Operation Reinhardt staff and the T4 connection

[bombsaway]

Dude, I literally already jumped that ring in my first post.

For fucks sake.

So far as these guys being comic book villains, go look at the court transcripts. They are absolute caricatures of human beings.

Now we are going to talk about how some kind of mass formation psychosis literally turned a cook into a murder machine? The guy became a pencil pusher.

Look, do you believe in the treblinka toilet goblin, dj poop master fresh, who wore a grandfather clock around his neck flava flave style? Because that guy is a cartoon as well.

Holocaust promoters are making something sinister out of something benign here. This is like the proof for gassings at Auschwitz being documents referring to clothing fumigation and storage facilities outside the krema being indicative of mass gassings somehow.

Of course these personnel were 'ordinary men', I'm not the one claiming something to the contrary.

Being a bus driver or a mortician doesn't turn someone into a cold blooded killing machine.

Their previous employment shouldn't be an issue here, especially given how innocuous it was. They weren't 'experienced in gassing people'. They were cooks, bus drivers and other functionaries. Not killers.

The whole narrative of 'they took their experience' is garbage, and the cartoonish way they are presented is a real disservice to history as it is inaccurate and misinformative.

This thread is about the T4 connection. It seems like you're more just questioning various pieces of witness testimony about extermination activities.

"Holocaust promoters are making something sinister out of something benign here. "

So basically it's a coincidence that the camp leadership was exclusively from T4? Or the fact that the T4 program was about involuntary killing is not relevant, they were selected for other reasons, which have to do with T4 but not the killing part, some other aspect of it (please specify).

[Stubble]

Dude, I literally already jumped that ring in my first post.

For fucks sake.

So far as these guys being comic book villains, go look at the court transcripts. They are absolute caricatures of human beings.

Now we are going to talk about how some kind of mass formation psychosis literally turned a cook into a murder machine? The guy became a pencil pusher.

Look, do you believe in the treblinka toilet goblin, dj poop master fresh, who wore a grandfather clock around his neck flava flave style? Because that guy is a cartoon as well.

Holocaust promoters are making something sinister out of something benign here. This is like the proof for gassings at Auschwitz being documents referring to clothing fumigation and storage facilities outside the krema being indicative of mass gassings somehow.

Of course these personnel were 'ordinary men', I'm not the one claiming something to the contrary.

Being a bus driver or a mortician doesn't turn someone into a cold blooded killing machine.

Their previous employment shouldn't be an issue here, especially given how innocuous it was. They weren't 'experienced in gassing people'. They were cooks, bus drivers and other functionaries. Not killers.

The whole narrative of 'they took their experience' is garbage, and the cartoonish way they are presented is a real disservice to history as it is inaccurate and misinformative.

This thread is about the T4 connection. It seems like you're more just questioning various pieces of witness testimony about extermination activities.

"Holocaust promoters are making something sinister out of something benign here. "

So basically it's a coincidence that the camp leadership was exclusively from T4? Or the fact that the T4 program dealt with involuntary killing is not relevant, they were selected for other reasons, which have to do with T4 but not the killing part, some other aspect of it (please specify).

To add, it seems Mr Stubble is also demonstrating quite admirably that the T4 -> AR re-assignment looks:

- a lot less like muh evil Nazis being handpicked to slaughter Jews because they are emotionless ice cold murder machines, and
- a lot more like the restructuring of competent operational staff from a complex yet redundant operation, to one that is complex and mission critical

Mr Hill somehow immediately understood what you absolutely fail to.

If you want to paint these men with a different brush, feel free, and we can talk about it. From where I'm standing, a simple farmer who ran an agricultural detail has been literally turned into 'Frankenstein's monster' by moving him to the laserette (if I botched the spelling, my bad, I usually say triage, so, that word isn't exactly integrated with my vocabulary) and saying he killed 'thousands of people' and saying he threw them into a 50 foot deep flaming pit...

/shrug

[Nessie]

...

Being a bus driver or a mortician doesn't turn someone into a cold blooded killing machine.

Their previous employment shouldn't be an issue here, especially given how innocuous it was. They weren't 'experienced in gassing people'. They were cooks, bus drivers and other functionaries. Not killers.

They worked on a secretive euthanasia programme and were clearly fine with that. The bus driver, who collected disabled people and drove them to be killed, is going to be a good candidate to receive Jews off trains and organise them to be sent to be gassed. The cook at the euthanasia hospital is a good candidate to cook for staff at a death camp. The senior manager of a euthanasia hospital is a good candidate for the commander of a death camp.

