Revisionism's flawed methodology

[Nazgul]

Revisionist methodology means that 100% of the witnesses to the operations inside the AR camps and Kremas are dismissed as liars, and no witness can be produced, who is believed. Considering how many people went to those places, that makes the methodology used to determine witness truthfulness suspect.

You are well aware that the discussion on fplo documents places serious doubt as to the number of people who "went to those places". It is interesting that the majority of Fplo documents which are just special train schedules, are missing, thousands if not millions except for a few that mention Treblinka as the destination point. That in itself should raise a "red flag". Considering that the Polish War Crimes Commission colluding with the Russian Commission a staff of over 11 million were involved with the collection or destruction of such data should speak volumes. It is a fact that both Commissions were in collaboration with the Soviet Secret Police.

[Nessie]

Revisionist methodology means that 100% of the witnesses to the operations inside the AR camps and Kremas are dismissed as liars, and no witness can be produced, who is believed. Considering how many people went to those places, that makes the methodology used to determine witness truthfulness suspect.

You are well aware that the discussion on fplo documents places serious doubt as to the number of people who "went to those places". It is interesting that the majority of Fplo documents which are just special train schedules, are missing, thousands if not millions except for a few that mention Treblinka as the destination point. That in itself should raise a "red flag". Considering that the Polish War Crimes Commission colluding with the Russian Commission a staff of over 11 million were involved with the collection or destruction of such data should speak volumes. It is a fact that both Commissions were in collaboration with the Soviet Secret Police.

You are committing number 1, of the revisionist flaws. You suggest a new history, but cannot evidence it happening, as you fail to evidence people getting off transports and going to the camps on the stops to Treblinka. When I looked at those camps, I found evidence they were small local camps and ghettos, used to gather the local Jewish population, that closed down before TII did. Those people were transported to larger ghettos or TII. You then allege a huge number of people worked to hide and destroy evidence, without any evidence of that happening. You prove that revisionism is not history.

[Nazgul]

I found evidence they were small local camps and ghettos, used to gather the local Jewish population, that closed down before TII did. Those people were transported to larger ghettos or TII. You then allege a huge number of people worked to hide and destroy evidence, without any evidence of that happening. You prove that revisionism is not history.

Skyz Kam had thousands of Jews working in it. I never mentioned ghettos but Jewish Labour Camps en route to the final destination which trains stopped for extended periods. I think 12 million or so Soviets employed by two extraordinary commissions to find evidence is important; the fact that most of the evidence gone missing. ordinary schedules, is "extraordinary". The evidence is that the fplo documents for ordinary train movements no longer exist, yet the 10 or so for the narrative do.

[Nessie]

I found evidence they were small local camps and ghettos, used to gather the local Jewish population, that closed down before TII did. Those people were transported to larger ghettos or TII. You then allege a huge number of people worked to hide and destroy evidence, without any evidence of that happening. You prove that revisionism is not history.

Skyz Kam had thousands of Jews working in it. I never mentioned ghettos but Jewish Labour Camps en route to the final destination which trains stopped for extended periods. I think 12 million or so Soviets employed by two extraordinary commissions to find evidence is important; the fact that most of the evidence gone missing. ordinary schedules, is "extraordinary". The evidence is that the fplo documents for ordinary train movements no longer exist, yet the 10 or so for the narrative do.

The 6th flaw in revisionist methodology, is suggesting a conspiracy that would be impossible to pull off. Your suggestion that the Soviets employed 12 million people to hide and destroy train transport records is one only a conspiracist would take seriously. You even acknowledge it is "extraordinary". The Soviets failed to produce a history, or any monument to the Holocaust. They were not interested in promoting, let alone running, a massive Holocaust hoax.

[Nazgul]

The 6th flaw in revisionist methodology, is suggesting a conspiracy that would be impossible to pull off. Your suggestion that the Soviets employed 12 million people to hide and destroy train transport records is one only a conspiracist would take seriously.

