Wood Requirements for Outdoor Cremations

[borjastick]

Note that the 230kg wood-per-corpse estimate is actually very low, as shown by the more recent, extensive study on outdoor cremation (of pigs), which suggests a much higher figure of around ~700kg of green wood per corpse, discussed here:

Callerfangers

A stere of dried firewood with about 10% humidity weighs about 600kgs. That will vary depending on the wood type and of course the water retention in the wood. A stere is a cubic metre of wood 1x1x1. Add into that calculation the variables of outdoor cremation such as rain, temperature, wind etc. Firewood for home use has been cut at least one year before being sold and is chopped into 1m or 50cm lengths typically. It is piled up at the wood suppliers outdoors to season over many months prior to delivery.

I would suggest that at least one stere per body to do a proper job is the very minimum requirement.

[Nazgul]

Note that the 230kg wood-per-corpse estimate is actually very low, as shown by the more recent, extensive study on outdoor cremation (of pigs), which suggests a much higher figure of around ~700kg of green wood per corpse, discussed here:

Callerfangers

A stere of dried firewood with about 10% humidity weighs about 600kgs. That will vary depending on the wood type and of course the water retention in the wood. A stere is a cubic metre of wood 1x1x1. Add into that calculation the variables of outdoor cremation such as rain, temperature, wind etc. Firewood for home use has been cut at least one year before being sold and is chopped into 1m or 50cm lengths typically. It is piled up at the wood suppliers outdoors to season over many months prior to delivery.

I would suggest that at least one stere per body to do a proper job is the very minimum requirement.

This is what the Hindu Indians used but recently found that roughly 200 kg can do the same job, sort of. They are saving on wood since covid. link

[Hektor]

Even that ridiculous low ball number would still present major difficulties, i.e., it still implies big undocumented wood deliveries.

Are you sure that undocumented wood deliveries are a problem? All kinds of documentation didn't get preserved and it would make sense for Nazis to destroy any documentation of wood deliveries. Other revisionists elsewhere have posited document destruction for other things.

The issue is that there is a paper trail and hence documents would appear at several tail endings. With the interest the subject took in the past decades, I'm sure this would have shown up in one way or the other.

And yes, I'm not assuming that there were still records for everything after WW2. Not because of systematic destruction, but because of the mayhem in the central European countries then.

Still the allegations don't add up at all.

[Callafangers]

So assuming 230 kg, cremating 3 million bodies would require clearing of 3 x "several" square kilometers of forest according to the AI projections

This doesn't seem like an impossible amount of wood, probably a fraction of Nazi Germany's total wood production, but we could get into it.

You either asked incorrectly or your AI hallucinated. Either way, your depiction above is 100% false. I challenge you to show your work that it is just "several" square km of forest per million bodies' worth.

Also, you ignored the part where I clarified that even 230 kg is way too low. The correct figure is likely closer to 700 kg.

[Callafangers]

This is what the Hindu Indians used but recently found that roughly 200 kg can do the same job, sort of. They are saving on wood since covid. link

It would necessarily be much greater than 200 kg as the system they are referring to requires a roof and a chimney, which was obviously not utilized at AR camps:

The wood-based system consists of a man-sized grate beneath a roof and a chimney, which reduces heat loss. The wood is placed on the metal base, which enables better air circulation around the flames.

Garg says the benefits are manifold: It takes up to two hours and 150-200 kilograms of wood to burn a body completely, while a traditional pyre takes six hours and burns 500-600 kilograms of wood. As a result, he says, the cost is reduced significantly and emissions are cut by up to 60%.

The AR camp 'grates', to the extent they existed at all, were also based on simple railway track; i.e. were makeshift applications and not 'man-sized' nor custom built specifically for cremation.

EDIT: This is the system referred to in the linked CNN article:


In other words, it's a much closer to approximating an actual crematory facility than open-air cremations tend to be. More accurate and relevant data comes from the other studies which use outdoor pyres more similar to those alleged at the various camps.

