Himmler Order, 1941

[Nessie]

https://holocausthistory.site/1941-12-1 ... partisans/

"On December 18, 1941, Heinrich Himmler recorded a meeting with Adolf Hitler at the Führerhauptquartier (Wolfsschanze) in his Diensttagebuch (service diary). The brief entry reads: “Jewish Question. | To be exterminated as partisans.”"



That, along with Hitler's signed Action T4 order, from September 1939, for the euthanising of the disabled, is evidence to prove that murder was acceptable Nazi policy, which came from the very top.

[Wetzelrad]

Evidence that the Nazis were willing to kill people? Okay, that's never been in dispute. There was a whole war! A curious statement on your part.

This diary entry is sometimes said to be a Fuhrerbefehl. Mattogno names some of those who say so: Christopher Browning, Witte et al., and Christian Gerlach. This claim is a bit of a nonstarter since the Jews were not in fact "exterminated as partisans". Are we to believe that the millions of Jews who are said to have died in camps after this date were actually to be justified as partisan killings? No one thinks so, so what was actually being referred to in this diary entry? Probably actual partisans.

[Nessie]

The order is to exterminate Jews as partisans. That is then shown to have happened, with the further reports that list Jews separately to partisans. They are a different group, but they are to be treated the same. Himmler report to Hitler, 29 Dec 1942;

https://holocausthistory.site/1942-12-2 ... ur-months/

"2. Bandit helpers and suspects: (August, September, October, November, total)

a) Arrested 1343 3078 8337 3795 16553

b) Executed 1198 3020 6333 3706 14257

c) Jews executed 31246 165282 95735 70948 363211"

Einsatzgruppen OSR 86;

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... ort86.html

"The remaining units of Einsatzkommando 6 shot about 600 Jews in Vinnitsa.
Up to now, 140 politically tainted persons were arrested in Kirovo and 48 of these were shot. Among these were heads of unions, Komsomol leaders, lay judges, and leaders of other Bolshevik central offices.
In Krivoy-Rog, 39 officials, 11 saboteurs and looters, and 105 Jews were taken care of."

The murderous Nazis, killed anyone they saw as a threat to their ideal, whether that was the disabled, Communists, or Jews.

[Wetzelrad]

Why do you call it an order?

[Nessie]

Why do you call it an order?

Because Himmler orders Jews "To be exterminated as partisans.". In the same way, Hitler ordered the disabled to be "granted mercy death". That proves the Nazis would use mass murder to achieve their policy aims.

[Wetzelrad]

No he doesn't. You call this a "Himmler Order" but it obviously isn't that because he wasn't sending anyone orders on the inside of his personal diary. Perhaps more accurately you meant to say that Himmler was ordered, but you haven't demonstrated that this was an order at all. Where does the word "order" or anything like that appear? Is there any other point in this diary where Himmler writes a vertical dash with a received order after it? Do you even know that this note was written after the meeting, rather than before it?

Also neither partisan killing or euthanasia are normally considered murder. Both were common at the time and are still done legally today. You know this. If Ukraine executes some traitors within their borders or if Canada euthanizes a mental deficient, no one imagines it's a run up to them committing a Holocaust.

[Wetzelrad]

In searching for information on this, I can't see where anyone compared Himmler's diary to Joseph Goebbels's, so I will do it here. Goebbels was present at lunch that same date. He wrote in his diary:

18 December 1941
I speak with the Führer regarding the Jewish Question. He's determined to take consistent action and not be deterred by bourgeois sentimentality. Above all, the Jews must leave the Reich. We discuss the possibilities especially for clearing out Berlin as quickly as possible.
[...]
The Jews are all to be deported to the East. We are not very interested in what becomes of them there. They wished this fate upon themselves, they started the war, and now they must pay the price.
https://archive.org/details/goebbels-on ... 8/mode/1up

Goebbels, quite in line with his many other diary entries on this topic, was clear that the solution at that time was to deport Jews to the East. He specifically used the word "all", which is definitive. He made no mention of Himmler's conversation about partisans. "Extermination as partisans" is not even hinted at. No doubt partisan killings were a matter which concerned only Himmler because he was responsible for that task.

The Table Talk also has a short entry for this date and for the day before but Jews go unmentioned.
https://archive.org/details/HitlerTable ... 5/mode/2up

[Nessie]

No he doesn't. You call this a "Himmler Order" but it obviously isn't that because he wasn't sending anyone orders on the inside of his personal diary. Perhaps more accurately you meant to say that Himmler was ordered, but you haven't demonstrated that this was an order at all. Where does the word "order" or anything like that appear? Is there any other point in this diary where Himmler writes a vertical dash with a received order after it? Do you even know that this note was written after the meeting, rather than before it?

OK, Himmler service diary entry, Jews to be treated as partisans. That is a clear instruction, which would then be sent out as an order.

Also neither partisan killing or euthanasia are normally considered murder. Both were common at the time and are still done legally today. You know this. If Ukraine executes some traitors within their borders or if Canada euthanizes a mental deficient, no one imagines it's a run up to them committing a Holocaust.

The evidence is, from other documents, such as Einsatzgruppen OSRs, is that Jews were treated as partisans, as instructed by Himmler, and shot. They were recorded separately to partisans, and it was entire communities of Jews, who were shot, not just those believed to be actively fighting against the Nazis.

If Ukraine started to mass shoot entire communities of Russians, or Canada began to euthanise all of its disabled, they would be considered crimes.

