A New Revisionist Interpretation of Operation Reinhardt

[Nessie]

"Fahrplananordnung 567
26 March 1943
Tschentochau - Treblinka"

Where do you get the 8 minutes between Malkinia and Treblinka from? The document shows Malkinia 6.20 and then Treblinka also 6.20.

Look carefully, Malkinia was left in the special plan (sonderplan) at 6.20, the arrival at the destination was 6.28.
....

You failing to distinguish between a time table to enable people to wait at a station for a train to catch and a scheduling order is entirely your affair. A steam train cannot go 7.5 km with 60 wagons and 6 000 people in 7 or 8 minutes from stationary and then stop.

You cannot rule out a typo. You also cannot rule out that the Fplo only records a movement from Malkinia to near to Treblinka station and not the final shunting into the camp.

What does that document prove? It certainly does not cancel out all the evidence for mass arrivals at TII.

[Nazgul]

You cannot rule out a typo. What does that document prove? It certainly does not cancel out all the evidence for mass arrivals at TII.

How can it be a typo when one fplo has 7 mins and another has 8. There would be an issue if the time it took was zero as you suggest. Servicing the labour camp may have been a regular schedule, but the Judenlagers would have been manned by special trains, using fplo to the labour camps. The Judenlagers were part of the labour camp structure at TI.

While I do not accept the evidence of mass transports to any camp except Birkenau, it was not AR so out of this discussion. I am not convinced of the exact location of the alleged "extermination camp' near Treblinka village due to much conflicting information. I am convinced that Wiernik went to Malkinia Transit Camp, Joseph Hirtreiter worked there, it was also called Treblinka for some reason. The current TII was probably two Judenlagers, which is why Olszuk saw nothing of interest. This was not the extermination camp if it existed. Not much on the Kosow Lacki camp mentioned by the OSS and town elders of Ograglik. Keep in mind that Czerwony-bor was also cited as an extermination camp and Treblinka III.

[Nessie]

You cannot rule out a typo. What does that document prove? It certainly does not cancel out all the evidence for mass arrivals at TII.

How can it be a typo when one fplo has 7 mins and another has 8. There would be an issue if the time it took was zero as you suggest. Servicing the labour camp may have been a regular schedule, but the Judenlagers would have been manned by special trains, using fplo to the labour camps. The Judenlagers were part of the labour camp structure at TI.

While I do not accept the evidence of mass transports to any camp except Birkenau, it was not AR so out of this discussion. I am not convinced of the exact location of the alleged "extermination camp' near Treblinka village due to much conflicting information. I am convinced that Wiernik went to Malkinia Transit Camp, Joseph Hirtreiter worked there, it was also called Treblinka for some reason. The current TII was probably two Judenlagers, which is why Olszuk saw nothing of interest. This was not the extermination camp if it existed. Not much on the Kosow Lacki camp mentioned by the OSS and town elders of Ograglik. Keep in mind that Czerwony-bor was also cited as an extermination camp and Treblinka III.

In that case it is the timetabled time taken for the train to arrive at the place in Treblinka where it then waits to be shunted into the camp. The Fplos remain part of the evidence from multiple witnesses and documents of mass transports to TII. There is so much evidence for mass transports to the AR camps that even you use it when you try to claim there is no evidence

[Nazgul]

In that case it is the timetabled time taken for the train to arrive at the place in Treblinka where it then waits to be shunted into the camp.

There was an arbeitslager quarry with two Judenlagers attached. The main transport would have stopped at the then existing Treblinka railway station, after being directed into a siding to have some wagons uncoupled. It would then likely pick up wagons from the quarry with rocks. Keep in mind that trains not only have wagons for rocks, coal etc, but carriages for passengers. No doubt people leaving the arbeitslager after their sentence would leave on one of these.

The wagons to go to the various camps in the complex would be shunted down the spur with a small steam train as is done in logging camps and coal mines.

The Fplos remain part of the evidence from multiple witnesses and documents of mass transports to TII.

