The Hungarian jews; another 'where'd they go'

[bombsaway]

For two and one half months in some cases, without providing them soap, showers or laundry services.

Fully employable jews, spared the gas chambers for work, in the sick bay for a two and a half months.

I think the idea there weren't selections from this pool of prisoners "aka spared the gas chambers" is speculative. Are you inferring the Nazis had no intentions of bringing any of these workers into the labor pool?

What is your exact assertion or belief about these Blocks, that we can then test. I don't know much about them

[Stubble]

For two and one half months in some cases, without providing them soap, showers or laundry services.

Fully employable jews, spared the gas chambers for work, in the sick bay for a two and a half months.

I think the idea there weren't selections from this pool of prisoners "aka spared the gas chambers" is speculative. Are you inferring the Nazis had no intentions of bringing any of these workers into the labor pool?

What is your exact assertion or belief about these Blocks, that we can then test. I don't know much about them

My speculation is that these internees were 'unemployable'.

So far as selections from the hospitals at the Auschwitz Complexes, I can provide evidence in the form of individual examples that these selections were to determine if internees needed to go to a 'hospital' or 'rehabilitation' camp, not 'to the gas chamber'.

I can understand how people full of fear and being fed wartime rumor may have misconstrued this positive practice.

[Nessie]

Believe it or not, but you're strawmanning me. The "missing Jews" in and of themselves are clearly not direct evidence of gassing. Rather it's prerequisite of any such claims, and it also highlights a great implausibility I have with the revisionist narrative, that there's no documents or testimony that evidence what happened to them. Rinse and repeat w all the missing Jews that were sent to Auschwitz, the missing Jews that were sent to the Reinhardt camps, the missing Jews "resettled" all across Occupied USSR and at places like Kiev and Riga. The implausibility concerns the perfect cover up executed to conceal all of this evidence.

Missing Jews is part of the circumstantial evidence they were killed and cremated. Obviously, if someone is missing, that is consisted with being killed and the corpse disposed of. It is also circumstantial, that the Hungarian Jews arriving at A-B in 1944, were not the only large group of Jews to have arrived at a camp or other location and then disappear. Mass disappearances had started at the end of 1941.

That so many people went missing, is also significant, because hiding that many people would be very difficult and the Nazis had no reason to hide them, since they knew they were being accused of killing them. By the end of the Hungarian action, the Nazis had disappeared over 5 million Jews, who, if still alive, would be impossible to hide, due to the sheer scale of evidence of their existence that would be left behind.

[bombsaway]

For two and one half months in some cases, without providing them soap, showers or laundry services.

Fully employable jews, spared the gas chambers for work, in the sick bay for a two and a half months.

I think the idea there weren't selections from this pool of prisoners "aka spared the gas chambers" is speculative. Are you inferring the Nazis had no intentions of bringing any of these workers into the labor pool?

What is your exact assertion or belief about these Blocks, that we can then test. I don't know much about them

My speculation is that these internees were 'unemployable'.

So far as selections from the hospitals at the Auschwitz Complexes, I can provide evidence in the form of individual examples that these selections were to determine if internees needed to go to a 'hospital' or 'rehabilitation' camp, not 'to the gas chamber'.

I can understand how people full of fear and being fed wartime rumor may have misconstrued this positive practice.

Those Jews were processed, registered brought into the labor force. You're seeing if there's a connection there between those deemed by the Nazis to be "non employable", the 60% that Goebbels said were being liquidated?

I think it's a speculative point. With other populations you actually see dedicated camps for children, people unable to work. You can trace those camps from their foundation to eventual liberation and the populations therein

eg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinder_KZ

With Jews, what you see is enormous populations disappearing, no dedicated camps for Children and non-working Jews that exist until liberation (the ghettos served this exact purpose but they were all closed down, Theresienstadt was closed and everyone there deported to Auschwitz where most disappeared). This is not direct evidence of gassing but a prerequisite, and I like I said it hurts the revisionist narrative because now you have to assume a massive cover up to explain mass "disappearance". This stuff with a few prisoners that were maybe or maybe not deemed non-employable, doesn't address that millions entered these camps and disappeared in terms of paper trail.

[Stubble]

I think the idea there weren't selections from this pool of prisoners "aka spared the gas chambers" is speculative. Are you inferring the Nazis had no intentions of bringing any of these workers into the labor pool?

What is your exact assertion or belief about these Blocks, that we can then test. I don't know much about them

My speculation is that these internees were 'unemployable'.

So far as selections from the hospitals at the Auschwitz Complexes, I can provide evidence in the form of individual examples that these selections were to determine if internees needed to go to a 'hospital' or 'rehabilitation' camp, not 'to the gas chamber'.

I can understand how people full of fear and being fed wartime rumor may have misconstrued this positive practice.

Those Jews were processed, registered brought into the labor force. You're seeing if there's a connection there between those deemed by the Nazis to be "non employable", the 60% that Goebbels said were being liquidated?