They were clearly selected to work on AR, because they had shown themselves to be morally and mentally fine with mass killing of people considered to be unworthy of living, useless eaters, enemies of the state.

[Nessie]

... a simple farmer who ran an agricultural detail has been literally turned into 'Frankenstein's monster' by moving him to the laserette ...

A simple farmer, who proved himself when working on a programme to euthanise disable people, including many children, is a suitable candidate to work on a programme to euthanise Jews, including many children.

Remember, many Germans objected to T4 so it had to be formally cancelled. A German, who was prepared to work on such a programme, was a proven resource.

[HansHill]

They were clearly selected to work on AR, because they had shown themselves to be morally and mentally fine with mass killing of people considered to be unworthy of living, useless eaters, enemies of the state.

Emphasis mine. Nessie, what does "falsifiable" mean in the context of asserting a theory?

[Nessie]

They were clearly selected to work on AR, because they had shown themselves to be morally and mentally fine with mass killing of people considered to be unworthy of living, useless eaters, enemies of the state.

Emphasis mine. Nessie, what does "falsifiable" mean in the context of asserting a theory?

That it can be proved wrong. For you to prove there was no link between T4 and AR, to account for why so many AR staff came from T4, you would need to prove AR did not involve mass killings.

[HansHill]

That it can be proved wrong. For you to prove there was no link between T4 and AR, to account for why so many AR staff came from T4, you would need to prove AR did not involve mass killings.

You are half right. This:

"They were clearly selected to work on AR, because they had shown themselves to be morally and mentally fine with mass killing of people considered to be unworthy of living, useless eaters, enemies of the state."

Is not falsifiable. What is so clear about it? Mr Stubble has already demonstrated in this thread that any link between staff being assigned to two operations as being non-murderous.

[Nessie]

That it can be proved wrong. For you to prove there was no link between T4 and AR, to account for why so many AR staff came from T4, you would need to prove AR did not involve mass killings.

You are half right. This:

"They were clearly selected to work on AR, because they had shown themselves to be morally and mentally fine with mass killing of people considered to be unworthy of living, useless eaters, enemies of the state."

Is not falsifiable. What is so clear about it? Mr Stubble has already demonstrated in this thread that any link between staff being assigned to two operations as being non-murderous.

Someone who was a cook, or a driver, on both operations, is still part of both, they just did not directly kill anyone. Only a few staff turned on the gas.

[HansHill]

Someone who was a cook, or a driver, on both operations, is still part of both, they just did not directly kill anyone. Only a few staff turned on the gas.

So why bring them up? If your assertion is, for example - "Erich Fuchs was transferred from T4 to AR because he was knowledgeable about gassing jews", why invoke other superfluous transferees? Is it to add apparent weight, volume and credibility to your theory?

[Archie]

I would like to make a more general point about all of this.

The question really starts with the extermination decision/order. Once the German government decided to execute millions of Jews, then you would expect some discussions over the means to do this, including technical considerations.

Imagine you are Hitler and you have just decided that the entire Jewish race must be exterminated (in the sense that they all must be executed). The Holocaust scholars can't decide when this happened but among the anti-revisionist crowd the theory is late 1941. Okay, let's go with that (we can ignore the problems with that issue for the time being). If I am planning on rounding up and killing millions of Jews, wouldn't the next logical consideration be over the technical and logistical means to accomplish this? Wouldn't there be some discussions over how to do this? Yet with the Holocaust we presented on the one hand with an "industrialized," mass murder program but on the other a program that is essentially improvised.

I noted the seemingly improvised nature of the supposed T4 gas chambers here.
https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=5356#p5356

But this theme recurs elsewhere, including at AR and at Auschwitz. Arthur Butz made this general point way back in 1976 in Hoax.

This is a good point at which to raise objections regarding lines of responsibility and authority in these operations. Höss says he received his order directly from Himmler during – we have agreed to pretend – the summer of 1942. This means that Himmler not only bypassed Glücks, but also Pohl in giving this order directly to the camp commandant, specifying that Glücks was not to learn what was going on. Himmler reached three levels or more down to give the order and specified that Höss was to maintain an impossible secrecy. Most irregular.

