Holocaust Revisionism vs. Flat-Earth Theory

[Wahrheitssucher]

You don't want to look in the mirror. Orthodoxy fears no such self reflection, we'll engage with you on any topic…

The level of denial is bordering on insane!

Orthodoxy fears fair and open debate.
HolyH orthodoxy fears scientific investigation.
It fears anyone publically questioning it or just saying they don’t believe its core components!

Or why else does it criminalise any type of genuine revision?

Why does it persecute old ladies like Ursula Haverbeck, Alison Chabloz and Monika Schaefer for ‘thought crimes’?

Why was Ernst Zündel arrested, held in solitary confinement under secret charges then deported and immediately arrested again?

Why was Vincent Reynoard persecuted, arrested, criminalised and imprisoned?
You people don’t answer such questions. CJ routinely avoids all questions put to him. So I’ll answer that question:

“In 1991, Reynouard was convicted of distributing Holocaust denial [revision] literature. Reynouard had given high school students materials "questioning the existence of the gas chambers".”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincent_R ... onvictions

See that? For “questioning the existence of the gas chambers”.

This denial of obvious reality from bombsaway proves that the problem is really not about any lack of convincing and credible evidence refuting the compulsory holyH belief-system. It’s about psychological issues. Bombsaway must have psychological issues to claim the complete opposite of reality with such delusional conviction.

[Nessie]

...

Anecdotally from my own life, the Holocaust is collapsing at freefall speed. While this is anecdotal, its supported by the polls you have been shown and the article from 2014 (!) that was given to you. It's also supported by people like Nessie who say things like they debate Holocaust deniers / nazis on Twitter all day**, and people like Jonathan Greenblatt who won't stop blathering about antisemitism.

...

X and other social media platforms, have allowed and enabled all conspiracy theories, to expand, by bringing them to a larger audience. That does not therefore mean any of them are actually winning through. The earth will never be flat, no matter many people want, or think it to be. We may regress, back to when the consensus was that everything revolved around the world, but that does not mean the earth has become the centre of the universe.

All you have done, is seen there are more people like you, who believe in Holocaust denier tropes, such as wooden doors cannot be made gas tight and that only 271k died in the camps. Whilst the lack of critical thinking skills is worrying, those beliefs do not threaten the actual history of the Holocaust.

[Keen]

those beliefs do not threaten the actual history of the Holocaust.

But what does threaten the holohoax, is the legally established, irrefutable truth:

https://thisisaboutscience.com/

[Wahrheitssucher]

.
COPERNICUS AND GALILEO versus THE ESTABLISHMENT’s FLAT-EARTH
It was Copernicus and Galileo who were proven to be right yet who had to battle against entrenched, unreasonable attitudes of the establishment and majority view.

It was Copernicus and Galileo who realised the reality by GOING AGAINST the consensus view and using scientific tests, evaluation and critical observation.

It was Galileo who was silenced, punished, imprisoned and forced to disown empirical reality to appease the religious sensibilities of irrational, ignorant ‘true-believers’.

It was those who published scientific research proving a helio-centric solar system whose books were outlawed and banned.

It was religious people who ostrich-like avoided scientific reality because it upset their religious belief in an unscientific, traditional belief-system based on anecdotal, eye-witness’ accounts that couldn’t be questioned of jews like Moses, Elijah, St.Paul, St. Luke, etc., and a world that had “four corners”.

Isaiah 11:12 — "And gather the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth."
Revelation 7:1 — "After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth."
Ezekiel 7:2 — "An end! The end has come upon the four corners of the land."
Psalms 74:17 — “You laid out the four corners of the earth, shaped the seasons of summer and winter”.

—————————————-
It is actually HOLOCAUST TRUE-BELIEVERS who represent the new ‘FLAT EARTHERS’
Here at CODOH we have three people pretty much arguing that the majority view is always right.
Yeah, sure.
That was pretty much the argument used against Galileo.

One of these three true-believers is a person calling himself a ‘confused jew’ who refuses to read science-based refutations of his traditional, consensus belief-system.

