The Jews Went to Work? Organization Todt

[Nazgul]

Organisation Todt was also not accommodating them in 1944.

There were other companies such as Schmelt and Hasag, who out sourced to private contractors.
(Kamienna in German sources), forced labor camp for Jews, located in the
Polish town of Skarzysko-Kamienna. The camp belonged to the German
Hasag concern. It was established in August 1942 and was liquidated on
August 1, 1944. Altogether, 25,000--30,000 Jews were brought to SkarzyskoKamienna.


IG Farben controlled Monowitz 1942–1945,

[Wahrheitssucher]

Again, there is a chronological issue with that. By the end of 1944, there were zero Jews in ghettos, as they had all closed down. Organisation Todt was also not accommodating them in 1944.

And yet hundreds (at least) of Zwangsarbeitslagers fur Juden remained in operation, as far as we know. Organization Todt was not exactly "organized" in the East. And they were not the only employer who had Jewish laborers.

Additionally, the overall scarcity of information on all of this is quite insightful -- it flies against your regular assumption that we "should have more" documentation if Jews had indeed survived at these locations. It's turning out quite clear that, no -- no, we shouldn't. Even for arrangements we know for certain existed, there is barely anything known. Even for the periods we agree that Zwangsarbeitslagers in any area were opened, minimal records of them exist at all, and we certainly cannot speak to the day-to-day operations, overall camp strength/population, etc.

This is how the Holocaust Industry has gotten away with their shenanigans for so long. The scarcity of information is obvious, given the scale and distance being considered, so it is easy to fill-in the gaps with whatever atrocity tales witnesses X, Y, and Z decide to share or invent. And once others hear of that same tale, they are presented with a choice and an opportunity of whether to deny or to confirm it. Some would assume that truth is always a priority but the nature of the war and of how information was being used at this time suggests otherwise, as does the remarkable pattern of inconsistent, impossible, or improbable claims well-known to 'Holocaust' testimony.

Yes!

This can’t be expressed enough to the genuinely curious and researching.
The absence of documentary evidence is a peculiarity. And when we KNOW that Allies captured many tons of paperwork, the absence of just the documentation regarding the wherabouts of jews is even more noteworthy.

And this is why I repeatedly point out that professional academics (i.e. paid promulgators) like Sanitycheck (Nick) and all the others have to be either:
a.) knowingly deceiving for money and career advancement, by ignoring this;
or
b.) dimwits whose confirmation bias is defined by denial.

[Callafangers]

There were other companies such as Schmelt and Hasag, who out sourced to private contractors.
(Kamienna in German sources), forced labor camp for Jews, located in the
Polish town of Skarzysko-Kamienna. The camp belonged to the German
Hasag concern. It was established in August 1942 and was liquidated on
August 1, 1944. Altogether, 25,000--30,000 Jews were brought to SkarzyskoKamienna.


IG Farben controlled Monowitz 1942–1945,

A surviving document comes from the diary of Felicja Schäftler, August 1944, following her first week at the Skarzysko-Kamienna labor camp (VEJ 11, DOK 161). Despite her tone of exaggerated despair and "just knowing" what the Germans were doing behind closed doors, she estimates some 9,000 other female inmates [still!] in the camp by this time. A footnote indicates that Schäftler was among 1,200 others sometime after this diary was written who were evacuated West to Leipzig as the Soviets approached (into 1945). Are we to believe that such a continuation of labor followed by non-homicidal evacuations could take place in the West but that only total extermination occurred conveniently in places where the Iron Curtain fell?

[Callafangers]

And this is why I repeatedly point out that professional academics (i.e. paid promulgators) like Sanitycheck (Nick) and all the others have to be either:
a.) knowingly deceiving for money and career advancement, by ignoring this;
or
b.) dimwits whose confirmation bias is defined by denial.