That is not all. The story we are offered by the Höss affidavit and testimony and all other sources is that (except for certain later developments to be discussed) the German government left the means of killing, and the materials required, a matter for the judgment and ingenuity of the local camp commandant. Höss decides to convert two old peasant houses. Höss found the Zyklon kicking around the camp and decided that it offered a more efficient method of solving the Jewish problem than that employed at Treblinka, where they had scrounged up some captured Russian tanks and trucks to use for exterminations.

All of this is idiotic, and Reitlinger is obviously uncomfortable with the “problem” of the responsibility of the Zyklon decision but gets nowhere with the difficulty except to make it graver by suggesting that Hitler (!) finally decided on Zyklon “with misgiving.”[33]

https://www.unz.com/book/arthur_r_butz_ ... p_27_1:1-1

[TlsMS93]

Imagine you are Hitler and you have just decided that the entire Jewish race must be exterminated (in the sense that they all must be executed). The Holocaust scholars can't decide when this happened but among the anti-revisionist crowd the theory is late 1941. Okay, let's go with that (we can ignore the problems with that issue for the time being). If I am planning on rounding up and killing millions of Jews, wouldn't the next logical consideration be over the technical and logistical means to accomplish this? Wouldn't there be some discussions over how to do this? Yet with the Holocaust we presented on the one hand with an "industrialized," mass murder program but on the other a program that is essentially improvised.

Goring in his famous letter asked Heydrich to keep him informed about all this.

In addition to the orders given to you in the directive of 24.1.39, to bring about the quickest and most efficient solution possible under the current conditions to the Jewish Question in the form of emigration or evacuation, I hereby instruct you to make all necessary organizational, technical and material preparations for a complete solution of the Jewish Question in the German sphere of influence in Europe. As the responsibilities of other central bodies are fulfilled, they must participate.

I also instruct you to inform me as soon as possible about the general plan of the organizational, technical and material prerequisites for the implementation of the desired Final Solution of the Jewish Question.

Where is Heydrich's response to Goring on this? Did they carry out an impromptu extermination? Poor Odilo Globocnik's subordinate in Lublin, imagine his shock when he received that verbal order from Himmler to do that.

[HansHill]

Imagine you are Hitler

Based

[Archie]

Imagine you are Hitler and you have just decided that the entire Jewish race must be exterminated (in the sense that they all must be executed). The Holocaust scholars can't decide when this happened but among the anti-revisionist crowd the theory is late 1941. Okay, let's go with that (we can ignore the problems with that issue for the time being). If I am planning on rounding up and killing millions of Jews, wouldn't the next logical consideration be over the technical and logistical means to accomplish this? Wouldn't there be some discussions over how to do this? Yet with the Holocaust we presented on the one hand with an "industrialized," mass murder program but on the other a program that is essentially improvised.

Goring in his famous letter asked Heydrich to keep him informed about all this.

In addition to the orders given to you in the directive of 24.1.39, to bring about the quickest and most efficient solution possible under the current conditions to the Jewish Question in the form of emigration or evacuation, I hereby instruct you to make all necessary organizational, technical and material preparations for a complete solution of the Jewish Question in the German sphere of influence in Europe. As the responsibilities of other central bodies are fulfilled, they must participate.

I also instruct you to inform me as soon as possible about the general plan of the organizational, technical and material prerequisites for the implementation of the desired Final Solution of the Jewish Question.

Where is Heydrich's response to Goring on this? Did they carry out an impromptu extermination? Poor Odilo Globocnik's subordinate in Lublin, imagine his shock when he received that verbal order from Himmler to do that.

The thing is, all kinds of things would come up. If you send out such extermination orders, people would probably push back somewhat or at least have questions. "We're doing what? You want me to execute several hundred thousand people? And you want me to figure out how to do this? Please confirm!" Remember that during the 1930s expelling Jews from Germany was considered the "radical" solution and there were some who wanted softer policies.

Also, if there were an order to execute six million Jews, that's not going to go off without a hitch. To actually accomplish it you would need some very active project management or it just wouldn't get done.

[Stubble]

If there were an order, it wouldn't have stopped at 6.

[Nessie]

Someone who was a cook, or a driver, on both operations, is still part of both, they just did not directly kill anyone. Only a few staff turned on the gas.

So why bring them up? If your assertion is, for example - "Erich Fuchs was transferred from T4 to AR because he was knowledgeable about gassing jews", why invoke other superfluous transferees? Is it to add apparent weight, volume and credibility to your theory?

If the staff from Mossad, including clerical workers, all transferred to another organisation after it was cancelled, and there was evidence that the new organisation was murdering people, you would instantly see the blindingly obvious connection.