I think it's a speculative point. With other populations you actually see dedicated camps for children, people unable to work. You can trace those camps from their foundation to eventual liberation and the populations therein

eg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinder_KZ

With Jews, what you see is enormous populations disappearing, no dedicated camps for Children and non-working Jews that exist until liberation (the ghettos served this exact purpose but they were all closed down, Theresienstadt was closed and everyone there deported to Auschwitz where most disappeared). This is not direct evidence of gassing but a prerequisite, and I like I said it hurts the revisionist narrative because now you have to assume a massive cover up to explain mass "disappearance". This stuff with a few prisoners that were maybe or maybe not deemed non-employable, doesn't address that millions entered these camps and disappeared in terms of paper trail.

I understand your perspective and I can appreciate it, surely.

That said, I'm not going to quit hunting these missing jews until I find them. Where I find them isn't my main concern, because if they are in an unmarked hole in the ground, ultimately they are not missing, and if they are in a marked hole in the ground the same is true. I have a personal 'need to know' and I don't feel it unwarranted when you look at the level of propagandizing the holocaust has experienced.

Regardless, I'm not going with 'missing, assumed dead'. My premise is 'missing, feared dead'.

When I find a sliver, here or there, turning over these stones, that shows me something else that isn't consistent with the orthodox thesis, it doesn't give me reason to adopt, insane as parts of it may be, the orthodox line.

You say;

This stuff with a few prisoners that were maybe or maybe not deemed non-employable, doesn't address that millions entered these camps and disappeared in terms of paper trail.

I must mention, these inconsistencies are cumulative and do not exist in a vacuum. I also feel it merits a mention that out of these 'millions' you speak, we must count thousands multiple times to reach the conclusion of millions. As mentioned in another post, Yad Vashim has been able to 'prove' 10% of the victims of Babi Yar. If we count them all 9 times, then I suppose the numbers line up.

The thesis of the orthodox narrative is a systematic planned extermination of the jewish people. When I look at the evidence, that's not what I see. It simply isn't.

Of course I understand when you tell me 'these people are missing' and of course I understand when you say 'this doesn't look good'. Without the murder weapon, the order, and actually seeing the paper trail, I'm not keen on accepting 'missing assumed dead'.

[bombsaway]

Of course I understand when you tell me 'these people are missing' and of course I understand when you say 'this doesn't look good'. Without the murder weapon, the order, and actually seeing the paper trail, I'm not keen on accepting 'missing assumed dead'.

I don't think you're understanding me completely

When I say disappeared, I mean in terms of paper trail. This in itself does not mean they were killed. There's other evidence they were killed, documentary, witness etc. Herein is the direct evidence of a mass killing campaign, eg Goebbels saying 60% of the Jews in the GG were being liquidated. But if those Jews could be accounted for that mass killing campaign would be contradicted. This is why it was easy for historians to discount mass killings at Majdanek.

The lack of evidence also makes the revisionist narrative implausible. You know how you say details in the witness testimonies make the Holocaust seem implausible? I think a 100% successful cover up of a mass resettlement operation involving at least many many hundreds of thousands of people, not only in terms of paper trail, but witness suppression (of millions of possible witnesses), executed by both Soviets and the western allies with no evidence of this conspiracy surfacing, this is implausible.

[Stubble]

Of course I understand when you tell me 'these people are missing' and of course I understand when you say 'this doesn't look good'. Without the murder weapon, the order, and actually seeing the paper trail, I'm not keen on accepting 'missing assumed dead'.

I don't think you're understanding me completely

When I say disappeared, I mean in terms of paper trail. This in itself does not mean they were killed. There's other evidence they were killed, documentary, witness etc. Herein is the direct evidence of a mass killing campaign, eg Goebbels saying 60% of the Jews in the GG were being liquidated. But if those Jews could be accounted for that mass killing campaign would be contradicted. This is why it was easy for historians to discount mass killings at Majdanek.

The lack of evidence also makes the revisionist narrative implausible. You know how you say details in the witness testimonies make the Holocaust seem implausible? I think a 100% successful cover up of a mass resettlement operation involving at least many many hundreds of thousands of people, not only in terms of paper trail, but witness suppression (of millions of possible witnesses), executed by both Soviets and the western allies with no evidence of this conspiracy surfacing, this is implausible.

Again, I do indeed both understand and appreciate your position. That said, I currently refuse to accept it.

I 'need to know'.

Currently I lack a sufficient dataset to draw the same conclusion.

[Nessie]

It is easier to imagine Jews being relocated to the east, from AR camps in 1942, than it is for Hungarians sent to Birkenau in 1944. That the documentary trail of c400,000 Hungarian Jews ended at Birkenau, over just a few months, is very difficult even for deniers to explain away.

Evidence of preparation work for the arrival of so many people. Extra barracks were needed for all the additional property that the Nazis would steal from the Hungarians.

https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... ce-on.html

"Telegram (21/05/1944) of Kammler to the central construction office Auschwitz on "for the special action Hungary, immediately erect three horse-stable barracks at the swerve bunkers" [Bartosik, The beginnings of the extermination of Jews...,p.149]"

"Telegram from Hans Kammler to the central construction office of 25 May 1944 on “for special action Hungary/program 3 horse stable barracks are immediately to be erected at the swerve bunkers” [Bartosik, The beginnings of the extermination of Jews...,p.150]"

The where did they go question should be expanded to, where did they go, after they had every possession they had on them taken from them?