Question about the train schedules Nessie. Where did they go?

[Nessie]

The 6th flaw in revisionist methodology, is suggesting a conspiracy that would be impossible to pull off. Your suggestion that the Soviets employed 12 million people to hide and destroy train transport records is one only a conspiracist would take seriously.

Question about the train schedules Nessie. Where did they go?

The same archives that the schedules posted online came from. For example, the Fplo Warsaw to Treblinka shuttle train posted on Wikipedia is credited to;

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... #Licensing

"J. Gumkowski, A. Rutkowski, Treblinka, Council for Protection of Fight and Martyrdom Monuments, Warszawa 1962, strony nienumerowane/pages not numbered"

Go to the archive they got the document from. When you (and others) suggest all records have gone, you don't really know that, because no revisionist has spent time working through the numerous archives to confirm that transport records have been destroyed. In any case, it would be fruitless search, as the reason why revisionist cannot find transport records from the AR camps, to the alleged resettlement in the east, is because those transports never happened. The Fplo's that show transports to the AR camps, also show the return journey. Those trains went back to where they came from.

The suggestion the Soviets dedicated 12 million people to finding and destroying records is conspiratorial fantasy.

[Nazgul]

The suggestion the Soviets dedicated 12 million people to finding and destroying records is conspiratorial fantasy.

You claim to be a historian and not a troll, so please use those skills and find some other fplo records.
The disappearance of those records is evidence of skulduggery. Do your job.

[Nessie]

The suggestion the Soviets dedicated 12 million people to finding and destroying records is conspiratorial fantasy.

You claim to be a historian and not a troll, so please use those skills and find some other fplo records.
The disappearance of those records is evidence of skulduggery. Do your job.

You are claiming transport records have been disappeared, but you have produced no evidence of that happening. It is up to you to do that. Either produce evidence mass transports took place and those archived records are missing, or produce a witness to records being destroyed. It is not up to me to disprove your unevidenced and frankly nonsensical claim that 12 million Soviets were disappearing records as part of a hoax.

[Nazgul]

You are claiming transport records have been disappeared, but you have produced no evidence of that happening.

They do not exist except for a few that mention "Treblinka", that is evidence. In a criminal investigation this would be put to the jury as "Spoliation of evidence".

[Nessie]

You are claiming transport records have been disappeared, but you have produced no evidence of that happening.

They do not exist except for a few that mention "Treblinka", that is evidence. In a criminal investigation this would be put to the jury as "Spoliation of evidence".

That is an example of number 5 on the OP list of revisionist flaws. Nazgul earlier claimed "It is interesting that the majority of Fplo documents which are just special train schedules, are missing, thousands if not millions except for a few that mention Treblinka as the destination point." He is now claiming evidence has been destroyed and acting as if he knows what he is talking about, by calling it spoliation of evidence.

Nazgul presents no evidence that transport documents have been destroyed, or hidden. He merely asserts they have. He does that because he believes there were mass transports from the AR camps to other destinations, which would have generated Fplo (Fahrplanordnung) documentation. He obviously fails to consider that he needs to prove such transports took place, before he can evidence the documents recording those transports have been destroyed or hidden.

Revisionists need to stop acting as if they are experts, in fields they have no expertise in.

[Nazgul]

Nazgul presents no evidence that transport documents have been destroyed, or hidden.

Please find some fplo documents of the time that have not been previously mentioned by either myself or Dr Terry. Dr Terry gave a few but these are not available for perusal, some are mentioned in the "Timeline of Treblinka" but no copies.

Here is one 26 May, 1983, fahrplananordnung nr. 2304



I want ones for Poland during the war period without references to any death camps.

[TlsMS93]

I think it's the exterminationists who constantly claim destruction of documents and yet claim that the Holocaust is the most documented event in history.