I give Nick a lot more credit than this. I think he's at least had to tacitly concede that the imbalance of power when it comes to research and publication on this debate is a significant factor in the actual or perceived credibility of his position. He's also an intelligent, knowledgeable researcher and accomplished historian who I often feel privileged to have join us here. That said, he has obvious professional, moral, financial, and social motives to stay on the path he is on, regardless of any revelations or legitimate challenges to the Holocaust narrative that might come his way. So, it's kind of like a stalemate. He is not dissuaded by massive logical gaps in the reasoning of his position and its uncritical acceptance of rumor and defamatory storytelling, and we are no more convinced of the crimes that these motivated storytellers allege. I think the most we can do is take a collaborative approach to just getting to the bottom of these claims/events in history, since we can all at least agree it is a topic we find interesting.

I have these things to say about Nick because I do think he seeks to meaningfully contribute to a broader understanding of the history, even if [l would argue] he is mistaken in his interpretations. I cannot say the same about ConfusedJew or perhaps certain others here, as I have seen them behave in ways that do not come off as sincere or without particular motives.

[Stubble]

Again, there is a chronological issue with that. By the end of 1944, there were zero Jews in ghettos, as they had all closed down. Organisation Todt was also not accommodating them in 1944.

And yet hundreds (at least) of Zwangsarbeitslagers fur Juden remained in operation, as far as we know. Organization Todt was not exactly "organized" in the East. And they were not the only employer who had Jewish laborers.

Additionally, the overall scarcity of information on all of this is quite insightful -- it flies against your regular assumption that we "should have more" documentation if Jews had indeed survived at these locations. It's turning out quite clear that, no -- no, we shouldn't. Even for arrangements we know for certain existed, there is barely anything known. Even for the periods we agree that Zwangsarbeitslagers in any area were opened, minimal records of them exist at all, and we certainly cannot speak to the day-to-day operations, overall camp strength/population, etc.

This is how the Holocaust Industry has gotten away with their shenanigans for so long. The scarcity of information is obvious, given the scale and distance being considered, so it is easy to fill-in the gaps with whatever atrocity tales witnesses X, Y, and Z decide to share or invent. And once others hear of that same tale, they are presented with a choice and an opportunity of whether to deny or to confirm it. Some would assume that truth is always a priority but the nature of the war and of how information was being used at this time suggests otherwise, as does the remarkable pattern of inconsistent, impossible, or improbable claims well-known to 'Holocaust' testimony.

Yes!

This can’t be expressed enough to the genuinely curious and researching.
The absence of documentary evidence is a peculiarity. And when we KNOW that Allies captured many tons of paperwork, the absence of just the documentation regarding the wherabouts of jews is even more noteworthy.

And this is why I repeatedly point out that professional academics (i.e. paid promulgators) like Sanitycheck (Nick) and all the others have to be either:
a.) knowingly deceiving for money and career advancement, by ignoring this;
or
b.) dimwits whose confirmation bias is defined by denial.

I present here one of the more complete and condensed collections of OT documents;

https://collections.arolsen-archives.or ... -0_9015200

Organisation Todt, activities of individual Einsatzgruppen and site managements. Organization, supply, general plans/layouts, measures and general orders

I've also got some microfilm of communications from the various persons involved that I am going through, but I figured this was a good time to share this with the forum here and now.

I shared the table of contents in the research sub forum.

viewtopic.php?t=448

Here are some others;

https://catalog.archives.gov/search-wit ... naId%3Aasc

https://catalog.archives.gov/search-within/7773935

Regarding SanityCheck, I'm still trying to get a solid read on the guy. We look at the same things and see a different picture, be it the 'operation harvest festival' propaganda, or antiterrorism operations in the swamp. That doesn't matter much though. He shared a bit of a jewel with me right here;

https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... d.html?m=1

And I thank him for it.

Nick, thank you again for that link. I retract some of the things I have said about that blog in the past. Not all, but some.