It is HOLOCAUST TRUE-BELIEVERS who PUNISH THOSE WHO REFUTE THEIR QUASI-RELIGIOUS HOLYHOAX BELIEFS.
The great irony here is that it is those who are steadfast believers of the WW2 mass-gassing allegation (i.e.core component of ‘the holocaust’) who punish and persecute anyone who exposes the falsity of their quasi-religious belief-system.
Ermmmm… pretty much exactly like the flat-earthers did to Galileo.

Orthodoxy has ALWAYS “feared” science-based conclusions if they refute erroneous beliefs that are deeply institutionalised.
Accusing revisionists of being equivalent to flat-earthers is: 1.) an ad hominem fallacy, based on 2.) rather idiotic argumentum ad populum fallacious reasoning.

[bombsaway]

You don't want to look in the mirror. Orthodoxy fears no such self reflection, we'll engage with you on any topic…

The level of denial is bordering on insane!

Orthodoxy fears fair and open debate.
HolyH orthodoxy fears scientific investigation.
It fears anyone publically questioning it or just saying they don’t believe its core components!

Or why else does it criminalise any type of genuine revision?

Why does it persecute old ladies like Ursula Haverbeck, Alison Chabloz and Monika Schaefer for ‘thought crimes’?

Why was Ernst Zündel arrested, held in solitary confinement under secret charges then deported and immediately arrested again?

Why was Vincent Reynoard persecuted, arrested, criminalised and imprisoned?
You people don’t answer such questions. CJ routinely avoids all questions put to him. So I’ll answer that question:

“In 1991, Reynouard was convicted of distributing Holocaust denial [revision] literature. Reynouard had given high school students materials "questioning the existence of the gas chambers".”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincent_R ... onvictions

See that? For “questioning the existence of the gas chambers”.

This denial of obvious reality from bombsaway proves that the problem is really not about any lack of convincing and credible evidence refuting the compulsory holyH belief-system. It’s about psychological issues. Bombsaway must have psychological issues to claim the complete opposite of reality with such delusional conviction.

Well let me clarify, I don't fear any topic. There are some that I'm not quite qualified about, like chemistry, but resettlement or the existence of conspiracies are historical questions, which everyone here should be able to undertake. But they don't (see this thread).

[ConfusedJew]

It would be a good idea to abandon this fools' errand of chasing public opinion to uphold the merits of the Holocaust. Firstly, you used this as a get-out-of-jail card for your bet when (i assume) you realised you need the pellets to be evacuated immediately from the room and that the difference matters; de facto offsetting the lack of care to "the public at large" is unverifiable and lazy. I still consider you as having lost that bet and whilst I don't particularly want or need your money, i would have pledged half to the upkeep of this forum and this past week has shown that that would be money well spent. And secondly, even when faced with examples of people at scale rejecting the Holocaust, it's just unreliable because they are "breezing through it".

We never made a bet and the bet that I proposed was very different from what you think I proposed.

I have not been able to figure out the exact logistics of the dispensation and removal of the Zyklon B gas but I haven't seen any strong evidence (in my opinion) to suggest that it was impossible.

I haven't read through every single one of the eyewitness reports in their original format but it seems like it isn't clear exactly how it worked. In my judgment, the fact that the testimonies don't go into that level of detail does not undermine the entire validity of the testimonies on an individual basis, let alone the entire population.

The fact that you think there ever was a bet and that you won something, suggests to me that you aren't serious. If you want to actually be serious, go back and look at the original conversation to show me there was a tangible bet.

I'm not a huge fan of polls, there's a huge variation in responses based on how you ask the question, how you sample the population, in what order you present things etc.

Anecdotally from my own life, the Holocaust is collapsing at freefall speed. While this is anecdotal, it's supported by the polls you have been shown and the article from 2014 (!) that was given to you. It's also supported by people like Nessie who say things like they debate Holocaust deniers / nazis on Twitter all day**, and people like Jonathan Greenblatt who won't stop blathering about antisemitism.

I have never knowingly met any Holocaust skeptics, let alone deniers, in real life. I had to discover this forum to seek them out. There is some denialism that has been surfaced on X because Elon seemingly entirely dismantled all moderation and the algorithm promotes extreme sensationalist content.

