Alleged Treblinka extermination location

[Nazgul]

Treblinka Extermination Camp location.

This has been posted elsewhere, but as an ongoing research project with very limited funds, I would like those interested to discuss the issues outlined below.

There are many conflicting reports on the location of the Treblinka extermination camp, from Malkinia, Czerwony -bor, TII KZ judenlager and Kosow Laski (Podlaski). The first interesting point was the first Wiernik map of Treblinka which was rectangle and puts the camp next to the Warsaw line to Malkinia. I am responding to another poster here, but here is the gist. I will add more as I find many scattered files from lost hardware.

Can you show me on the map exactly? Google maps. I am wondering where you position the camp in Malkinia called Treblinka.

The transit camp was located close to the top reddish tear drop in the image below. This camp is directly north of the Treblinka railway station.

To be fair this is well within walking distance of the camp and no trains needed. In fact there is no railway to this transit camp.


The Holocaust Encyclopedia puts the Treblinka camp NW 4 km. From where the Treblinka station was, 4km NW was marked out until it reaches the current railway line to Warsaw. this is the end of the yellow line. This fits in with Wierniks first map that places Treblinka next to and south of the Warsaw-Bialystok trunk line.

Here is Wierniks first map. He has North, NE to his camp location. This is an issue as the railway runs directly east to west, with north being directly straight up.


Potential location on Google Earth.



Being out in compass direction is common in the maps of the Treblinka camps. As you may well know, the current location called TII lay alongside the Malkinia - Siedlce railway line. This used to run in a North- South direction where the camp is. The following map of Treblinka II site has north pointing towards the East; this is entirely the wrong map orientation.


The error is repeated in other maps, perhaps copied from the first. These maps were apparently drawn by professional cartographer or surveyor; I find it hard to believe that a professional could make such an amateurish mistake.

Below is a modern map. Note the error is corrected.



I realise that both maps are on slightly different angles, so the Serveyors map was orientated 28 degrees so that the spur line is running close to parallel to each in both maps. The rotated image is below to compare and contrast the position North in both maps. The bottom map does correspond with the current location of TII but the surveyors maps do not. Either the surveyor is not worth the salt he is paid to, or he has surveyed another area.




North is still well out. If surveyors can get it wrong, I am sure Wiernik could as well.

Keep in mind that just south of the current TII was purported to be the extermination camp of Kosow Podlaski. This was confirmed by the elders of the village of Wolka Okraglik. Here is the CIA entry.



The early CIA had the following entry for the Treblinka camps; they thought Malkinia was a correctional centre.


From this the current TII, is the Judenlager, called a kz in the entry. TIII has been placed in the Czerwony bor forest. This needs more investigation.

"The Treblinka-III camp was listed as "the death camp" for the Jews and was reported to be located at Czerwony Bor. As late as in 1944, its existence was also mentioned in the renowned wartime publication Ghetto Speaks published in New York (Encl. 6). The remote Czerwony Bor (Red Forest) was (and is) located forty kilometers north of the Treblinka-I and Treblinka-II camps. Additional documents regarding Treblinka-III are available from the Polish Historical Society in the USA (tel. 203--325--1079) and archives of the Polish Underground Study Trust in London (tel. 011-4481-992-6057)."...John Demjanjuk amicus curiae

Czerwony bor is now the site of a current penal institution.

[borjastick]

Wiernik was a gibbering, hysterical liar paid a few hundred shekels to bleat on camera about what happened, how terrible it was and what a crime was committed against dem joos. Just for a laugh everyone should watch his TV interview to see that his story was written for him about two minutes before he went in front of the camera at a time when no one could have foreseen technical and scientific research advances would smash the lies of the holocaust within a short period of time.

But the Treblinka story was set and to this day we have believers, like those who come here, and more technical bods like Caroline Sturdey Colls tying themselves in knots and tripping themselves up to make the claims stand up. They don't.

I have no doubt that Treblinka and Malkinia were transit camps or used as tea stops for a few hours and nothing more. Sure there would have been some who died en route and were buried or cremated there etc but when someone claims that 800k jews were transported to T2 offloaded and then gassed on site only to be mass buried, then dug up and cremated I wonder what universe do they inhabit. It is total nonsense.

