Revisionism's flawed methodology

[TlsMS93]

So if there are witnesses who tell basically the same story and the same events, does that corroborate the event? Then why does the scientific community consider alien abductions a mass outbreak and not the Holocaust? Just because of the rhetorical question of "where did they go if they didn't die?"

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, not "circumstantial evidence" and an ad hoc test called Action 1005.

[Nessie]

So if there are witnesses who tell basically the same story and the same events, does that corroborate the event? Then why does the scientific community consider alien abductions a mass outbreak and not the Holocaust? Just because of the rhetorical question of "where did they go if they didn't die?"

Alien abduction is like being able to jump repeatedly and get to the moon, or Santa Claus delivering presents worldwide overnight from a sleigh. Physically implausible and not proven. It is not a fallacy to disbelieve something that is impossible, or evidenced to have happened.

Nazis mass transporting people and gassing them was well within their capabilities. It is the fallacy of false analogy, to compare gassings to alien abduction.

When a group of people claim something passible, such as mass gassings, rather than something impossible, such as alien abduction, those groups are not comparable. The former corroborate, the latter do not.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, not "circumstantial evidence" and an ad hoc test called Action 1005.

Claims of alien abduction are close to what revisionists claim. They claim millions of Jews were not gassed, but they cannot provide any evidence of where they were, 1942 to 44 and at liberation in 1945. They disappear from all Nazi records. Instead of more ghettos being opened to accommodate millions, they had all closed by the autumn of 1944. There is no evidence of huge camps to accommodate all of those people. Instead, millions of Jews arrived at a few specific camps and then all evidence of their existence, for the majority, ends. No witnesses, documents, nothing remains. A few revisionists have looked for evidence, such as Thomas Kues, but they have failed. Millions of people in camps at the end of 1944 and being liberated in 1945, would leave a lot of evidence, so you are right, revisionist extraordinary claims of millions surviving, needs extraordinary evidence.

[TlsMS93]

“The principle of German Jewish policy after the seizure of power consisted in promoting Jewish emigration by all means. For this purpose, in 1939, Field Marshal General Goering, in his capacity as Commissioner for the Four-Year Plan, established a Reich Control Office for Jewish Emigration and the direction was given to Gruppenführer Heydrich in his capacity as Chief of the Security Police.”

“The deportation to the General Government is a provisional measure. The Jews will be transferred further afield, to the occupied eastern territories, as soon as the technical conditions for this are met. (Luther Memorandum, August 21, 1942)

This explains ghettos and transit camps being closed but you prefer to believe in the deaths without a trace and ignore the elephant in the room called the USSR, a closed and propagandist country.

[Nessie]

“The principle of German Jewish policy after the seizure of power consisted in promoting Jewish emigration by all means. For this purpose, in 1939, Field Marshal General Goering, in his capacity as Commissioner for the Four-Year Plan, established a Reich Control Office for Jewish Emigration and the direction was given to Gruppenführer Heydrich in his capacity as Chief of the Security Police.”

“The deportation to the General Government is a provisional measure. The Jews will be transferred further afield, to the occupied eastern territories, as soon as the technical conditions for this are met. (Luther Memorandum, August 21, 1942)

This explains ghettos and transit camps being closed...

Not in the "occupied eastern territories". If millions of Jews were being relocated to what is now Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Belorussia and Ukraine, why were there no ghettos or significant camps there in 1944?

... but you prefer to believe in the deaths without a trace...

No, I believe the evidence that they left a lot of traces, with the huge areas of disturbed ground containing cremated remains found at the AR camps and Chelmno and the mass graves that are still being traced to this day.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/7/1 ... -in-poland

"A mass grave containing human ashes equivalent to 8,000 people has been discovered near a former Nazi concentration camp in Poland (Soldau).

That is from Al Jazeera in 2022, the Arabic news source primarily funded by the Qatari government.

"The grim discovery of approximately 15.8 tonnes (15,800kg) of human ashes means it can be claimed that at least 8,000 people died there, according to investigator Tomasz Jankowski."

If there was evidence of a conspiracy, or this had been faked, it would be the biggest scoop for Al Jazeera in its history. Instead, it accepts the evidence. It is not me who alleges Jews disappeared without a trace, it is revisonists, who cannot produce any evidence of millions of Jews, supposedly not killed, being accommodated by the Nazis 1944 and liberated in 1945.

