The Pyres of Dresden

[Stubble]

So, first it was 'they used gasoline'.

Then it became, 'they used gasoline and scrub brush'.

Then it became 'they used gasoline'.

Now it is, 'they used lighter fluid'...

Bombsaway, what, exactly, do you think happened here? Was it 'gasoline' or did the nazis go up to aldi's and pick up a couple bottles of starter fluid?


Bombsaway;
'I can admit when I'm wrong'

Also Bombsaway;
Doesn't...

[bombsaway]

So, first it was 'they used gasoline'.

Then it became, 'they used gasoline and scrub brush'.

Then it became 'they used gasoline'.

Now it is, 'they used lighter fluid'...

Bombsaway, what, exactly, do you think happened here? Was it 'gasoline' or did the nazis go up to aldi's and pick up a couple bottles of starter fluid?


Bombsaway;
'I can admit when I'm wrong'

Also Bombsaway;
Doesn't...

I think they used gasoline just like the witness testimonies say. It's just an odd detail for the testimonies to add if wood was really used exclusively. It's possible the witnesses mistook gasoline for some other flammable liquid.

I would assume they pre soaked or hosed some on during the incineration like you see in the video.

[Stubble]

You posted a video of someone dumping gasoline on a fire?

Where?

Odd to lean on something written in the 50's or later over a, you know, picture, showing, wood...

Come to think of it, stick a fork in it, thread's done:

Irving's description implies gasoline was significant here, more so , than wood and straw.

Huh? The direct quote of Irving that you posted has "bundles" of wood and straw on the bottom with additional straw in the middle. That is substantially more than mere "gallons" of gasoline. The photos confirm this.

Moreover, the gasoline was merely used to start the fire. It wasn't added over time, as it would need to be to contribute meaningfully to cremation.

I don't see much wood or straw in the photos. I don't see any "cords" or huge piles of wood anywhere around that revisionists would deem necessary. The wood underneath the pyres seems to be planked, etc, meaning it just came from wreckage.

I agree that there is not enough wood pictured for cremation, but wood actually does appear in the photos, unlike gasoline. As you point out, this problem was remedied by pulling more scrap wood from the surrounding ruins.

Excellent post Wetzelrad

[Archie]

I don't think they were completely cremated though Fangers, this was a sanitary measure. Simple desiccation was the goal, if we're being honest.

There are exactly 0 pictures of any German mass cremation pyre 'burned to ash'...

And for the AR camps Holocaust promoters must claim that the cremation was very thorough (at least for the vast majority of the bodies). They can't change the story to partial cremation because that would mean much less body mass reduction, i.e., much greater volume of physical remains at the camps.

[Stubble]

I don't think they were completely cremated though Fangers, this was a sanitary measure. Simple desiccation was the goal, if we're being honest.

There are exactly 0 pictures of any German mass cremation pyre 'burned to ash'...

And for the AR camps Holocaust promoters must claim that the cremation was very thorough (at least for the vast majority of the bodies). They can't change the story to partial cremation because that would mean much less body mass reduction, i.e., much greater volume of physical remains at the camps.

True, and this makes Kola's study even more of a tar baby.

[bombsaway]

You posted a video of someone dumping gasoline on a fire?

Where?

Odd to lean on something written in the 50's or later over a, you know, picture, showing, wood...

Come to think of it, stick a fork in it, thread's done:

Irving's description implies gasoline was significant here, more so , than wood and straw.

Huh? The direct quote of Irving that you posted has "bundles" of wood and straw on the bottom with additional straw in the middle. That is substantially more than mere "gallons" of gasoline. The photos confirm this.

Moreover, the gasoline was merely used to start the fire. It wasn't added over time, as it would need to be to contribute meaningfully to cremation.

I don't see much wood or straw in the photos. I don't see any "cords" or huge piles of wood anywhere around that revisionists would deem necessary. The wood underneath the pyres seems to be planked, etc, meaning it just came from wreckage.

I agree that there is not enough wood pictured for cremation, but wood actually does appear in the photos, unlike gasoline. As you point out, this problem was remedied by pulling more scrap wood from the surrounding ruins.

Excellent post Wetzelrad

This is gasoline

It's doable, and maybe diesel was used, which doesn't generate as much explosive force. Witnesses maybe got it confused.

