Mass Graves'.

For the record, before seriously investigating the questions posed by Keen, I had just assumed there was some legitimacy to the 'Huge Mass Graves' claim. Imagine my surprise to discover, there's not...

Look at Kola's description of grave 5 some time.