Archaeological Evidence of Mass Graves at Treblinka II

[Nessie]

What corroborated the witnesses' claims? If I say you're a thief, I'd have to prove the materiality of the theft under threat of slander or defamation. What did the Jewish witnesses offer? Videos, high-quality photos, audio recordings of the perpetrators on site? No, they said a bunch of disconnected and contradictory things. They didn't have a body counter being cremated; it's all exaggerated anecdotes that you, being Jewish, accept because they favor your identity.

In fact, I'm inclined to never discuss this topic with Jews again for obvious reasons. Psychologically, they tend to see any argument or evidence to the contrary as fitting into the cultural narrative, just as they firmly maintain that the Torah was written by the fingers of God.

The Sonderkommandos did not contradict the Nazis. Everyone who worked at the camp variously described mass arrivals, people being told to strip and all their property stolen from them, gassings, mass graves and exhumations for cremations. No one described a process that was different from that. The archaeology corroborates the claims about mass graves and cremations.

You are just denying evidence, because you do not want to accept TII was a death camp.

[TlsMS93]

And since when am I obliged to accept anything?

If the narrative was already well constructed in the following years, the greatest chance is that whoever testifies already knows what to say to their captors, just as the memories of the Topf and Sons engineers improved over time during Soviet interrogations.

[Nessie]

And since when am I obliged to accept anything?

If I hand wave away all the evidence that the British bombed Dresden in 1945, does that mean therefore the British did not bomb Dresden in 1945? The answer is clearly, no. But you think if you hand wave away all the evidence for the Holocaust, such as the archaeological, and other evidence of mass graves and buried cremated remains at TII, that therefore means there was no Holocaust and TII is not a mass burial site for hundreds of thousands of people.

If the narrative was already well constructed in the following years, the greatest chance is that whoever testifies already knows what to say to their captors, just as the memories of the Topf and Sons engineers improved over time during Soviet interrogations.

Where is your evidence that their memories improved over time? They gave statements to the Americans, which have never been published, to my knowledge, and then they were arrested again by the Soviets. Their statements to the Soviets have been published. Are you imagining that they gave repeated statements to the Soviets? Even if they were re-interviewed, that is quote normal in a criminal investigation, to clarify and ask more questions.

Stop making things up. All you are doing is fooling yourself.

[Tyger]

I have, to my best recollection, never read an explanation of how the Germans dug the large pits with their excavator; how was the spoil removed; and from where did the earth to refill the excavated pits come from? It does seem to raise a lot of practical/operational problems that seem to have been glossed over.

[Nazgul]

there was no Holocaust and TII is not a mass burial site for hundreds of thousands of people.

Thank you for finally speaking some reality.

[Nessie]

I have, to my best recollection, never read an explanation of how the Germans dug the large pits with their excavator; how was the spoil removed; and from where did the earth to refill the excavated pits come from? It does seem to raise a lot of practical/operational problems that seem to have been glossed over.

To the best of my knowledge, there are Polish rail workers who passed the camp and could see some of what was happening inside, who saw excavators were digging there as the camp was being constructed. No Nazi spoke about the digging of the graves. The Jewish witnesses either arrived after the graves had been dug, were only there for a short period of time, or they just speak about the use of excavators to exhume corpses.

None of those witnesses speak to details such as how was the spoil removed, or where earth came from to refill graves. The Kurt Franz photos of the camp, include excavators and large mounds of earth, from when the camp was being demolished.

https://collections.yadvashem.org/en/photos/44041

[Tyger]

The burial pits having been excavated prior to the arrival of those destined for murder would imply a high level of planning and preparation. They would need to be sufficiently large to accomodate (at a minimum) tens of thousands of bodies. Yet these pits are supposed to have been dug haphazardly and irregularly - something that doesn't jibe with pre-planning. And still, there is the mystery of the disappearing spoil.

[Nessie]

The burial pits having been excavated prior to the arrival of those destined for murder would imply a high level of planning and preparation. They would need to be sufficiently large to accomodate (at a minimum) tens of thousands of bodies. Yet these pits are supposed to have been dug haphazardly and irregularly - something that doesn't jibe with pre-planning. And still, there is the mystery of the disappearing spoil.

The reason why the postwar surveys have found a haphazard scene, is because of the grave robbing. Local Poles and Soviet soldiers will have disturbed ground that was not disturbed before, and spread remains further around the site.

Not knowing what happened to the spoil, when the Nazis first dug the pits in 1942, is just something missing from the detail. You think of it is a great mystery, because of your conspiratorial approach. You want the graves to be a suspicious mystery, that you can then, to yourself, justify dismissing as fake.

[Tyger]

So the digging by grave robbers leaves disturbed ground but the pits large enough to accomodate tens of thousands of bodies does not. Is that what you are saying?