Jonathan Greenblatt gets paid to raise the alarm about anti-semitism. The not for profit industrial complex is real. I don't know much about what they've done or do but I'm not a huge ADL supporter and I don't see how they effectively address anti-semitism but that is mostly out of my scope of knowledge.

"Im right because everyone agrees with me" will soon become "everyone is wrong because they are antisemitic". You don't get to have your cake and eat it too, by outsourcing the merits of the Holocaust to the public at large.

I was merely throwing an argument back at the community who says Holocaust denial is winning based on some polling. I do think that to be accepted as right in an area where nearly everybody else disagrees with you requires you to be extremely tight on data and interpretation of data and argumentation and communication style. That is just practical, whether or not it is fair. But if you want to clear up a mass delusion or conspiracy of any sort, you will be perceived as crazy without iron clad evidence. In my opinion, you guys have ton a ton of research across different disciplines, but I don't think the evidence and arguments are weighed appropriately.

** I am also led to believe that those deniers are generally speaking quite low-information people. Should they ever, God forbid read a book about actual Holocaust Revisionism, they will become completely iron-clad in their disbelief and equipped with actual arguments, the kinds of which are used here to dismantle people like Nessie, which he doesn't encounter on Twitter beausse they are not knowledgeable or informed enough. But i digress.

Most of you guys are very high information which I find amusing. You know a lot more about WW2 and the Holocaust than I do, but I strongly disagree with how you are interpreting that information. Motivated reasoning and confirmation biases can make it so that having more information leads to bad conclusions and decisions due to increasing but inappropriate confidence.

I learned this during my life in finance. I saw so many people grow increasingly confident as they got more information which led them to make larger bets on bad decisions.

https://www.sunshak.com/is-more-information-the-answer/

I'm learning a lot from you guys, just probably not what you think and I'm definitely not being led to the same conclusions.

[ConfusedJew]

It would be a good idea to abandon this fools' errand of chasing public opinion to uphold the merits of the Holocaust. Firstly, you used this as a get-out-of-jail card for your bet when (i assume) you realised you need the pellets to be evacuated immediately from the room and that the difference matters; de facto offsetting the lack of care to "the public at large" is unverifiable and lazy. I still consider you as having lost that bet and whilst I don't particularly want or need your money, i would have pledged half to the upkeep of this forum and this past week has shown that that would be money well spent. And secondly, even when faced with examples of people at scale rejecting the Holocaust, it's just unreliable because they are "breezing through it".

We never made a bet and the bet that I proposed was very different from what you think I proposed.

I have not been able to figure out the exact logistics of the dispensation and removal of the Zyklon B gas but I haven't seen any strong evidence (in my opinion) to suggest that it was impossible.

I haven't read through every single one of the eyewitness reports in their original format but it seems like it isn't clear exactly how it worked. In my judgment, the fact that the testimonies don't go into that level of detail does not undermine the entire validity of the testimonies on an individual basis, let alone the entire population.

The fact that you think there ever was a bet and that you won something, suggests to me that you aren't serious. If you want to actually be serious, go back and look at the original conversation to show me there was a tangible bet.

I'm not a huge fan of polls, there's a huge variation in responses based on how you ask the question, how you sample the population, in what order you present things etc.

Anecdotally from my own life, the Holocaust is collapsing at freefall speed. While this is anecdotal, it's supported by the polls you have been shown and the article from 2014 (!) that was given to you. It's also supported by people like Nessie who say things like they debate Holocaust deniers / nazis on Twitter all day**, and people like Jonathan Greenblatt who won't stop blathering about antisemitism.

I have never knowingly met any Holocaust skeptics, let alone deniers, in real life. I had to discover this forum to seek them out. There is some denialism that has been surfaced on X because Elon seemingly entirely dismantled all moderation and the algorithm promotes extreme sensationalist content.

Jonathan Greenblatt gets paid to raise the alarm about anti-semitism. The not for profit industrial complex is real. I don't know much about what they've done or do but I'm not a huge ADL supporter and I don't see how they effectively address anti-semitism but that is mostly out of my scope of knowledge.