[Callafangers]

Here is the full Mokshda Green Cremation System in operation (required to achieve 150-200kg wood per corpse):



The process is far from "open-air", utilizing much of the same efficiency methods present in indoor cremation facilities.

[Callafangers]

Also worth noting is that obesity rates are relatively high in India (indicating more efficient burning than would be expected of most WW2 Jews):

Prevalence of obesity in India is 40.3%. [...]
Obesity levels in India are very high, across all zones. The odds of being obese increases with age [...]

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8455012/

Average height in India (about 5'5" or 158cm) is also a bit lower than it is for Jews (e.g. average Israeli height of about 5'7"). Two inches in height translates to ~8% larger body mass.

Obviously, if assuming the 'Holocaust' is true, we also need to factor in the proportion of Jewish children (less overall mass) which at least balances out these above variables.

Thus, between Indian reports of some 400-600 kg wood per corpse for traditional pyres (which are themselves quite efficient, utilizing criss-cross patterns and the like to maximize airflow), the recent data on outdoor pig cremations suggesting closer to 600-700kg per corpse, and figures closer to ~200kg per corpse only being achievable with extremely-efficient systems like the Mokshda one above, it is safe to say we are looking at least around a figure of 350-450 kg per corpse for 'Holocausted' Jews, on average.

EDIT: My 350-450kg estimate is likely still much too low, as only some ~1/4th of alleged 'Holocausted Jews' are said to be children. So if we assume the children weigh on average just under half what the adults do, we are much closer to the 400-500kg per corpse range (since this factoring in of children would mean only a ~12-13% reduction in the average Jewish weight/mass overall; children also die sometimes in India, which I haven't even accounted for here).

Furthermore, Indian cremations on traditional pyres are typically encountering much better outdoor conditions than would Polish outdoor cremations in WW2. Winters are a non-issue in India, the air is dry and hot most of the year, and monsoon season (June-September) is accounted for with various best practices which can mitigate mere wetness (e.g. keeping wood stored dry, having alternate sheltered/covered areas for cremation in wet seasons). Compare this to the extreme Polish winters, making cremation a near-impossibility (and far less efficient) in much of the times it is alleged to have occurred.

All of this reminds me, perhaps the most important point yet (I feel a bit foolish for not recognizing this, initially):

Indians/Hindus are most likely able to get dry wood. This is a HUGE difference (by a factor of about 2x) compared to using green/wet wood, which is what the Nazis would have had to use almost exclusively.

Thus, we are back up to closer to ~700kg per corpse, if not higher.

[bombsaway]

it is safe to say we are looking at least around a figure of 350-450 kg per corpse for 'Holocausted' Jews, on average.

Mattogno did his own combustion experiments which came out to 3.5 kg/kg.

His speculation (“there’s no reason”) is flawed and nonsensical, in fact I have presented many facts demonstrating the exact opposite. In conclusion, his claim that at Bełżec, Sobibór and Treblinka there existed “the possibility of a lower ratio” than the one resulting from Lothes’s and Profé’s experiments (0.56 : 1) is without foundation, and therefore he has not even made any dents on my arguments in favor of a 3.5 : 1 wood/corpse ratio.

I'm gonna take this over your numbers. This comes out to 175 kg of dry wood per body. I'm going to go with that, since Mattogno has put work into it then you, and conducted his own burning experiments, which you haven't. This is without flammables, which bring that ratio down, and without assuming total destruction of the corpses. Based on these factors, going w Mattogno's estimates, we might reasonably project 100 kg per body. But let's use Mattogno's 175 number.

Assuming 3,000,000 Jews burned solely w wood (this violates witness testimony) that would come out to 3 mil x 175 kg

AI

Give me calculations for five hundred twenty-five million kg of dry wood to cubic meters


Let me calculate this using the standard density for dry wood, which is typically around 500 kg/m³.