...and ignore the elephant in the room called the USSR, a closed and propagandist country.

The actual elephant in the room, is that the USSR hardly produced any Holocaust "propaganda". Soviet historians pretty much ignored the Holocaust, since according to the Soviet government, it was they, not the Jews, who the greatest victims of the Nazis. No Holocaust memorial was constructed on Soviet territory. The only memorials were in Poland. Indeed, it was the Poles who initially reported on the mass killings and provided much of the evidence used for postwar trials. The Soviets hardly conducted any Holocaust related trails. All the Einsatzgruppen trials were run by the Americans, despite the EG primarily operating in Soviet territory. Does it not seem rather odd to you, that the Soviets did not run trials of Nazis who had killed Soviet citizens, and instead left it to the Americans? The West Germans ran the bulk of main AR camp, A-B and Chelmno trials, so the Soviets also had zero influence over that.

Then, when the USSR collapsed in the early 1990s, the Latvian, Estonian, Lithuanian and Ukrainian governments, instead of exposing a Soviet hoax, admitted their responsibility and that their countrymen had assisted the Nazis with the mass murdering. Now memorials were permitted. If the Soviets were Holocaust propagandists, where is the propaganda you say they produced?

[TlsMS93]

Are you not aware of Babi Yar and the Polish-Soviet commissions in the eastern camps where, for example, in Madjanek, they tried and sentenced those they found? They are the ones who brought this up.

By the way, you differentiate Poland from the USSR, which is a mistake when assessing my statement that the USSR made heavy use of propaganda during and after the war. Saying that it was the Poles who tried German officers and not the Soviets as if they were independent is even funny.

[Nessie]

Are you not aware of Babi Yar ...

Yes, and the Soviets ran no trial for anyone involved and as you have ignored, it was the American's who ran the EG trials, despite the majority of killings taking place in Soviet territory. Why would the great Soviet propagandists not run them?

and the Polish-Soviet commissions

The Soviets did some very basic camp site examinations, that the Poles followed up with their own separate, more detailed examinations, which provided evidence used at later trials, that were also not run by the Soviets. You claim the Soviets were the propagandists, but they were bit part players, providing little evidence of the Nazis murdering Jews.

... in the eastern camps where, for example, in Madjanek, they tried and sentenced those they found? They are the ones who brought this up.

https://www.majdanek.eu/en/history/trials/20

"The first trial of German camp staff took place (in Poland). It lasted from November 27 to December 2, 1944"

That is when the Polish Government in Exile in London was still the government. Then;

"The subsequent trials in front of Polish courts of law continued from 1946 to 1948... The longest process of 17 defendants took place in Düsseldorf. It lasted from November 26, 1975 to June 30, 1981"

If the Soviets were the great propagandists, why did they not run any Majdanek trials?

By the way, you differentiate Poland from the USSR, which is a mistake when assessing my statement that the USSR made heavy use of propaganda during and after the war. Saying that it was the Poles who tried German officers and not the Soviets as if they were independent is even funny.

During the war, it was the Polish Government in Exile, based in London, that produced the earliest and majority of the death camp reports. The main A-B report came from Slovakians. The Soviets had no influence over them. Postwar, Poland retained a greater degree of independence than the Baltic States or Ukraine. They conducted trials and erected memorials, distinctly absent in the USSR. You have not explained, why the Soviets, who you allege to be the major propaganda source for Holocaust atrocities, actually produced very little. Why is there no Soviet era historian of the Holocaust?

Why would the control freak Soviet leadership leave it to the Poles, Americans and West Germans? Surely they would want to control the narrative of their Nazi atrocity propaganda, especially since you say it had been faked by them.

[TlsMS93]

You are clearly distorting history. The Soviets did indeed hold trials and convictions of German officers, as in Majdanek. Polish government in exile? They were allies of the Soviets until Katyn was discovered and did not govern the country after the war, so the Soviets used Poland to try the Germans just as they did in the Moscow trials.

The USSR did indeed contribute to the image we have of the camps and contaminated those involved in the process, no matter that they emphasized Soviet suffering more than Jewish suffering, it was the same in Poland.

[borjastick]

India, where most people are cremated, had 13.8 million deaths in 2023 alone.