How would the witnesses know what Fplo number it was. When one catches a train, you may know the train name, its number but not the internal rail schedule numbers. There may have been mass transports to some AR camp in the area, but they cannot be the Fplo commonly available for perusal. You realise the circularity of your argument. At RODOH you produced Fplo evidence as hard evidence to support your witnesses. Now you are using the witnesses to support the Fplo information. Going round in circles is sorta chasing your own tail, and in your case, tale.

[Nessie]

In that case it is the timetabled time taken for the train to arrive at the place in Treblinka where it then waits to be shunted into the camp.

There was an arbeitslager quarry with two Judenlagers attached. The main transport would have stopped at the then existing Treblinka railway station, after being directed into a siding to have some wagons uncoupled. It would then likely pick up wagons from the quarry with rocks. Keep in mind that trains not only have wagons for rocks, coal etc, but carriages for passengers. No doubt people leaving the arbeitslager after their sentence would leave on one of these.

The wagons to go to the various camps in the complex would be shunted down the spur with a small steam train as is done in logging camps and coal mines.

Your problem is how easily you detach yourself from the evidence. You like to concoct theories, but then when it comes to evidencing.....

The Fplos remain part of the evidence from multiple witnesses and documents of mass transports to TII.

How would the witnesses know what Fplo number it was. When one catches a train, you may know the train name, its number but not the internal rail schedule numbers. There may have been mass transports to some AR camp in the area, but they cannot be the Fplo commonly available for perusal. You realise the circularity of your argument. At RODOH you produced Fplo evidence as hard evidence to support your witnesses. Now you are using the witnesses to support the Fplo information. Going round in circles is sorta chasing your own tail, and in your case, tale.

Corroboration is where evidence aligns. Rather than a circle, it is parallel lines. If witness say there were mass transports from one place to another place at a certain time, and timetables are found of transports that match (give or take minor errors with dates and times, which are to be expected), then that is evidence which aligns and corroborates. The documents add credibility to the witness claims.

When Nazis who worked on AR and Jews who were on transports and Poles who saw the transports all agree, and there are documents that also record mass transports, that is like hundreds of parallel lines aligning and all converging at the same conclusion. That is what corroboration is and why it is the most reliable method for determining what happened. Not your unevidenced theories.

[Nazgul]

Your problem is how easily you detach yourself from the evidence. You like to concoct theories, but then when it comes to evidencing.....

Explain which part is incorrect. One cannot correct a generalisation,

Corroboration is where evidence aligns. Rather than a circle, it is parallel lines. If witness say there were mass transports from one place to another place at a certain time, and timetables are found of transports that match (give or take minor errors with dates and times, which are to be expected), then that is evidence which aligns and corroborates. The documents add credibility to the witness claims.

Meaningless nonsense without detail. I asked how witnesses would know about Fplo and you state the above. It is clear people were shipped out en masse. You have no knowledge where they went to, neither do your witnesses, stuff is made up, concocted theories of ineptitude.

There are documents that also record mass transports

I have asked for these many times. Shipping people out from say a ghetto is not the same as assuming the same transport took them to some place of death. The witnesses have assumed this, this was the rumour. That is all we are hearing.

[Nessie]

Your problem is how easily you detach yourself from the evidence. You like to concoct theories, but then when it comes to evidencing.....

Explain which part is incorrect. One cannot correct a generalisation,

You provide no evidence, no witnesses, nothing.

Corroboration is where evidence aligns. Rather than a circle, it is parallel lines. If witness say there were mass transports from one place to another place at a certain time, and timetables are found of transports that match (give or take minor errors with dates and times, which are to be expected), then that is evidence which aligns and corroborates. The documents add credibility to the witness claims.

Meaningless nonsense without detail.

I explain how corroboration with an example.

I asked how witnesses would know about Fplo and you state the above.

The Jewish witnesses would not know about the Nazi documents. That means they are independent sources of evidence.
Corroboration is at its strongest, when the evidence is from different, independent sources. When a Jewish witness states the same thing as a Nazi document, that is two independent sources of evidence that agree, which is strong corroboration.

It is clear people were shipped out en masse. You have no knowledge where they went to, neither do your witnesses, stuff is made up, concocted theories of ineptitude.