Calculation:
Volume (m³) = Mass (kg) ÷ Density (kg/m³)
Volume = 525,000,000 ÷ 500
Volume = 1,050,000 cubic meters

I find in this link that in terms of modern Germany timber production

https://www.destatis.de/EN/Themes/Econo ... _node.html

Timber logged remaining at high level - 78.7 million cubic metres in 2022
In 2022, a total of 78.7 million cubic metres of timber was logged in German forests. The amount of timber logged dropped by 5.1% from the record high of 83.0 million cubic metres seen in 2021, according to the Federal Statistical Office (Destatis)

In ww2 Germany had access to not only their forests, but vast Polish and USSR forests. They also had millions of slave laborers who could essentially work for free, so it seems like they could match this production, or exceed it.

Therefore, even using Mattogno's experimental results, and accounting for no use of liquid flammables and partial corpse destruction, the amount of wood required would equal per year of corpse destruction would equal about 1/160th of annual production, over the two years of corpse destruction this way.

You are saying this is impossible?

[Callafangers]

it is safe to say we are looking at least around a figure of 350-450 kg per corpse for 'Holocausted' Jews, on average.

Mattogno did his own combustion experiments which came out to 3.5 kg/kg.

His speculation (“there’s no reason”) is flawed and nonsensical, in fact I have presented many facts demonstrating the exact opposite. In conclusion, his claim that at Bełżec, Sobibór and Treblinka there existed “the possibility of a lower ratio” than the one resulting from Lothes’s and Profé’s experiments (0.56 : 1) is without foundation, and therefore he has not even made any dents on my arguments in favor of a 3.5 : 1 wood/corpse ratio.

I'm gonna take this over your numbers. This comes out to 175 kg of dry wood per body. I'm going to go with that, since Mattogno has put work into it then you, and conducted his own burning experiments, which you haven't. This is without flammables, which bring that ratio down, and without assuming total destruction of the corpses. Based on these factors, going w Mattogno's estimates, we might reasonably project 100 kg per body. But let's use Mattogno's 175 number.

Assuming 3,000,000 Jews burned solely w wood (this violates witness testimony) that would come out to 3 mil x 175 kg

AI

Give me calculations for five hundred twenty-five million kg of dry wood to cubic meters


Let me calculate this using the standard density for dry wood, which is typically around 500 kg/m³.

Calculation:
Volume (m³) = Mass (kg) ÷ Density (kg/m³)
Volume = 525,000,000 ÷ 500
Volume = 1,050,000 cubic meters

I find in this link that in terms of modern Germany timber production

https://www.destatis.de/EN/Themes/Econo ... _node.html

Timber logged remaining at high level - 78.7 million cubic metres in 2022
In 2022, a total of 78.7 million cubic metres of timber was logged in German forests. The amount of timber logged dropped by 5.1% from the record high of 83.0 million cubic metres seen in 2021, according to the Federal Statistical Office (Destatis)

In ww2 Germany had access to not only their forests, but vast Polish and USSR forests. They also had millions of slave laborers who could essentially work for free, so it seems like they could match this production, or exceed it.

Therefore, even using Mattogno's experimental results, and accounting for no use of liquid flammables and partial corpse destruction, the amount of wood required would equal per year of corpse destruction would equal about 1/160th of annual production, over the two years of corpse destruction this way.

You are saying this is impossible?

bombsaway, what in the actual f*ck?

You have Hindus/Indians who regularly organize and carry out outdoor cremations on efficient pyres in even more suitable conditions than in Poland. They say these require 400-600kg per corpse, and this is likely for dry wood. More recent, extremely-relevant data discussed by Rudolf aligns well with this figure.

Most importantly: the Nazis would have necessarily used green wood, which Mattogno also discusses (and this requires twice as much wood). Mattogno argues that green wood is the relevant metric, referencing dry wood mainly for calculation and comparison.