"Im right because everyone agrees with me" will soon become "everyone is wrong because they are antisemitic". You don't get to have your cake and eat it too, by outsourcing the merits of the Holocaust to the public at large.

I was merely throwing an argument back at the community who says Holocaust denial is winning based on some polling. I do think that to be accepted as right in an area where nearly everybody else disagrees with you requires you to be extremely tight on data and interpretation of data and argumentation and communication style. That is just practical, whether or not it is fair. But if you want to clear up a mass delusion or conspiracy of any sort, you will be perceived as crazy without iron clad evidence. In my opinion, you guys have ton a ton of research across different disciplines, but I don't think the evidence and arguments are weighed appropriately.

** I am also led to believe that those deniers are generally speaking quite low-information people. Should they ever, God forbid read a book about actual Holocaust Revisionism, they will become completely iron-clad in their disbelief and equipped with actual arguments, the kinds of which are used here to dismantle people like Nessie, which he doesn't encounter on Twitter beausse they are not knowledgeable or informed enough. But i digress.

Most poll respondents are probably low information statistically speaking, regardless of the response that they choose. But nearly all of you guys are very high information which I find amusing. You know a lot more about WW2 and the Holocaust than I do, but I strongly disagree with how you are interpreting that information. Motivated reasoning and confirmation biases can make it so that having more information leads to bad conclusions and decisions due to increasing but inappropriate confidence.

I learned this during my life in finance. I saw so many people grow increasingly confident as they got more information which led them to make larger bets on bad decisions.

https://www.sunshak.com/is-more-information-the-answer/

I'm learning a lot from you guys, just probably not what you think and I'm definitely not being led to the same conclusions.

[Nessie]

...
Orthodoxy has ALWAYS “feared” science-based conclusions if they refute erroneous beliefs that are deeply institutionalised.

Orthodoxy, meaning in this instance historians, does not fear science, as science cannot evidence a chronological, corroborated narrative with a logical conclusion. There is no such thing as a historical event that is evidenced by science.

Accusing revisionists of being equivalent to flat-earthers is: 1.) an ad hominem fallacy, based on 2.) rather idiotic argumentum ad populum fallacious reasoning.

Both revisionists and flat earthers, believe in what is evidenced to not be true. Millions of Jews did not survive Nazi captivity and the earth is not flat.

[Stubble]

Why do more people believe in the Holocaust than a round earth when the evidence is already so obvious that the earth is round in my opinion?

They don't. YouGov reports 84% of U.S. adults are certain the Earth is round but only 69% are certain the Holocaust is not a myth. If you're going to make a comparison, do it using equal terms.
https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/d ... f#page=103

From that poll, only 2% of those polled "strongly agree" that the Holocaust is a myth while another 5% tend to agree. Most people breeze through those polls and don't respond accurately or care to be accurate.

And only 47% of respondents think the event known as the holocaust transpired as alleged, furthermore, the failure to accept the '6,000,000' is considered a form of 'denial'.

See, you MUST accept the 6,000,000 figure, not because it is true (it's demonstrably not), but because it is part of the schtick.

The entire premise of the poll presupposes the acceptance of a falsehood as a qualifier of 'acceptance of the holocaust'.

That's fucking asinine.

That you are crowing about 'a vast majority of humans' (47%) accepting at face value a falsehood promoted by the education system is, telling.

The simple truth is, the more time and money is spent on 'holocaust education' (zoomers know more than any other generation about the event according to survey, they identify more of the camps, know their geographical location and are better educated about it than any other cohort surveyed), the lower the acceptance rate of the official, kosher, approved, orthodox historiography.

Further, I state plainly, that cohort wants revision of the official narrative that will comport with the reality of the documentation and evidence.

An observation; if the obsession, and it is an obsession, of holocaust promoters wasn't with the dissemination of lies as facts through institutions, the situation wouldn't now be as it is statistically speaking.

It's like looking at Gaza and realizing counter semitism exists because of jewish behavior. If you are an honest party, you can see it. You, CJ, as a bias party, simply can not. You lack the critical thinking faculties in this instance to recognize and to process this issue in a fact based and neutral way.