One thing you notice is that there isn't a lot of room for wood under the grates. It also seems like it's just debris down there. Callafangers suggest that was pushed out and replaced but there's no piles of that anywhere in the photos. Either liquid fuels played a role or the fuel requirements to carry something like this out are much much lower than you believe.

I don't think they were completely cremated though Fangers, this was a sanitary measure. Simple desiccation was the goal, if we're being honest.

There are exactly 0 pictures of any German mass cremation pyre 'burned to ash'...

And for the AR camps Holocaust promoters must claim that the cremation was very thorough (at least for the vast majority of the bodies). They can't change the story to partial cremation because that would mean much less body mass reduction, i.e., much greater volume of physical remains at the camps.

This is ridiculous lol. Kola notes thousands of cubic meters of crematory content. His descriptions are vague enough (we don't know the purity of the layers) that one could plausibly say it's the remains of millions, barring any other context.

[Stubble]

See, Bombsaway, here's one thing, you absolutely do not respect safety. You are very cavalier about all things holocaust.

'Doable'...

Look at my second post in this thread. Also, can you respect that the scale you are talking about is significantly different from a guy pouring a solo cup on a faggot or two?

This is up there with 'of course they gassed people with hydrogen cyanide in occupied buildings, why wouldn't they?'...You have absolutely 0 respect for the problem of safety with regard to the incredibly dangerous things put forward.

Look, safety absolutely can be a matter of life and death, and I doubt the nazis were as cavalier as you about it...

Regarding the Kola study, he found 'soft tissue' 'hair' etc during the course of his study. That would indicate less than complete cremation. Other digs found 'skulls' 'long bones' 'rotting body parts in various states of decay' etc. This also indicates less than complete cremation as well as a lack of intentional obliteration of remains.

[bombsaway]

See, Bombsaway, here's one thing, you absolutely do not respect safety. You are very cavalier about all things holocaust.

'Doable'...

Look at my second post in this thread. Also, can you respect that the scale you are talking about is significantly different from a guy pouring a solo cup on a faggot or two?

This is up there with 'of course they gassed people with hydrogen cyanide in occupied buildings, why wouldn't they?'...You have absolutely 0 respect for the problem of safety with regard to the incredibly dangerous things put forward.

Look, safety absolutely can be a matter of life and death, and I doubt the nazis were as cavalier as you about it...

Regarding the Kola study, he found 'soft tissue' 'hair' etc during the course of his study. That would indicate less than complete cremation. Other digs found 'skulls' 'long bones' 'rotting body parts in various states of decay' etc. This also indicates less than complete cremation as well as a lack of intentional obliteration of remains.

I don't think the Germans would have minded endangering slave laborers (and Jews at the death camps) or POWs to do this if there were other advantages to it.

Yes I would agree with the "incomplete" cremation thing based on all the evidence. Dresden was also likely an example of this.

[Stubble]

See, Bombsaway, here's one thing, you absolutely do not respect safety. You are very cavalier about all things holocaust.

'Doable'...

Look at my second post in this thread. Also, can you respect that the scale you are talking about is significantly different from a guy pouring a solo cup on a faggot or two?

This is up there with 'of course they gassed people with hydrogen cyanide in occupied buildings, why wouldn't they?'...You have absolutely 0 respect for the problem of safety with regard to the incredibly dangerous things put forward.

Look, safety absolutely can be a matter of life and death, and I doubt the nazis were as cavalier as you about it...

Regarding the Kola study, he found 'soft tissue' 'hair' etc during the course of his study. That would indicate less than complete cremation. Other digs found 'skulls' 'long bones' 'rotting body parts in various states of decay' etc. This also indicates less than complete cremation as well as a lack of intentional obliteration of remains.

Yes I would agree with the "incomplete" cremation thing based on all the evidence. Dresden was also likely an example of this.

Thank you, now, if you would refrain from backsliding...

So far as danger just to 'slave laborers', there were, staff in the building.

I believe Wirths had an office in Krema II, did he not?

This was an occupied building.

Krema I was behind the SS hospital and yards from the Kommandant's house...

[bombsaway]

See, Bombsaway, here's one thing, you absolutely do not respect safety. You are very cavalier about all things holocaust.

'Doable'...

Look at my second post in this thread. Also, can you respect that the scale you are talking about is significantly different from a guy pouring a solo cup on a faggot or two?