Did you just ignore all of the variables I explained (and cited evidence for) in my last posts? You literally just pretended not to see these at all. You did not even address them.

That is completely ridiculous.

And as shown previously, your claims of liquid fuel are unsubstantiated and make essentially zero difference in the overall calculation or disparity in evidence. Your suggestion of a 43% reduction (from 175 to 100) is also laughable as this would require tens of thousands of liquid fuel deliveries to AR camps which are completely undocumented and not attested to by a single witness.

I'm quite enjoying this, bombsaway. It brings out your notorious tactics in full-force. Please continue.

[bombsaway]

Why was green wood necessary?

What do you make of Mattogno's 1:3.5 ratio, it's wrong?

The liquid fuel stuff AND partial burning would bring the ratio down

To analyze the **added cremation efficiency** achieved by **dousing wood in petrol** and **not fully burning the body (80% cremation)**, we will perform a detailed energy balance calculation. This will help determine the reduction in the amount of wood required for cremation under these modified conditions.

1. Energy Required for 80% Cremation
Total Energy for Full Cremation: 1,118,110 kJ
Adjusted for 80% Cremation:
𝑄
total
′
=
0.80
×
1
,
118
,
110
 
kJ
=
894
,
488
 
kJ
Q
total
′
​
=0.80×1,118,110kJ=894,488kJ
2. Fuel Energy Contributions
Wood:

Calorific Value: 15,000 kJ/kg
Effective Energy (80% efficiency):
15
,
000
×
0.80
=
12
,
000
 
kJ/kg
15,000×0.80=12,000kJ/kg
Petrol:

Calorific Value: 46,000 kJ/kg
Effective Energy (80% efficiency):
46
,
000
×
0.80
=
36
,
800
 
kJ/kg
46,000×0.80=36,800kJ/kg
3. Fuel Mixture Calculation
Let’s determine the amount of wood and petrol needed to meet the energy requirement of 894,488 kJ.

Let
𝑥
x = kg of wood
Let
𝑦
y = kg of petrol
The energy equation:
12
,
000
𝑥
+
36
,
800
𝑦
=
894
,
488
12,000x+36,800y=894,488

To minimize total fuel mass (
𝑥
+
𝑦
x+y), maximize petrol usage.

4. Example Calculation with 30% Petrol
Assume 30% of the fuel mass is petrol (
𝑦
=
0.30
𝑥
y=0.30x).

Substitute into the energy equation:
12
,
000
𝑥
+
36
,
800
(
0.30
𝑥
)
=
894
,
488
12,000x+36,800(0.30x)=894,488
12
,
000
𝑥
+
11
,
040
𝑥
=
23
,
040
𝑥
12,000x+11,040x=23,040x
23
,
040
𝑥
=
894
,
488
23,040x=894,488
𝑥
=
894
,
488
23
,
040
≈
38.82
 
kg of wood
x=
23,040
894,488
​
≈38.82kg of wood

Calculate petrol needed:
𝑦
=
0.30
×
38.82
≈
11.65
 
kg of petrol
y=0.30×38.82≈11.65kg of petrol

Total Fuel Mass:
38.82
 
kg wood
+
11.65
 
kg petrol
=
50.47
 
kg
38.82kg wood+11.65kg petrol=50.47kg

5. Wood Reduction
Original Wood Needed (100% Wood): ~93 kg
With 30% Petrol: 38.82 kg wood
Reduction in Wood:
93
−
38.82
=
54.18
 
kg
93−38.82=54.18kg
Percentage Reduction:
54.18
93
×
100
≈
58
%
93
54.18
​
×100≈58% less wood
6. Summary
By dousing wood with petrol and performing an 80% cremation, using a mixture where 30% of the fuel mass is petrol reduces the required wood from 93 kg to approximately 39 kg, achieving a 58% reduction in wood usage.