[Nessie]

Again, there is a chronological issue with that. By the end of 1944, there were zero Jews in ghettos, as they had all closed down. Organisation Todt was also not accommodating them in 1944.

And yet hundreds (at least) of Zwangsarbeitslagers fur Juden remained in operation, as far as we know. Organization Todt was not exactly "organized" in the East. And they were not the only employer who had Jewish laborers.

Additionally, the overall scarcity of information on all of this is quite insightful -- it flies against your regular assumption that we "should have more" documentation if Jews had indeed survived at these locations. It's turning out quite clear that, no -- no, we shouldn't. Even for arrangements we know for certain existed, there is barely anything known. Even for the periods we agree that Zwangsarbeitslagers in any area were opened, minimal records of them exist at all, and we certainly cannot speak to the day-to-day operations, overall camp strength/population, etc.

This is how the Holocaust Industry has gotten away with their shenanigans for so long. The scarcity of information is obvious, given the scale and distance being considered, so it is easy to fill-in the gaps with whatever atrocity tales witnesses X, Y, and Z decide to share or invent. And once others hear of that same tale, they are presented with a choice and an opportunity of whether to deny or to confirm it. Some would assume that truth is always a priority but the nature of the war and of how information was being used at this time suggests otherwise, as does the remarkable pattern of inconsistent, impossible, or improbable claims well-known to 'Holocaust' testimony.

There are a lot of documents relating to OT at Arolsen.

https://collections.arolsen-archives.or ... ve/2-2-3-0

For example,

https://collections.arolsen-archives.org/en/archive/2-2

"Documents on the Registration of Foreigners and the Employment of Forced Laborers, 1939 - 1945
Reference Code DE ITS 2.2 Number of documents 4490996"

Why would OT destroy documents that proved they were accommodating and employing millions of Jews, that the Nazis were being accused of murdering? How come you cannot find evidence of millions of Jews, still alive in 1944, amongst the nearly 4.5 million worker registration documents that survived?

[Nessie]

Organisation Todt was an infrastructure construction company, that built many new roads.

Ah, were they tailors and shoemakers as well?

Wannsee reported a policy to work Jews till they died. OT worked Jews till they died.

[Callafangers]

Wannsee reported a policy to work Jews till they died. OT worked Jews till they died.

Please provide the exact excerpt where Wannsee uses the word "died" [in German, of course].

[Nessie]

The absence of documentary evidence is a peculiarity...

Putting aside that Arolsen has a lot of OT documentation in its archives, the absence of documentary evidence is most pronounced, in relation to so-called revisionist claims that millions of Jews were resettled. Other examples of no documents are mass transports back out of the AR camps, or documents recording camp populations in late 1944 into 1945, that show millions of Jews being accommodated.

It is not just documentary evidence that is lacking. There is also a lack of eyewitness, physical and circumstantial evidence for millions of Jews in camps in 1944-5.

[Callafangers]

Why would OT destroy documents that proved they were accommodating and employing millions of Jews, that the Nazis were being accused of murdering? How come you cannot find evidence of millions of Jews, still alive in 1944, amongst the nearly 4.5 million worker registration documents that survived?

Germany's strategy on propaganda was never defensive -- Goebbels makes this much clear in his diary. Their approach was secrecy in some areas, and an offensive approach to propaganda, i.e. highlighting the crimes of the Allies (e.g. Katyn, British colonial crimes, etc.).

I have already shared with you proof that the camp strengths and much of anything about these camps at all was not being recorded, due to absent administrative structure (not to mention Soviet invasion and an "Iron Curtain" to boot).

4.5 million documents surviving does not mean there were not countless other events that were never documented or whose documents should/could not have survived.

Absence of evidence does not equate to evidence of absence, especially when there is evidence of a reason for absence (already provided).

[Nessie]

Wannsee reported a policy to work Jews till they died. OT worked Jews till they died.

Please provide the exact excerpt where Wannsee uses the word "died" [in German, of course].