This is up there with 'of course they gassed people with hydrogen cyanide in occupied buildings, why wouldn't they?'...You have absolutely 0 respect for the problem of safety with regard to the incredibly dangerous things put forward.

Look, safety absolutely can be a matter of life and death, and I doubt the nazis were as cavalier as you about it...

Regarding the Kola study, he found 'soft tissue' 'hair' etc during the course of his study. That would indicate less than complete cremation. Other digs found 'skulls' 'long bones' 'rotting body parts in various states of decay' etc. This also indicates less than complete cremation as well as a lack of intentional obliteration of remains.

Yes I would agree with the "incomplete" cremation thing based on all the evidence. Dresden was also likely an example of this.

Thank you, now, if you would refrain from backsliding...

So far as danger just to 'slave laborers', there were, staff in the building.

I believe Wirths had an office in Krema II, did he not?

This was an occupied building.

Krema I was behind the SS hospital and yards from the Kommandant's house...

In the orthodox narrative, what should Wirths have been afraid of?

[Archie]

You posted a video of someone dumping gasoline on a fire?

Where?

Odd to lean on something written in the 50's or later over a, you know, picture, showing, wood...

Come to think of it, stick a fork in it, thread's done:

Huh? The direct quote of Irving that you posted has "bundles" of wood and straw on the bottom with additional straw in the middle. That is substantially more than mere "gallons" of gasoline. The photos confirm this.

Moreover, the gasoline was merely used to start the fire. It wasn't added over time, as it would need to be to contribute meaningfully to cremation.



I agree that there is not enough wood pictured for cremation, but wood actually does appear in the photos, unlike gasoline. As you point out, this problem was remedied by pulling more scrap wood from the surrounding ruins.

Excellent post Wetzelrad

This is gasoline

It's doable, and maybe diesel was used, which doesn't generate as much explosive force. Witnesses maybe got it confused.

One thing you notice is that there isn't a lot of room for wood under the grates. It also seems like it's just debris down there. Callafangers suggest that was pushed out and replaced but there's no piles of that anywhere in the photos. Either liquid fuels played a role or the fuel requirements to carry something like this out are much much lower than you believe.

I don't think they were completely cremated though Fangers, this was a sanitary measure. Simple desiccation was the goal, if we're being honest.

There are exactly 0 pictures of any German mass cremation pyre 'burned to ash'...

And for the AR camps Holocaust promoters must claim that the cremation was very thorough (at least for the vast majority of the bodies). They can't change the story to partial cremation because that would mean much less body mass reduction, i.e., much greater volume of physical remains at the camps.

This is ridiculous lol. Kola notes thousands of cubic meters of crematory content. His descriptions are vague enough (we don't know the purity of the layers) that one could plausibly say it's the remains of millions, barring any other context.

Complete cremation reduces body mass by something like 95%. The whole bodies are a huge problem for you because that's something like 25,000,000 kg of body mass. With complete cremation this would reduce that to something perhaps in the neighborhood of 1,000,000 kg which would be harder to falsify. Remember that your side has never even pretended to have proof for these bodies (paging Dr. Keen!). You are merely trying to argue (without much success) that your story isn't completely laughable and impossible. And that hinges very crucially on all of that body mass going up in smoke.

If you start arguing for partial cremation with liquid fuels and minimal wood, then the expected body mass remaining is much greater. Not only that, but the contents of the graves would be qualitatively different. Instead of vague reports of "ash," there would be lots of whole bones, etc.

"one could plausibly say it's the remains of millions"

Millions! Please be serious.

[bombsaway]

You posted a video of someone dumping gasoline on a fire?

Where?

Odd to lean on something written in the 50's or later over a, you know, picture, showing, wood...

Come to think of it, stick a fork in it, thread's done:



Excellent post Wetzelrad

This is gasoline

It's doable, and maybe diesel was used, which doesn't generate as much explosive force. Witnesses maybe got it confused.

One thing you notice is that there isn't a lot of room for wood under the grates. It also seems like it's just debris down there. Callafangers suggest that was pushed out and replaced but there's no piles of that anywhere in the photos. Either liquid fuels played a role or the fuel requirements to carry something like this out are much much lower than you believe.

And for the AR camps Holocaust promoters must claim that the cremation was very thorough (at least for the vast majority of the bodies). They can't change the story to partial cremation because that would mean much less body mass reduction, i.e., much greater volume of physical remains at the camps.