I have no doubt that you do indeed have relatives that went missing during the chronological instance generally referred to as 'the holocaust'. Our disagreement isn't even that they died. We disagree about an implication that they were murdered, in homicidal gas chambers disguised as shower rooms.

We don't disagree that the shoah (the situation, the kerfuffle) occurred. We disagree about what it was, how it transpired and what the factors were that lead to schools (plural) teaching children that 6,000,000 jews were killed by the nazis in homicidal gas chambers disguised as shower rooms.

Rejection of a lie will not be shamed by a label of 'denier', no matter how wildly you misframe it, no matter how many false equivalencies you make about 'flat earth', 'Elvis is alive' or whatever else slander you can spit out of your mouth about it.

The lies are being rejected CJ, and they should be.

[HansHill]

Well your assertion with cyanide is "No gassing" so this a negative assertion.

Fair enough it's a negative assertion, in the sense that in a debate (which we are, due to being in the debate forum) there is an affirmative position, and a negative position. So yes I'm in the negative position and you are in the affirmative, but that's not what you originally were arguing.

The comparison to flat earth theory I would make here is the similar lack of positive evidence

(the no positive evidence thing)

with no positive evidence.

Then when i listed a small handful of examples of positive evidence it's now "a negative assertion". If you misspoke fine, but HR do promote positive evidence.

When it comes to resettlement, do you believe millions or many hundreds of thousands of Jews were kept somewhere in occupied USSR and maintained in some way prior to their "liberation"? This is where you run into issues.

If you ask what I believe then fine, I'll bite. We know that the gulag network in Stalinist SU was in operation during exactly this period in question, and we know that Jews were the exact kinds of people who would have been Gulagged. I am phone posting right now and I don't have access to my trusty Solzhenitsyn (so someone from either side feel free to correct me if this is inaccurate), but I seem to remember the number of people run through the Gulag network being as high as 26 million people, most never to be seen or heard from again. Now I can't prove this, but if you are arguing that it was patently impossible for one or two or three million Jews to have contributed toward that 26 total number, then you are going to need some very robust rationalisations. In fact, Occam's Razor alone tells us this is far more probable than not.

[Nessie]

... Now I can't prove this...

Flat earthers cannot prove their beliefs either.

Historians and geophysicists have a ton of evidence to prove that millions of Jews arrested by the Nazis during WWII were killed and that the earth is round.

[ConfusedJew]

I don't know much about the Gulag system but AI is telling me it was established in 1919 and the system expanded and became highly organized under Joseph Stalin in the 1930s.

Deaths in the camps: Most historians estimate that between 1.5 million and 2 million people died in the Gulag system over its existence (roughly 1919–1953, the year of Stalin’s death).

Total prisoners: At its height in the 1950s, the Gulag held over 2.5 million people at a time. Over the decades, tens of millions passed through the camps for political, criminal, or “socially undesirable” reasons.

There were records of who was sent to the gulags, but they are incomplete and sometimes unreliable. The Soviet authorities kept documentation on prisoners, but the quality and accessibility of these records varied over time and between camps.

Many historians believe official numbers underreport actual deaths, because prisoners who died during transport weren’t always counted and camps sometimes falsified records to meet quotas or avoid scrutiny.

The Soviet Gulag system did not officially target people based on religion or ethnicity in the way Nazi Germany targeted Jews. Instead, the main criteria were political, social, or “criminal” status—for example, being labeled an “enemy of the state,” a kulak, or a political dissident. Historians estimate that tens of thousands of Jews were affected by arrests, but they likely represented a small fraction of the total Gulag population, which numbered in the millions at its peak.

The evidence for the Holocaust is so much stronger than millions of Jews being sent to the gulags, yet you are inclined to assign likelihood to a scenario which doesn't really have any concrete evidence.

While it might seem plausible that millions of Jews could be in the Gulag if the total Gulag population was 20+ million, the historical record does not support such a high proportion of Jewish prisoners. Most of the Gulag prisoners were ethnic Russians, Ukrainians, and other Soviet citizens, including political prisoners, kulaks, criminals, and national minorities like Chechens or Poles.