[Nessie]

So the digging by grave robbers leaves disturbed ground but the pits large enough to accomodate tens of thousands of bodies does not. Is that what you are saying?

No. The 2011 GPR survey identified rectangular ground disturbances, in the parts of the camp where witnesses stated mass graves were located. The 1945 survey, using excavations, was not able to so clearly differentiate between the mass graves and where grave robbers had dug up the ground.

[Nazgul]

No. The 2011 GPR survey identified rectangular ground disturbances, in the parts of the camp where witnesses stated mass graves were located. The 1945 survey, using excavations, was not able to so clearly differentiate between the mass graves and where grave robbers had dug up the ground.

So grave robbers leave traces but the explosions of aerial bombs and artillary shells do not.

[Nessie]

No. The 2011 GPR survey identified rectangular ground disturbances, in the parts of the camp where witnesses stated mass graves were located. The 1945 survey, using excavations, was not able to so clearly differentiate between the mass graves and where grave robbers had dug up the ground.

So grave robbers leave traces but the explosions of aerial bombs and artillary shells do not.

Your deliberate, obvious, straw man misinterpretation of what I said, only serves to fool yourself. If you read the 2011 report, you would see where areas of disturbed ground are variously attributed to the original digging of pits and subsequent grave robbing.

You have no evidence bombs were dropped on TII, or that it was used for artillery fire. The evidence is that explosives were used as part of the grave robbing, as soldiers joined in with local Poles.

[Nazgul]

You have no evidence bombs were dropped on TII, or that it was used for artillery fire.

The following is evidence
http://www.vho.org/GB/c/AmicusCuriaeDemjanjuk.html

The Central Jewish Historical Commission in Poland, compiled in late 1945, [which] stated that the terrain of the Treblinka II camp had been pulverized with aerial bombs and unexploded artillery duds a few months after its liberation by an engineers unit of the 65th Red Army. This obliteration of traces of the Treblinka II camp by the Soviets took place because the Soviet propaganda machine tried to attach a 3,500,000 victim-count to this small, 12-hectare transit camp. Apparently, the Soviets were afraid that the Allies might request an international commission of investigation of the camp, as demanded by the November 15th, 1942 report of the underground government of the Warsaw ghetto. The report of the Central Jewish Historical Commission in Poland was explicit in putting the blame for this obliteration of the camp where it belonged, on the Red Army, for the: "premeditated destruction of evidence of German crimes and atrocities as well as profanation of partially cremated human remains and ashes."

[Nessie]

You have no evidence bombs were dropped on TII, or that it was used for artillery fire.

The following is evidence
http://www.vho.org/GB/c/AmicusCuriaeDemjanjuk.html

The Central Jewish Historical Commission in Poland, compiled in late 1945, [which] stated that the terrain of the Treblinka II camp had been pulverized with aerial bombs and unexploded artillery duds a few months after its liberation by an engineers unit of the 65th Red Army. This obliteration of traces of the Treblinka II camp by the Soviets took place because the Soviet propaganda machine tried to attach a 3,500,000 victim-count to this small, 12-hectare transit camp. Apparently, the Soviets were afraid that the Allies might request an international commission of investigation of the camp, as demanded by the November 15th, 1942 report of the underground government of the Warsaw ghetto. The report of the Central Jewish Historical Commission in Poland was explicit in putting the blame for this obliteration of the camp where it belonged, on the Red Army, for the: "premeditated destruction of evidence of German crimes and atrocities as well as profanation of partially cremated human remains and ashes."

So, a second hand report, with no primary sources of evidence. You would not normally believe the Central Jewish Historical Commission. You also gloss over how critical they are of the Soviets, who you usually claim were their masters. Do you believe them when they concluded TII was a death camp? Or do you just cherry-pick what suits you?

The geophysical survey work has identified rectangular pits, that are corroborated by eyewitnesses and the 1944 aerial photo. There are also photos of and witnesses to grave robbers digging at the site. All primary sourced evidence.

[Nazgul]

So, a second hand report, with no primary sources of evidence. You would not normally believe the Central Jewish Historical Commission. You also gloss over how critical they are of the Soviets, who you usually claim were their masters. Do you believe them when they concluded TII was a death camp? Or do you just cherry-pick what suits you?

The geophysical survey work has identified rectangular pits, that are corroborated by eyewitnesses and the 1944 aerial photo. There are also photos of and witnesses to grave robbers digging at the site. All primary sourced evidence.

The evidence of the Jewish Historical Commission is as good as anyone else, more credible perhaps. I am not discussing their other works only their report on Treblinka used as a bombing range. I gave photos of how multiple bombs create rectangular pits. None of your information is primary sourced, just mere rhetoric.