ELI5

[bombsaway]

So far as actually going through the documents one by one, like I had to do with some of the Auschwitz criminal traces from the HCBlog it is just so fucking tiresome. All I want is truth and fidelity, but no, always, and I stress this, always I get some janky contrived narrative driven misrepresentation of reality. I never just get the facts such as they were, in a non bias way.

Look at it this way, I'll give you some statements which we can fact check, but this is the affirmer perspective (I think that's a better term, and shorter)

Non-employable Jews from the Warthe district were sent to Chelmno, many tens of thousands all of this documented https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... l#_ftnref6 There's no record of those Jews being transported anywhere, no witness statements or records of them ending up anywhere else

Chelmno was staffed extensively by Germans who had participated in T4 (SK Lange), with documented history of euthanizing patients from mental hospitals https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... erman.html

Dozens of witness statements from Jews, Germans, Poles that a mass killing operation was being conducted there with gas vans https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... #_ftnref22

Document (Just memo) explicitly tying use of homicidal gas vans to Chelmno, with death toll of 100,000 given by June 1942

Remember Chelmno processed Jews from the Warthe? There's a letter from the Governor of the Warthe, Arthur Grieser which states euthanizing of 100,000 Jews from his district was ongoing

Mass graves found , matching the description of witnesses at forest near Chelmno (the dead were brought here), with descriptions similar to what you saw at Belzec.

Now we get to the documents that are being interpreted in such a way to cause you frustration. They speak of mass deliveries of concrete, chlorinated lime, and yes a ball mills / bone mill for use at Chelmno. There's this guy Blobel who was an Einsatzgruppen leader associated with mass shootings of Jews in USSR, here as well. British intercepts show him requisitioning fuel and a flame thrower. Witness testimonies (eg from Hoess, commandant of Auschwitz) have him using that flamethrower in body destruction experiments. Hoess's visit to Blobel is documented, with the conclusion being the requisition of the ball mill used there to go to Auschwitz for use of "grinding substances". Their tour also included an inspection of the "experimental site of field ovens Aktion Reinhard" https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... tml#_doc62

From an orthodox perspective what should we make of these "frustrating" documents? They don't prove extermination in and of themselves, they have to be contextualized with all other pieces of data. Earlier you pointed out that looking at documents individually you can miss out on the big picture. I think if you take that perspective now, it will be easier for you to understand our viewpoint on the matter.

It would be my preference for us to put a pause in this particular subject and go back to mid 1941 when all this started. Extermination didn't happen overnight, it was a process that developed over the course of a few months in USSR, and then moved over to Poland. If you understand that, then all this may make more sense for you. Like I said, better to go through the subject sequentially, for purposes of understanding.

[Stubble]

So far as actually going through the documents one by one, like I had to do with some of the Auschwitz criminal traces from the HCBlog it is just so fucking tiresome. All I want is truth and fidelity, but no, always, and I stress this, always I get some janky contrived narrative driven misrepresentation of reality. I never just get the facts such as they were, in a non bias way.

Look at it this way, I'll give you some statements which we can fact check, but this is the affirmer perspective (I think that's a better term, and shorter)

Non-employable Jews from the Warthe district were sent to Chelmno, many tens of thousands all of this documented https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... l#_ftnref6 There's no record of those Jews being transported anywhere, no witness statements or records of them ending up anywhere else

Chelmno was staffed extensively by Germans who had participated in T4 (SK Lange), with documented history of euthanizing patients from mental hospitals https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... erman.html

Dozens of witness statements from Jews, Germans, Poles that a mass killing operation was being conducted there with gas vans https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... #_ftnref22

Document (Just memo) explicitly tying use of homicidal gas vans to Chelmno, with death toll of 100,000 given by June 1942

Remember Chelmno processed Jews from the Warthe? There's a letter from the Governor of the Warthe, Arthur Grieser which states euthanizing of 100,000 Jews from his district was ongoing

Mass graves found , matching the description of witnesses at forest near Chelmno (the dead were brought here), with descriptions similar to what you saw at Belzec.

Now we get to the documents that are being interpreted in such a way to cause you frustration. They speak of mass deliveries of concrete, chlorinated lime, and yes a ball mills / bone mill for use at Chelmno. There's this guy Blobel who was an Einsatzgruppen leader associated with mass shootings of Jews in USSR, here as well. British intercepts show him requisitioning fuel and a flame thrower. Witness testimonies (eg from Hoess, commandant of Auschwitz) have him using that flamethrower in body destruction experiments. Hoess's visit to Blobel is documented, with the conclusion being the requisition of the ball mill used there to go to Auschwitz for use of "grinding substances". Their tour also included an inspection of the "experimental site of field ovens Aktion Reinhard" https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... tml#_doc62

From an orthodox perspective what should we make of these "frustrating" documents? They don't prove extermination in and of themselves, they have to be contextualized with all other pieces of data. Earlier you pointed out that looking at documents individually you can miss out on the big picture. I think if you take that perspective now, it will be easier for you to understand our viewpoint on the matter.

This should be split in my opinion, I apologize for again engaging in topic drift. Also my thread in the revisionist safe space should be deleted (I was able to delete the redundant thread) if we are going to go down this path.

I do this a lot, and I need to work more on not drifting topics.

/expletive/

Addendum; to be very clear, my consternation with the documents presented in the earlier link provided from the holocaust controversies blog is not, let me stress this, is not because of the content, but rather because of the presentation. The presentation from the new provided links is not better, but rather quite similar. I'm not 'frustrated' with billings for concrete of delivery of a ball mill etc. The article itself however comes across in tone and meter as pravda. That, that is what grates on me.