[Nazgul]

he believes there were mass transports from the AR camps to other destinations, which would have generated Fplo (Fahrplanordnung) documentation. He obviously fails to consider that he needs to prove such transports took place, before he can evidence the documents recording those transports have been destroyed or hidden.

Revisionists need to stop acting as if they are experts, in fields they have no expertise in.

Raul Hilberg interpreted Scheduling Order (Fahrplananordnung) 587 stating that all the occupants were sent to the death camp of Treblinka.


However, all the locations at the stops were either places of Jewish Labour camps or railway junctions to other labour camps. I offered an olive branch and asked the exterminationist if he could find an Fplo which went from a starting place to the final destination Treblinka, with no stops. If this could be found, there is credit to Hilbergs hypothesis.

It is a fact that the transport of Jews from one place to another would necessitate an fplo document, such as Alex Cohen travelling from Sobibor to Skyz Kam munitions plant. The same is true for Jetje and Sientje Veterman who went to about 18 labour camps and a few konzentrationslager. They incidently went from one extermination camp for Jews (Auschwitz, March 43) to another (Sobibor). The gassings were in full swing A-B in Feb March 42 and Sobibor apparently. As shown above Fplo are used in modern times as well, they are just train schedules necessary for the smooth running of the railway. There is no reason to suggest that the existing Fplo documents, as scarce as they are, were not just for transportation of Jews to the multitude of labour camps but all other special transports such as troop movements.

The question is where are the multitude of other Fplo documents depicting troop movements, transport of Jews to other labour camps. It appears to be a fact that out of all the train stations over all of German and Poland only a handful or so exist and only 4 accessible, and those suggest mass murder at Treblinka, which was also just a labour camp as well.

[Nessie]

Nazgul is exampling, again, how he is working well outwith his experience and knowledge. Evidence gathering is basic to all investigations. Nazgul thinks that because he cannot find, and I cannot produce Fplo other than for transports to the AR camps, that is evidence of mass destruction of Fplo. Obviously that is not true, since what is online is still limited and the transport timetables is a rather obscure, specialist part of the Holocaust history. It is embarrassing for Nazgul that I am having to explain that just because he cannot find something, does not therefore mean it did, but no longer exists, as it is basic reasoning. The evidenced reason why Fplo cannot be produced of transports from the AR camps to other places, is that there were no such transports. The Fplo that do exist clearly show the transports returned to their origin. His posts often contain a request for evidence, rather than he puts in the work.

Nazgul then tries to interpret the existing Fplo to suggest that because transports stopped at certain places, that means the passengers got off at those places. This is a debate we have had many times before, and he refuses to acknowledge the evidence I (and incidentally he) has produced to show that did not happen. Stops were to refuel the trains with coal and water, to change the guards and repair carriages that were being damaged as people tried to escape. Anyone getting off was shot.

Revisionists lack of experience and understanding of evidence gathering and interpretation, along with their ignorance of reasoning and logic, is apparent in pretty much every post they make.

[Nessie]

I think it's the exterminationists who constantly claim destruction of documents and yet claim that the Holocaust is the most documented event in history.

It is one of the documented events in history, with obvious, specific instances of destruction of documents. No document from an AR camp or Chelmno survives, they were clearly destroyed. As the Nazis knew the war was lost, there was mass destruction of documents, but whilst the Einsatzgruppen destroyed their records, the records of their shootings reported back to and kept in Berlin, survived. There are also examples of the Nazis not keeping records. Many people who arrived at A-B, whose existence had been well documented up to that point, just disappeared from the records. Others were registered at the camp and any transports to other camps were also recorded. It was the group not selected to work who disappeared from the records. Considering the Nazi obsession with keeping track of anyone Jewish, when someone disappears from the records, that is suspicious. What was recorded, and which survived, was the modifications of the Birkenau Kremas to include heated undressing rooms, ventilated gas chambers and cremation ovens for fast, multiple corpse cremations.

My OP point 4 was that revisionists are often ignorant of the evidence and then they play down, or ignore what is evidence.