Note: While these calculations show significant fuel savings, using petrol introduces safety and environmental concerns. Always consider regulations and best practices when selecting cremation methods.

[Callafangers]

Here is what you missed, bombsaway:

1. Amount of Wood Required for Cremation:
- bombsaway does not address the figures of 400-600 kg per corpse for traditional Hindu cremations (despite efficient criss-cross patterns and airflow techniques).
- No mention of the Mokshda Green Cremation System, showing that even with supreme (indoor-style) efficiency ~200kg is required.
- No discussion of recent outdoor pig cremations suggesting at least 600-700 kg per corpse.

2. Physical Characteristics of Populations:
- No mention of obesity rates in India.
- No comparison of average heights.
- No discussion of the proportion of children among 'Holocausted' Jews.

3. Conditions for Cremation:
- No comparison of Indian vs. Polish conditions.
- No mention of the impact of Polish winters on cremation efficiency.

4. Type of Wood:
- No acknowledgment of the use of dry wood in India vs. green wood by the Nazis.
- No discussion of the doubling of wood requirements for green wood.

In addition to the fact that you halved Mattogno's actual estimate, you need to reconcile all of the above.

[TlsMS93]

Are you forgetting the need to at least double the amount of wood needed for open-air burning because the waste from the flames extends several meters beyond the bodies? Franz Stangl spoke of 10 meters

Open-air burning works against it, never for it

[Archie]

Here is what you missed, bombsaway:

1. Amount of Wood Required for Cremation:
- bombsaway does not address the figures of 400-600 kg per corpse for traditional Hindu cremations (despite efficient criss-cross patterns and airflow techniques).
- No mention of the Mokshda Green Cremation System, showing that even with supreme (indoor-style) efficiency ~200kg is required.
- No discussion of recent outdoor pig cremations suggesting at least 600-700 kg per corpse.

2. Physical Characteristics of Populations:
- No mention of obesity rates in India.
- No comparison of average heights.
- No discussion of the proportion of children among 'Holocausted' Jews.

3. Conditions for Cremation:
- No comparison of Indian vs. Polish conditions.
- No mention of the impact of Polish winters on cremation efficiency.

4. Type of Wood:
- No acknowledgment of the use of dry wood in India vs. green wood by the Nazis.
- No discussion of the doubling of wood requirements for green wood.

In addition to the fact that you halved Mattogno's actual estimate, you need to reconcile all of the above.

Mattogno has estimated that in the cremation ovens they needed about 30.5 kg of coke per body. That's based on good documentation from the Gusen camp. We should expect open air cremation with wood to be less efficient due to greater heat loss and the fact that wood is a less efficient fuel.

Belzec and Treblinka would have need to burn around 4,000-6,500 bodies per day. Even if we use an extremely generous assumption for the wood per body, it's still a huge problem.

For 5,000 bodies,
5,000 @ 30.5 = 152,500 kg per day
5,000 @ 100 = 500,000
5,000 @ 150 = 750,000
5,000 @ 250 = 1,250,000
5,000 @ 400 = 2,000,000

Even the lowest one (assuming efficiency on par with the cremation ovens) is actually quite high. A cord of dry hardwood is something like 1,600 kg. So it would be close to 100 cords of wood per day. Right there we already have a major problem. With the second scenario, that's like 300+ cords of wood. The highest scenario would be over a thousand which would just be bonkers.

Here's a delivery of just 10 cords of wood. The lowest scenario would be ten of these deliveries, every day for months, for one camp. And the high scenario would be over a hundred of these deliveries.


I guess my point is that even if we pretend like their fantasy land assumptions are realistic it still doesn't really work.

[bombsaway]

Here is what you missed, bombsaway:

1. Amount of Wood Required for Cremation:
- bombsaway does not address the figures of 400-600 kg per corpse for traditional Hindu cremations (despite efficient criss-cross patterns and airflow techniques).
- No mention of the Mokshda Green Cremation System, showing that even with supreme (indoor-style) efficiency ~200kg is required.
- No discussion of recent outdoor pig cremations suggesting at least 600-700 kg per corpse.