How do you know that? Where is your evidence?

There are documents that also record mass transports

I have asked for these many times. Shipping people out from say a ghetto is not the same as assuming the same transport took them to some place of death. The witnesses have assumed this, this was the rumour. That is all we are hearing.

I am not assuming they went to TII, I am being led by the corroborating evidence they went to TII. The evidence determines my conclusion. The witness who worked at TII did not assume they worked there!

[Nazgul]

Your problem is how easily you detach yourself from the evidence. You like to concoct theories, but then when it comes to evidencing.....

Explain which part is incorrect. One cannot correct a generalisation,

You provide no evidence, no witnesses, nothing.

Corroboration is where evidence aligns. Rather than a circle, it is parallel lines. If witness say there were mass transports from one place to another place at a certain time, and timetables are found of transports that match (give or take minor errors with dates and times, which are to be expected), then that is evidence which aligns and corroborates. The documents add credibility to the witness claims.

Meaningless nonsense without detail.

I explain how corroboration with an example.

I asked how witnesses would know about Fplo and you state the above.

The Jewish witnesses would not know about the Nazi documents. That means they are independent sources of evidence.
Corroboration is at its strongest, when the evidence is from different, independent sources. When a Jewish witness states the same thing as a Nazi document, that is two independent sources of evidence that agree, which is strong corroboration.

It is clear people were shipped out en masse. You have no knowledge where they went to, neither do your witnesses, stuff is made up, concocted theories of ineptitude.

How do you know that? Where is your evidence?

There are documents that also record mass transports

I have asked for these many times. Shipping people out from say a ghetto is not the same as assuming the same transport took them to some place of death. The witnesses have assumed this, this was the rumour. That is all we are hearing.

I am not assuming they went to TII, I am being led by the corroborating evidence they went to TII. The evidence determines my conclusion. The witness who worked at TII did not assume they worked there!

This is pure waffle Nessie. The mass transports away from ghettos are fully documented. The assumption they went to instant death to Treblinka is in contention. The Fplo documents in existence attest to this. Corroborated liars is called conspiracy; reflect on this.

[bombsaway]

As mentioned to Bombsaway the distance to the junction and hence the Malkinia camp is about 800m. A few years ago I went on a steam train went 900m, the darn thing took 15 minutes, going slow as they do going over highways, bridges etc. Took twenty minutes going back. This was my experience as a kid when steam trains were regular. They were slow. Maybe just our steam engines.

I suspect that due to the slow speed of the train the 800m to Malkinia camp could be done in 7 minutes. Evidence is pointing in that direction.

It is clear in the above post that the car travelling from Malkinia station to Treblinka is travelling a comfortable 50 km/h.

Can you show me on the map exactly? Google maps. I am wondering where you position the camp in Malkinia called Treblinka.

[Nessie]

.....
This is pure waffle Nessie.

How so? You make lots of unevidenced accusations. It is part of your general lack of a need for evidence, which leads you to make so many mistakes.

The mass transports away from ghettos are fully documented.

Including the destination of those transports. A huge number went to only three small camps, Sobibor, Belzec and TII.

The assumption they went to instant death to Treblinka is in contention.

It is not an assumption, it is evidenced.

The Fplo documents in existence attest to this.

They are part of the evidence.

Corroborated liars is called conspiracy; reflect on this.

You have no evidence of a conspiracy. There was no reason for local Poles, Jews and Nazis to conspire together. Reflect on that.

[Nazgul]

How so? You make lots of unevidenced accusations. It is part of your general lack of a need for evidence, which leads you to make so many mistakes.

No substance, does not read the evidence presented but carries on waffling about evidence regardless.

Including the destination of those transports. A huge number went to only three small camps, Sobibor, Belzec and TII.

Repeating the narrative which everyone here knows add nothing to the discussion on anything. It just confirms a closed mind on the issues which we find vexing.

It is not an assumption, it is evidenced.

No hard evidence. What evidence is presented can be explained by more rational thinking. All the ash etc can be explained by those deaths on the transports.

They are part of the evidence.