[Nessie]

In searching for information on this, I can't see where anyone compared Himmler's diary to Joseph Goebbels's, so I will do it here. Goebbels was present at lunch that same date. He wrote in his diary:

18 December 1941
I speak with the Führer regarding the Jewish Question. He's determined to take consistent action and not be deterred by bourgeois sentimentality. Above all, the Jews must leave the Reich. We discuss the possibilities especially for clearing out Berlin as quickly as possible.
[...]
The Jews are all to be deported to the East. We are not very interested in what becomes of them there. They wished this fate upon themselves, they started the war, and now they must pay the price.
https://archive.org/details/goebbels-on ... 8/mode/1up

Goebbels, quite in line with his many other diary entries on this topic, was clear that the solution at that time was to deport Jews to the East. He specifically used the word "all", which is definitive. He made no mention of Himmler's conversation about partisans. "Extermination as partisans" is not even hinted at. No doubt partisan killings were a matter which concerned only Himmler because he was responsible for that task.

The Table Talk also has a short entry for this date and for the day before but Jews go unmentioned.
https://archive.org/details/HitlerTable ... 5/mode/2up

Berlin's Jews are to be deported, rather than shoot them, in Berlin, as partisans. The Nazis did not conduct any mass killing of western Jews, in the west.

[Wetzelrad]

OK, Himmler service diary entry, Jews to be treated as partisans. That is a clear instruction, which would then be sent out as an order.

This is stretching facts to fit them into your preconceived hypothesis. Again, there's nothing in the entry about an order, and it's too cryptic to assume so much. He even drew a clear line of separation between the two notes.

If I have a meeting with my boss scheduled and I write under the date, "Kids toys question | to be incinerated as trash", you would apparently interpret that to mean with absolute certainty that my boss had ordered me to burn the kids toys; rather than what I actually meant, which was to ask my boss a question about toys and separately to ask a question about incinerating wood shavings.

The evidence is, from other documents, [...]

Yes, it's true that other documents do say other things. That doesn't allow us to make leaping assumptions about this document. But if we do go by those other documents, then my interpretation is correct that Himmler's note refers to actual partisans.

Hopefully you are aware that by this point the Einsatzgruppen had in fact already killed numerous partisans in the occupied territories. It is therefore more logical that Himmler approached Hitler with a question about it rather than Hitler finally getting around to give the order to Himmler.

[Nessie]

OK, Himmler service diary entry, Jews to be treated as partisans. That is a clear instruction, which would then be sent out as an order.

This is stretching facts to fit them into your preconceived hypothesis. Again, there's nothing in the entry about an order, and it's too cryptic to assume so much. He even drew a clear line of separation between the two notes.

If I have a meeting with my boss scheduled and I write under the date, "Kids toys question | to be incinerated as trash", you would apparently interpret that to mean with absolute certainty that my boss had ordered me to burn the kids toys; rather than what I actually meant, which was to ask my boss a question about toys and separately to ask a question about incinerating wood shavings.

No, I would then look to see if there is evidence of toys being incinerated as trash. I would do what I did above and look for evidence to see if Jews were treated as partisans.

The evidence is, from other documents, [...]

Yes, it's true that other documents do say other things. That doesn't allow us to make leaping assumptions about this document.

A document that toys are to be incinerated as trash, that is followed up with evidence of toys being incinerated as trash, means that the instruction to incinerate toys as trash was followed through.

A document that Jews are to be treated as partisans, that is followed through with evidence of Jews being shot, along with partisans, means the instruction to treat Jews as partisans, and shot, was followed through.

But if we do go by those other documents, then my interpretation is correct that Himmler's note refers to actual partisans.

Partisans were to be shot. You accept that. The note is that Jews are to be treated the same as partisans, which means they are shot. The evidence is then, that Jews were, as well as partisans, shot.

Hopefully you are aware that by this point the Einsatzgruppen had in fact already killed numerous partisans in the occupied territories. It is therefore more logical that Himmler approached Hitler with a question about it rather than Hitler finally getting around to give the order to Himmler.

Look at any OSR and you will find reports of variously, partisans, Communists, criminals and Jews being shot by the EG.

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... eport.html

OSR also recorded after the shootings that areas were now Jew free. It was all Jews being shot, not just Jews who were partisans. Jews were to be treated as partisans. That is what the evidence proves happened.

[Callafangers]

https://holocausthistory.site/1941-12-1 ... partisans/

"On December 18, 1941, Heinrich Himmler recorded a meeting with Adolf Hitler at the Führerhauptquartier (Wolfsschanze) in his Diensttagebuch (service diary). The brief entry reads: “Jewish Question. | To be exterminated as partisans.”"



That, along with Hitler's signed Action T4 order, from September 1939, for the euthanising of the disabled, is evidence to prove that murder was acceptable Nazi policy, which came from the very top.

Nessie, your own source cited for the document transcribes it as follows:

Führerhauptquartier
Wolfsschanze 18 XII.41. 16 h Führer

Judenfrage. | als Partisanen auszurotten
__________
Neuorganisation. i. Waffen SS.
__________
Leibstandarte
Gebirgsdiv.

Auszurotten? Has this elsewhere not been shown repeatedly (e.g. in contemporary German dictionaries, other statements from German officials using this word) to have primarily referred to uprooting a people? The 'extermination' connotation was emphasized only in years and decades post-war.

Thus, you once again have presented a document that is not explicitly (nor implicitly) stating anything about 'extermination', despite directly quoting it as such. This is misleading.

[Nessie]

Google translate states "to eradicate as partisans". To find out what that means, look for evidence as to how partisans were treated. They were shot.