Submarine engines anyone?

[Nazgul]

I have no doubt that Treblinka and Malkinia were transit camps or used as tea stops for a few hours and nothing more. Sure there would have been some who died en route and were buried or cremated there etc but when someone claims that 800k jews were transported to T2 offloaded and then gassed on site only to be mass buried, then dug up and cremated I wonder what universe do they inhabit. It is total nonsense.

Submarine engines anyone?

Malkinia was a transit camp, two inmates who were sent to Aushwitz identified it as such. It is known and reported by

Code: Select all

www.deutschland-ein-denkmal.de/ded/start

a German research group (now offline) that Treblinka had two Judenlagers attached to the Quarry; two camps, one for men and women respectively. The proximity to TI and the information by Olszuk makes this likely. Of course every KZ was a transit camp, even Birkenau.

The survivor testimony to me proves that aktion 14f13 did occur at Sobibor (decrepit euthanasia). As you know there are reports of the elderly dying on transports, so they are sent over the rainbow bridge before that happens. At Sobibor it is clear this was done by shooting.

The judenlager (TII) was quite different. Unlike Sobibor which apparently was empty much of the time, Treblinka was full according to Olszuk.

I agree with you, to many the knowledge of elderly euthanasia (not just Jews) morphed into mass murder of Jews.

[pilgrimofdark]

Sorting out the difference between T-I, T-II, T-III, the train station, and the town in the contemporary literature is surprisingly difficult.

This article lists three different Treblinka camps:

The established list of general concentration camps is as follows: ... Tremblinka I...
...
These camps were established during the period of mass deportations of the rural population. Peasants were placed there. There are several large camps of this type: Potulica II, Starogard I, and Tremblinka II.
...
The camps were established in connection with the campaign to exterminate Jews in Europe. Some of them are actually execution sites, where Jews from Polish ghettos and from all over Europe are murdered using poison gas, electricity, and machine guns. Three such camps gained the greatest notoriety as death camps: Bełżec, Sobibór near Włodawa, and Tremblinka III near Małkinia.

- Dziennik Polski, October 5, 1943.
Source

The Polish Home Army, in its report about the Treblinka Revolt, conflated it with the labor camp. The Polish partisans who spied on the area for over a year can not differentiate between T-I and T-II.

3/. Treblinka Labor Camp. On August 8, 1943, a large number of Jews, approximately 1,500, escaped from Treblinka. Among these Jews were not those designated for execution in the camp. On August 8, the Jews, taking advantage of the fact that part of the Treblinka crew - 15 Ukrainians - had gone to the Bug River to bathe, in two organized and armed groups attacked the barracks with weapons, murdering several hundred Ukrainian guards. Then they began destroying the camp facilities, simultaneously setting fire to the barracks. Machine gun crews positioned on observation towers opened fire; many Jews fell while escaping, and the rest fled to the surrounding area. The gendarme units that were attacked on that day [...] carried out a raid in the vicinity of Treblinka, during which they captured [...] 120 Jews.

- Source

This article from October 1944 conflates the Treblinka station area with the extermination operation. It also mentions the Ostbahn/Wehrmacht transfer of service.

Because the train, which had just sped along the track towards Małkinia, when it reached the outskirts of Treblinka, would change its service: Polish railway workers would be replaced by the army, and the wagons would be emptied of people arriving from a distant world.

- "The Big City of Treblinka." Robotnik Polski w Wielkiej Brytanji. October 1, 1944.
Link

(The article is obviously anachronistic, since the T-II camp had been closed, and the Soviets had retaken the Malkinia area by this date.)

This 1944 map of the Malkinia area indicates a separate "Treblinka" at the outskirts of the train station/town. It's significantly north of the T-II location and T-I gravel quarry. It is more consistent with the description from Robotnik Polski w Wielkiej Brytanji and it has an "irregular quadrangle" shape on the map.

Caution: giant image, can't even be embedded
Malkinia 1944