This is ridiculous lol. Kola notes thousands of cubic meters of crematory content. His descriptions are vague enough (we don't know the purity of the layers) that one could plausibly say it's the remains of millions, barring any other context.

Complete cremation reduces body mass by something like 95%. The whole bodies are a huge problem for you because that's something like 25,000,000 kg of body mass. With complete cremation this would reduce that to something perhaps in the neighborhood of 1,000,000 kg which would be harder to falsify. Remember that your side has never even pretended to have proof for these bodies (paging Dr. Keen!). You are merely trying to argue (without much success) that your story isn't completely laughable and impossible. And that hinges very crucially on all of that body mass going up in smoke.

If you start arguing for partial cremation with liquid fuels and minimal wood, then the expected body mass remaining is much more greater. Not only that, but the contents of the graves would be qualitatively different. Instead of vague reports of "ash," there would be lots of whole bones, etc.

"one could plausibly say it's the remains of millions"

Millions! Please be serious.

Yes, it's reasonable to infer from Kola's descriptions there are thousands of cubic meters of crematory contents in those graves, graves half full of crematory contents.

On average full cremation yields 1 cubic inch per kg of remains, so let's say instead 4 inches were yielded by the incomplete burning

at average weight of 40 kg, that would give 160 cubic inches of remains per person. multiply this by 400k and you get 64000000, convert that to cubic meters and you get 1048.772096

I think this shows how far off you are.

[Stubble]

Bombsaway, go back to the Kola thread for your spanking, and take that comment with you.

Now, dashing 500-600 bodies with a picnic cup full of gasoline isn't going to do much. What is your delivery method, since you are STILL arguing benzin as the primary source of fuel, regardless of the smoke being white, and the hazard posed by the idea?

Or, are you no longer arguing liquid fuel as the primary as is your new pivot in the 'gasoline hack' thread?

Which is it? Was it primarily gasoline? Or no?

[Archie]

I'm now remembering why bombs got onto this whole liquid fuels kick. It's from the Kola thread.

BA assumes that wherever Kola mentions "ash" that this refers to pure human cremains unless specifically identified as wood ash. I had pointed out to him that a majority of the total ash must be wood ash. If that's the case, BA's entire argument about the ash collapses. So to have any chance of saving this, he really needs that ash to be mostly cremains. His fix was to insist (rather comically) that the Germans were able to perfectly separate the human ash from the wood ash. And then to explain the lack of wood ash (under his theory) he came up with this liquid fuels thing. I believe this is one of the main reasons he is sticking to this nonsense so stubbornly. If he concedes it, his interpretation of the Kola data is toast.

The reality of course is that Kola's report is not adequate to determine how much there is in actual human cremains. Assuming his reporting is roughly correct, there is some ash, which must necessarily be majority wood ash, and this is even further diluted with sand. Kola does not even try to estimate the amount of human ash and it is far less than BA assumes based on his fanciful assumptions. And we can be even more sure that this is the case seeing as 1) they could not have buried the whole bodies there to begin with, and 2) nor could they have realistically cremated all those bodies.

[bombsaway]

I'm now remembering why bombs got onto this whole liquid fuels kick. It's from the Kola thread.

BA assumes that wherever Kola mentions "ash" that this refers to pure human cremains unless specifically identified as wood ash. I had pointed out to him that a majority of the total ash must be wood ash. If that's the case, BA's entire argument about the ash collapses. So to have any chance of saving this, he really needs that ash to be mostly cremains. His fix was to insist (rather comically) that the Germans were able to perfectly separate the human ash from the wood ash. And then to explain the lack of wood ash (under his theory) he came up with this liquid fuels thing. I believe this is one of the main reasons he is sticking to this nonsense so stubbornly. If he concedes it, his interpretation of the Kola data is toast.

The reality of course is that Kola's report is not adequate to determine how much there is in actual human cremains. Assuming his reporting is roughly correct, there is some ash, which must necessarily be majority wood ash, and this is even further diluted with sand. Kola does not even try to estimate the amount of human ash and it is far less than BA assumes based on his fanciful assumptions. And we can be even more sure that this is the case seeing as 1) they could not have buried the whole bodies there to begin with, and 2) nor could they have realistically cremated all those bodies.

Do you know that Kola distinguishes between body ash and charcoal (wood ash) in his report? Has this been explained to you before?