2. Physical Characteristics of Populations:
- No mention of obesity rates in India.
- No comparison of average heights.
- No discussion of the proportion of children among 'Holocausted' Jews.

3. Conditions for Cremation:
- No comparison of Indian vs. Polish conditions.
- No mention of the impact of Polish winters on cremation efficiency.

4. Type of Wood:
- No acknowledgment of the use of dry wood in India vs. green wood by the Nazis.
- No discussion of the doubling of wood requirements for green wood.

In addition to the fact that you halved Mattogno's actual estimate, you need to reconcile all of the above.

I didn't halve his estimate actually I used it. 175 kg of dry wood per body, assuming 50kg per body which I think is generous also. If you want to double everything it doesn't make much of a difference, even quadruple, it's still likely a small fraction of Nazi Germany's total production, which they could easily up with low cost slave labor, and they don't care much about deforesting areas. Your argument, because of your lack of direct evidence, hinges on the mainstream story being impossible - all that needs to be demonstrated here is that there is no strong certainty about whether it is.

The whole cremation business is uncertain. The exact methods, the fuel ratios. According to the mainstream story, Blobel and others were doing corpse experiments for many weeks before deciding on the best method, so they had time to increase efficiency. For you to demonstrate that the story is impossible you would probably have to run experiments using all sorts of different materials and methods (and emaciated human bodies), then take the lowest number and demonstrate that the fuel needed couldn't have arrived. I think it's a near impossible task, but keep on trucking I guess.

[Callafangers]

Why was green wood necessary?

What do you make of Mattogno's 1:3.5 ratio, it's wrong?

The liquid fuel stuff AND partial burning would bring the ratio down

To analyze the **added cremation efficiency** achieved by **dousing wood in petrol** and **not fully burning the body (80% cremation)**, we will perform a detailed energy balance calculation. This will help determine the reduction in the amount of wood required for cremation under these modified conditions.

If you're going with "80% cremation", you're screwed on grave volume as well as contents. The excavations at Sobibor report findings of fine ash, primarily (unless indicated otherwise). There are no massive layers of bone fragments, which your theory would require predominantly being the case. Most importantly, if you're saying the cremation was only 80%, then the number of corpses which can be contained in the graves is further reduced (by a lot).

Please confirm if you want to stick with the 80% theory, bombsaway.

As for green wood, it's necessary because this is the only mention of fuel/wood present in the testimony. There are no discussions/statements about any massive (let alone recurring) deliveries of dry wood, just like there are none for gasoline or other liquid fuels. The overall day-to-day experience of these camps would be drastically different than depicted, if these deliveries were happening. These deliveries would be at the very center of camp operations, impossible for any witness to "miss". As Archie shows above, the wood deliveries alone would be a spectacle at each instance.

Mattogno made a habit of providing conservative (exterminationist-friendly) estimates in almost all of his calculations, just reinforce his conclusions and avoid petty objections. Much of the research showing much higher requirements for wood have not been available until more recently, however, such as the comprehensive data on pigs and the report about Indian funeral pyres requiring some 400-600 kg per body. Moreover, as already mentioned, Mattogno's estimate is closer to 250+ kg per corpse (green wood), even without factoring constraints like weather conditions, etc.

Let it suffice to say that if obese Indian corpses require 400-600 kg of dry (or partly dry) wood to burn in India, starving Jewish corpses were absolutely not burning at anything less than 500 kg with green wood in Poland -- period.

You can argue that the Indian reports (and the pig study) are completely wrong somehow, but then you need to explain that as well.

It is absurd for you to keep mentioning liquid fuel at all. That is completely unevidenced and has already been conclusively debunked, here. It did not happen and does not help your case, regardless. The same total-void of evidence remains.