The only Fplo documents in existence are about three or four. They all have extended stops as previously mentioned. They are evidence for stops at Jewish Labour Camps.

You have no evidence of a conspiracy. There was no reason for local Poles, Jews and Nazis to conspire together. Reflect on that.

Much of the evidence from camps comes from agents, working for propagandist intelligence organizations for strategic purposes.
In WWI as in WWII 'Atrocity propaganda exploiting sensational stories of rape, mutilation, and wanton murder of prisoners by the Germans filled the Allied press. The German and the Austro-Hungarian soldiers were depicted as inhumane savages, and their barbarity was emphasized as a way to provide justification for the war. link

[Nazgul]

Can you show me on the map exactly? Google maps. I am wondering where you position the camp in Malkinia called Treblinka.

The transit camp was located close to the top reddish tear drop in the image below. This camp is directly north of the Treblinka railway station.

To be fair this is well within walking distance of the camp and no trains needed. In fact there is no railway to this transit camp.


The Holocaust Encyclopedia puts the Treblinka camp NW 4 km. From where the Treblinka station was, 4km NW was marked out until it reaches the current railway line to Warsaw. this is the end of the yellow line. This fits in with Wierniks first map that places Treblinka next to and south of the Warsaw-Bialystok trunk line.

Here is Wierniks first map. He has North, NE to his camp location. This is an issue as the railway runs directly east to west, with north being directly straight up.


Potential location on Google Earth.



Being out in compass direction is common in the maps of the Treblinka camps. As you may well know, the current location called TII lay alongside the Malkinia - Siedlce railway line. This used to run in a North- South direction where the camp is. The following map of Treblinka II site has north pointing towards the East; this is entirely the wrong map orientation.


The error is repeated in other maps, perhaps copied from the first. These maps were apparently drawn by professional cartographer or surveyor; I find it hard to believe that a professional could make such an amateurish mistake.

Below is a modern map. Note the error is corrected.



I realise that both maps are on slightly different angles, so the Serveyors map was orientated 28 degrees so that the spur line is running close to parallel to each in both maps. The rotated image is below to compare and contrast the position North in both maps. The bottom map does correspond with the current location of TII but the surveyors maps do not. Either the surveyor is not worth the salt he is paid to, or he has surveyed another area.




North is still well out. If surveyors can get it wrong, I am sure Wiernik could as well.

Keep in mind that just south of the current TII was purported to be the extermination camp of Kosow Podlaski. This was confirmed by the elders of the village of Wolka Okraglik. Here is the CIA entry.



The early CIA had the following entry for the Treblinka camps; they thought Malkinia was a correctional centre.


From this the current TII, is the Judenlager, called a kz in the entry. TIII has been placed in the Czerwony bor forest. This needs more investigation.

"The Treblinka-III camp was listed as "the death camp" for the Jews and was reported to be located at Czerwony Bor. As late as in 1944, its existence was also mentioned in the renowned wartime publication Ghetto Speaks published in New York (Encl. 6). The remote Czerwony Bor (Red Forest) was (and is) located forty kilometers north of the Treblinka-I and Treblinka-II camps. Additional documents regarding Treblinka-III are available from the Polish Historical Society in the USA (tel. 203--325--1079) and archives of the Polish Underground Study Trust in London (tel. 011-4481-992-6057)."...John Demjanjuk amicus curiae

Czerwony bor is now the site of a current penal institution.

[bombsaway]

To be fair this is well within walking distance of the camp and no trains needed. In fact there is no railway to this transit camp.

Then why is it listed in the train document as a stop?

[Nazgul]

To be fair this is well within walking distance of the camp and no trains needed. In fact there is no railway to this transit camp.

Then why is it listed in the train document as a stop?

The train stops at the Malkinia station, which is also a major railway junction, tracks going in three directions. People can walk to the camp. What is of interest mainly to me is the location of this Treblinka on the Warsaw track. Two Jews say that they were at the transit camp and put on a transport to Auschwitz.

[Nessie]

Witness speak to TII having a station inside the camp. They are not talking about the Malkinia camp people had to walk to.