I do not have a German version. The translations I can find are; "Able-bodied Jews, separated according to sex, will be taken in large work columns to these areas for work on roads, in the course of which action doubtless a large portion will be eliminated by natural causes." and "In large (labor) columns, with the sexes separated, Jews capable of work will be moved into these areas as they build roads, during which a large proportion will no doubt drop out through natural reduction."

[Callafangers]

I do not have a German version. The translations I can find are; "Able-bodied Jews, separated according to sex, will be taken in large work columns to these areas for work on roads, in the course of which action doubtless a large portion will be eliminated by natural causes." and "In large (labor) columns, with the sexes separated, Jews capable of work will be moved into these areas as they build roads, during which a large proportion will no doubt drop out through natural reduction."

Yes -- the discussion is about labor. The 'dropping out' refers to dropping out of the workforce. Only with "Holocaust goggles" can someone look at this language and think, 'they mean murder!'.

[Nessie]

Why would OT destroy documents that proved they were accommodating and employing millions of Jews, that the Nazis were being accused of murdering? How come you cannot find evidence of millions of Jews, still alive in 1944, amongst the nearly 4.5 million worker registration documents that survived?

Germany's strategy on propaganda was never defensive -- Goebbels makes this much clear in his diary. Their approach was secrecy in some areas, and an offensive approach to propaganda, i.e. highlighting the crimes of the Allies (e.g. Katyn, British colonial crimes, etc.).

I have already shared with you proof that the camp strengths and much of anything about these camps at all was not being recorded, due to absent administrative structure (not to mention Soviet invasion and an "Iron Curtain" to boot).

4.5 million documents surviving does not mean there were not countless other events that were never documented or whose documents should/could not have survived.

Absence of evidence does not equate to evidence of absence, especially when there is evidence of a reason for absence (already provided).

You are trying to excuse your inability to evidence millions of Jews working for OT in 1944. Your suggestion is that there was a wholesale destruction of evidence by the Allies, without any Nazi or OT personnel attempting to prevent that, or coming forward as a witness, or any circumstantial evidence, to prove the conspiracy.

[Nessie]

I do not have a German version. The translations I can find are; "Able-bodied Jews, separated according to sex, will be taken in large work columns to these areas for work on roads, in the course of which action doubtless a large portion will be eliminated by natural causes." and "In large (labor) columns, with the sexes separated, Jews capable of work will be moved into these areas as they build roads, during which a large proportion will no doubt drop out through natural reduction."

Yes -- the discussion is about labor. The 'dropping out' refers to dropping out of the workforce. Only with "Holocaust goggles" can someone look at this language and think, 'they mean murder!'.

By "Holocaust goggles" you mean evidence. The reason why the phrasing used in the minutes is interpreted as meaning death, is because of the evidence of deaths. You ignore the evidence, and come up with unsupported interpretations.

[Callafangers]

You are trying to excuse your inability to evidence millions of Jews working for OT in 1944. Your suggestion is that there was a wholesale destruction of evidence by the Allies, without any Nazi or OT personnel attempting to prevent that, or coming forward as a witness, or any circumstantial evidence, to prove the conspiracy.

All signs suggest there was definitely "wholesale destruction" of evidence by the Allies whom went as far as to implement 'denazification' campaigns.

Imagine if you and I got into a personal feud, Nessie, and I went around to all your friends and neighbors shoving propaganda down their throats in my "de-Nessiefication campaign" . Do you think this wouldn't suggest a motive for me to also destroy documents that you might want to keep in your defense?

Motive, means, opportunity -- it is all there for the Allies with regard to exonerating German documents.

More importantly, though, you have misrepresented my previous argument -- the issue is that the documentation was typically missing to begin with. There are virtually NO documents on Zwangsarbeitslager camp strengths, especially in the Eastern territories where there was also an absence of OBL administrative units, making documentation minimal at best. Have you read none of my earlier posts on this thread? I really spelled it out.