[bombsaway]

So far as actually going through the documents one by one, like I had to do with some of the Auschwitz criminal traces from the HCBlog it is just so fucking tiresome. All I want is truth and fidelity, but no, always, and I stress this, always I get some janky contrived narrative driven misrepresentation of reality. I never just get the facts such as they were, in a non bias way.

Look at it this way, I'll give you some statements which we can fact check, but this is the affirmer perspective (I think that's a better term, and shorter)

Non-employable Jews from the Warthe district were sent to Chelmno, many tens of thousands all of this documented https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... l#_ftnref6 There's no record of those Jews being transported anywhere, no witness statements or records of them ending up anywhere else

Chelmno was staffed extensively by Germans who had participated in T4 (SK Lange), with documented history of euthanizing patients from mental hospitals https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... erman.html

Dozens of witness statements from Jews, Germans, Poles that a mass killing operation was being conducted there with gas vans https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... #_ftnref22

Document (Just memo) explicitly tying use of homicidal gas vans to Chelmno, with death toll of 100,000 given by June 1942

Remember Chelmno processed Jews from the Warthe? There's a letter from the Governor of the Warthe, Arthur Grieser which states euthanizing of 100,000 Jews from his district was ongoing

Mass graves found , matching the description of witnesses at forest near Chelmno (the dead were brought here), with descriptions similar to what you saw at Belzec.

Now we get to the documents that are being interpreted in such a way to cause you frustration. They speak of mass deliveries of concrete, chlorinated lime, and yes a ball mills / bone mill for use at Chelmno. There's this guy Blobel who was an Einsatzgruppen leader associated with mass shootings of Jews in USSR, here as well. British intercepts show him requisitioning fuel and a flame thrower. Witness testimonies (eg from Hoess, commandant of Auschwitz) have him using that flamethrower in body destruction experiments. Hoess's visit to Blobel is documented, with the conclusion being the requisition of the ball mill used there to go to Auschwitz for use of "grinding substances". Their tour also included an inspection of the "experimental site of field ovens Aktion Reinhard" https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... tml#_doc62

From an orthodox perspective what should we make of these "frustrating" documents? They don't prove extermination in and of themselves, they have to be contextualized with all other pieces of data. Earlier you pointed out that looking at documents individually you can miss out on the big picture. I think if you take that perspective now, it will be easier for you to understand our viewpoint on the matter.

This should be split in my opinion, I apologize for again engaging in topic drift. Also my thread in the revisionist safe space should be deleted if we are going to go down this path.

I do this a lot, and I need to work more on not drifting topics.

/expletive/

I just edited the post maybe, you missed this , I said

It would be my preference for us to put a pause in this particular subject and go back to mid 1941 when all this started. Extermination didn't happen overnight, it was a process that developed over the course of a few months in USSR, and then moved over to Poland. If you understand that, then all this may make more sense for you. Like I said, better to go through the subject sequentially, for purposes of understanding.

[Stubble]

Look at it this way, I'll give you some statements which we can fact check, but this is the affirmer perspective (I think that's a better term, and shorter)

Non-employable Jews from the Warthe district were sent to Chelmno, many tens of thousands all of this documented https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... l#_ftnref6 There's no record of those Jews being transported anywhere, no witness statements or records of them ending up anywhere else

Chelmno was staffed extensively by Germans who had participated in T4 (SK Lange), with documented history of euthanizing patients from mental hospitals https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... erman.html

Dozens of witness statements from Jews, Germans, Poles that a mass killing operation was being conducted there with gas vans https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... #_ftnref22

Document (Just memo) explicitly tying use of homicidal gas vans to Chelmno, with death toll of 100,000 given by June 1942

Remember Chelmno processed Jews from the Warthe? There's a letter from the Governor of the Warthe, Arthur Grieser which states euthanizing of 100,000 Jews from his district was ongoing

Mass graves found , matching the description of witnesses at forest near Chelmno (the dead were brought here), with descriptions similar to what you saw at Belzec.

Now we get to the documents that are being interpreted in such a way to cause you frustration. They speak of mass deliveries of concrete, chlorinated lime, and yes a ball mills / bone mill for use at Chelmno. There's this guy Blobel who was an Einsatzgruppen leader associated with mass shootings of Jews in USSR, here as well. British intercepts show him requisitioning fuel and a flame thrower. Witness testimonies (eg from Hoess, commandant of Auschwitz) have him using that flamethrower in body destruction experiments. Hoess's visit to Blobel is documented, with the conclusion being the requisition of the ball mill used there to go to Auschwitz for use of "grinding substances". Their tour also included an inspection of the "experimental site of field ovens Aktion Reinhard" https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... tml#_doc62

From an orthodox perspective what should we make of these "frustrating" documents? They don't prove extermination in and of themselves, they have to be contextualized with all other pieces of data. Earlier you pointed out that looking at documents individually you can miss out on the big picture. I think if you take that perspective now, it will be easier for you to understand our viewpoint on the matter.

This should be split in my opinion, I apologize for again engaging in topic drift. Also my thread in the revisionist safe space should be deleted if we are going to go down this path.

I do this a lot, and I need to work more on not drifting topics.

/expletive/

I just edited the post maybe, you missed this , I said

It would be my preference for us to put a pause in this particular subject and go back to mid 1941 when all this started. Extermination didn't happen overnight, it was a process that developed over the course of a few months in USSR, and then moved over to Poland. If you understand that, then all this may make more sense for you. Like I said, better to go through the subject sequentially, for purposes of understanding.

Let's move it to another thread, maybe titled 'chronology of the holocaust' or something to that effect. So that we can keep this thread free of clutter and focused in message and content.

Man I need to work more on not engaging in thread drift.

[bombsaway]

It's certainly my fault as well, but we can stop now and will eventually come back to this in the chronology thread, which I will start in the research part of the forum in a few days. Would appreciate it mods don't delete this