-Nessie

So he claims an equivalence between his claimed figure of 13 million dead in India (I have no idea if this figure is accurate) where let's say 12 million are cremated in single cremations across a country of some 3,200,000 square kilometers where these cremations are the norm, are organised and require some 600kgs of wood for each person cremated and Treblinka where it is claimed that 800,000 odd people were cremated in an area of just a maximum of 22 acres, but of course only a fraction of this area was used for the claimed cremations. And all done in just a few weeks. Oh and these people had been buried and then somehow 800,000 of them were exhumed by crack troops or workers, a task of monumental scale and horrifying to boot and yet no proof or evidence exists of this work and in war time too oh and against the clock.

People died in Treblinka and en route to it and these are the bodies that were cremated there and buried there. Nothing else to see here except the capacity for jews and Russians to concoct wild stories and propaganda about it all. Katyn Forest anyone?

[Nessie]

You are clearly distorting history. The Soviets did indeed hold trials and convictions of German officers, as in Majdanek.

Please provide evidence of a trial run exclusively by the Soviets. I have provided evidence of trials run by the Polish in Poland before it became part of the Soviet bloc and in West Germany.

Polish government in exile? They were allies of the Soviets until Katyn was discovered and did not govern the country after the war, so the Soviets used Poland to try the Germans just as they did in the Moscow trials.

Exactly, they were under no Soviet influence and they were the origins of the death camp reports. You dodge my points about the Americans running EG trials, when the majority of EG victims were Soviet citizens and that since independence, the Baltic States and Ukraine have admitted their citizens were assisting the Nazis to kill Jews, when it would have been in their national interests to expose a Soviet hoax.

The USSR did indeed contribute to the image we have of the camps and contaminated those involved in the process, no matter that they emphasized Soviet suffering more than Jewish suffering, it was the same in Poland.

The Soviet contribution was minimal. Other countries did far more to publicise the Holocaust. You have ignored my point that there was no Soviet history of the Holocaust and no memorials in the USSR. The notion that the Holocaust was a Soviet driven hoax, is contradicted by its minor role. It is you who is distorting history, my point 4 in the OP.

[Nessie]

India, where most people are cremated, had 13.8 million deaths in 2023 alone.

-Nessie

So he claims an equivalence between his claimed figure of 13 million dead in India (I have no idea if this figure is accurate) where let's say 12 million are cremated in single cremations across a country of some 3,200,000 square kilometers where these cremations are the norm, are organised and require some 600kgs of wood for each person cremated and Treblinka where it is claimed that 800,000 odd people were cremated in an area of just a maximum of 22 acres, but of course only a fraction of this area was used for the claimed cremations. And all done in just a few weeks. Oh and these people had been buried and then somehow 800,000 of them were exhumed by crack troops or workers, a task of monumental scale and horrifying to boot and yet no proof or evidence exists of this work and in war time too oh and against the clock.

You are taking my comment out of context. It was a response to a claim here;

https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=233#p233

"If we do the math, the cremation of 6 million people in 4 years surpasses several physical and chemical laws and even surpasses the Borel Limit."

That is referring to cremations over a long period of time, not one single cremation. I showed how daft that comment was.

People died in Treblinka and en route to it and these are the bodies that were cremated there and buried there. Nothing else to see here except the capacity for jews and Russians to concoct wild stories and propaganda about it all. Katyn Forest anyone?

How many people died en route and how were the pyres set? Show your evidence.
You say there is nothing else to see, but that ignores all the archaeological evidence.
Every single Nazi who worked at an AR camp also speaks to mass pyres. Why do you miss them out?
Katyn provides a strong motive for corpse disposal, to prevent body counts, identification and establishing cause of death.

You are evidencing my point 4, you are ignorant of and are dishonest about the evidence.

[TlsMS93]

India, where most people are cremated, had 13.8 million deaths in 2023 alone.

-Nessie

So he claims an equivalence between his claimed figure of 13 million dead in India (I have no idea if this figure is accurate) where let's say 12 million are cremated in single cremations across a country of some 3,200,000 square kilometers where these cremations are the norm, are organised and require some 600kgs of wood for each person cremated and Treblinka where it is claimed that 800,000 odd people were cremated in an area of just a maximum of 22 acres, but of course only a fraction of this area was used for the claimed cremations. And all done in just a few weeks. Oh and these people had been buried and then somehow 800,000 of them were exhumed by crack troops or workers, a task of monumental scale and horrifying to boot and yet no proof or evidence exists of this work and in war time too oh and against the clock.