[Stubble]

From another thread, imported as contextually related and useful to the thread.

Hungarian Jewish databases.

https://www.jewishgen.org/databases/hun ... orials.htm
https://www.milev.hu/kutatas-235517.html
https://www.ushmm.org/online/hsv/source ... ceId=39683
https://www.yadvashem.org/press-release ... 03-00.html

Dutch Jewish databases.

https://www.ushmm.org/online/hsv/source ... ceId=27995 (survivor list)
https://holocaustremembrance.com/news/d ... s-unveiled
https://www.ushmm.org/online/hsv/source ... ceId=31949
https://portal.ehri-project.eu/units/us ... -irn516664

General search;

https://arolsen-archives.org/en/search- ... e-archive/
https://www.ushmm.org/remember/resource ... ng-service
https://wienerholocaustlibrary.org/what ... earch/its/

Tracing ancestors is easier now than it has ever been, because of the digitisation of so many records. Many of the records were generated by the Dutch and Hungarian authorities, the police and civil servants tasked with tracing and arresting their Jewish citizens. Why would they lie about that and admit to their participation in the genocide of a group of their citizens?

[Nessie]

Why would Hungary lie about its participation in the rounding up and transportation of Jewish citizens, and how many sent to A-B in 1944, never returned?

[Stubble]

Nessie, just because I don't go back to my hometown to reside, doesn't mean I'm dead, does it.

[Nessie]

Nessie, just because I don't go back to my hometown to reside, doesn't mean I'm dead, does it.

If every Muslim was rounded up from your hometown and taken away by the army and after a few years, no one had returned home, or even been heard from, if rumours circulated that was because they had all been killed, that would be a rumour with supporting circumstantial evidence.

If subsequent enquiries found that soldiers admitted to killing them at a camp, where others gave testimony about cremating the corpses and there were documents and other evidence to support that, it does mean they are dead, doesn't it.

[Stubble]

Nessie, just because I don't go back to my hometown to reside, doesn't mean I'm dead, does it.

If every Muslim was rounded up from your hometown and taken away by the army and after a few years, no one had returned home, or even been heard from, if rumours circulated that was because they had all been killed, that would be a rumour with supporting circumstantial evidence.

If subsequent enquiries found that soldiers admitted to killing them at a camp, where others gave testimony about cremating the corpses and there were documents and other evidence to support that, it does mean they are dead, doesn't it.

And, what if one of them popped up alive on tv to do an interview with his brother after his brother had just adamantly shouted a revisionist down, on tv, about his dead brother?

There is a reason a court of law requires a body. There is a reason an insurance company requires a body. There is a reason.

[HansHill]

Copying this from the locked thread, to reply to it here. Nessie wrote:

Tracking people is nowhere near as difficult as you want to pretend. There are all sorts of ancestry companies, cashing in on helping people to track or prove relatives, as they settle compensation and property claims, or people want to know what happened.

Nice try Nessie. Paying to find your granny on 23&Me is in no way comparable to geolocating and quantifying a dissident minority population in wartime across borders behind the iron curtain, and you know it.

A far more meaningful comparison would be: quantifying North Korean defectors.

I challenge you to ask your favourite LLM "how many people have defected from North Korea since its inception?" Depending which one you use it will either tell you A) we don't know, or B) give you a range. Why? Because it's very difficult to quantify a dissident minority population in wartime across borders.

If you go one step further, and ask your favourite LLM why it's so difficult, it will tell you. Those reasons include:

- Technical limitations (this despite of course, living in the age of high technology
- Political reasons - for example, China not wishing to disturb it's delicate relationship with NK, and the wider Korean peninsula
- Propaganda narratives - defectors pose risk to established narratives of sensitive topics like for example, the North Korean famine in the 90s where we believe millions of people perished
- They are an isolationist people who wish to remain as such and integrating into host-societies is not desirable if even possible

"B-b-but thats totally different!"

No. Its remarkably similar, and you know it.

[Nessie]

Nessie, just because I don't go back to my hometown to reside, doesn't mean I'm dead, does it.

If every Muslim was rounded up from your hometown and taken away by the army and after a few years, no one had returned home, or even been heard from, if rumours circulated that was because they had all been killed, that would be a rumour with supporting circumstantial evidence.

If subsequent enquiries found that soldiers admitted to killing them at a camp, where others gave testimony about cremating the corpses and there were documents and other evidence to support that, it does mean they are dead, doesn't it.

And, what if one of them popped up alive on tv to do an interview with his brother after his brother had just adamantly shouted a revisionist down, on tv, about his dead brother?

That would prove survival was exceptional and unexpected.

There is a reason a court of law requires a body. There is a reason an insurance company requires a body. There is a reason.

Courts do not require a body to prove murder, people can be declared dead for insurance payouts. Your ignorance is fooling you.