People died in Treblinka and en route to it and these are the bodies that were cremated there and buried there. Nothing else to see here except the capacity for jews and Russians to concoct wild stories and propaganda about it all. Katyn Forest anyone?

This is in times of peace where the nation's resources are not being dispersed for other purposes and manpower is not as scarce as it was in Germany. Perhaps the black magic of the SS is the explanation.

[TlsMS93]

Between the 1940s and early 1960s, the Soviet Union prosecuted 21 people for crimes committed at Treblinka. All of them were executed or died in prison. In 1986, the Soviet Union tried another Treblinka guard, Feodor Fedorenko. Fedorenko had been deported to the Soviet Union after his crimes were exposed, resulting in him being stripped of his American citizenship. Fedorenko was sentenced to death and executed in 1987.

Excerpt from Wikipedia about Treblinka

But for Nessie the USSR did nothing.

[Nessie]

Between the 1940s and early 1960s, the Soviet Union prosecuted 21 people for crimes committed at Treblinka. All of them were executed or died in prison. In 1986, the Soviet Union tried another Treblinka guard, Feodor Fedorenko. Fedorenko had been deported to the Soviet Union after his crimes were exposed, resulting in him being stripped of his American citizenship. Fedorenko was sentenced to death and executed in 1987.

Excerpt from Wikipedia about Treblinka

But for Nessie the USSR did nothing.

I did not say the Soviets did nothing. The Wiki link is to an article in the Washington Post that needs a subscription. The article references Fedorenko, who was Ukrainian and was deported to the USSR from the USA. Many Ukrainians worked at TII, as guards. It would be interesting to find out how many of the 21 supposedly tried by the Soviets were also Ukrainians, which would be an unsurprising political act by the Soviet leadership.

The article also lists the trials that took place elsewhere, primarily West Germany. That does not suit your narrative, so you ignore it. Revisionist methodology would be thrown out by all academics, for its selective and contrary interpretation of the evidence, and demand that theories with no evidence are believed.

[MrOlonzo]

Between the 1940s and early 1960s, the Soviet Union prosecuted 21 people for crimes committed at Treblinka. All of them were executed or died in prison. In 1986, the Soviet Union tried another Treblinka guard, Feodor Fedorenko. Fedorenko had been deported to the Soviet Union after his crimes were exposed, resulting in him being stripped of his American citizenship. Fedorenko was sentenced to death and executed in 1987.

Excerpt from Wikipedia about Treblinka

But for Nessie the USSR did nothing.

I did not say the Soviets did nothing. The Wiki link is to an article in the Washington Post that needs a subscription. The article references Fedorenko, who was Ukrainian and was deported to the USSR from the USA. Many Ukrainians worked at TII, as guards. It would be interesting to find out how many of the 21 supposedly tried by the Soviets were also Ukrainians, which would be an unsurprising political act by the Soviet leadership.

The article also lists the trials that took place elsewhere, primarily West Germany. That does not suit your narrative, so you ignore it. Revisionist methodology would be thrown out by all academics, for its selective and contrary interpretation of the evidence, and demand that theories with no evidence are believed.

The West German government was installed by the allies with a new basic law.

Revisionist methodology is no different than the usual exacting historical methodology where source criticism and primary documentation is analysed. It remains superior to exterminationist work because it cites sources for most claims made and does not rely on hearsay.

[Nessie]

...
Revisionist methodology is no different than the usual exacting historical methodology where source criticism and primary documentation is analysed.

Revisionist methodology means that 100% of the witnesses to the operations inside the AR camps and Kremas are dismissed as liars, and no witness can be produced, who is believed. Considering how many people went to those places, that makes the methodology used to determine witness truthfulness suspect.

Revisionist methodology cannot produce an evidenced chronological narrative of what did happen, which is the primary role of history.

It remains superior to exterminationist work because it cites sources for most claims made and does not rely on hearsay.

Revisionism cannot cite a single witness, which is suspect and the history of the death camps relies on eyewitnesses and other evidence, not hearsay.