Operation Reinhardt staff and the T4 connection

[Stubble]

Go watch the testimony, I'll link some.

Maybe the UK won't consider it hate speech and you will be able to see it.

[Nessie]

Go watch the testimony, I'll link some.

Maybe the UK won't consider it hate speech and you will be able to see it.

It is no wonder you are confused and disbelieving, when you get your information from denier sources. I am not going to drift this any further into the selection process, you can read about it yourself.

TII's German staff came from T4, that is no coincidence. It chronologically connects the two projects.

[Stubble]

This collection is clipped pretty badly, so, you don't get to hear about 'what passes for German coffee' or haircuts. There is some of the mention of changing clothes before boarding and leaving.



The shoah foundation wants me to make an account to view the survivor testimony directly from them, it's on there, but I don't have an account.

I couldn't find any of these transited jews on the shoah foundation YouTube page, but, I didn't look super hard.

I don't know why you and bombs accuse me of making this shit up or whatever. I'm not. I'm just sharing what I know.

It isn't my fault it doesn't fit with the orthodox description of events.

[bombsaway]

It isn't my fault it doesn't fit with the orthodox description of events.

Transit of some Jews to Majdanek is part of the Orthodox description. Records of these transports exist. Absolutely nothing for transit into Russia.

I think the issue is you have lack of knowledge about the subject and what orthodoxy assets. The "tube" isn't corroborated by numerous witnesses? Not sure what your arguments are it's all pretty incomprehensible.

[Stubble]

For the record, out of all the interviews, testimony etc from Abraham Bomba, for example, this cartoon character was never mentioned.

You'd think he would have noticed.

I think you're coming at this from the perspective of, oh it's a giant lie, it didn't happen like this. If you examined it from another perspective, like Bomba truly witnessing the mass slaughter of his countrymen, knowing his family had been likely killed there too, maybe it would make sense to you why he wasn't focused on the bathroom situation.

I think you are coming at this from the wrong angle. Survivor testimony to the shoah foundation describes a completely different process from the atrocity propaganda pamphlet 'A Year in Treblinka'.

Julian probably had a union dispute over bathroom breaks and so was immortalized by Warnick in this way.

Further, the propaganda is cited by 'historians' rather than the benign witness accounts, which are free of things like being run naked up the tube while being clubbed and bitten by dogs, and free of dj poop master fresh.

What part of this is confusing to you Bombsaway?

What about this is 'incomprehensible'?

[Nessie]

It isn't my fault it doesn't fit with the orthodox description of events.

Transit of some Jews to Majdanek is part of the Orthodox description. Records of these transports exist. Absolutely nothing for transit into Russia.

I think the issue is you have lack of knowledge about the subject and what orthodoxy assets. The "tube" isn't corroborated by numerous witnesses? Not sure what your arguments are it's all pretty incomprehensible.

Revisionists think that the bit of history they did at school, which may have been very basic, such as looking at how the Vikings lived, is enough for them to be able to expertly comment on the wide-ranging, complicated history of the Holocaust.

Stubble thinks that selections at TII do not fit with the "orthodox" history, because he does not actually know what the "orthodox" history is. For years, many historians believed that the only Jewish survivors from TII, were escaped prisoners. The selection survivors, only because more commonly known about, after the Shoah interviews and documentaries. The selection process happened at other camps, most famously A-B, where it was even photographed and it fits with the evidenced history of people who were needed for work, survived, the rest were sent to the gas chambers.

[Stubble]

No Nessie, I think it doesn't fit because these survivors don't describe people being run up the tube while being beaten and chased by dogs to get a haircut and shower that they already recieved...

A new thread to keep this thread free of clutter and contain this topic drift.

viewtopic.php?t=257

[bombsaway]

I think you're coming at this from the perspective of, oh it's a giant lie, it didn't happen like this. If you examined it from another perspective, like Bomba truly witnessing the mass slaughter of his countrymen, knowing his family had been likely killed there too, maybe it would make sense to you why he wasn't focused on the bathroom situation.

I think you are coming at this from the wrong angle. Survivor testimony to the shoah foundation describes a completely different process from the atrocity propaganda pamphlet 'A Year in Treblinka'.

Julian probably had a union dispute over bathroom breaks and so was immortalized by Warnick in this way.

Further, the propaganda is cited by 'historians' rather than the benign witness accounts, which are free of things like being run naked up the tube while being clubbed and bitten by dogs, and free of dj poop master fresh.

What part of this is confusing to you Bombsaway?

What about this is 'incomprehensible'?

You point out "odd" things like the dogs and certain witnesses not talking about the tube or gas chambers. These things are explicable from the orthodox perspective though, like an extermination camp being run in an abusive and brutal way, and Jews being transited through not given a full tour of the camp. A particular theme for you seems to be, why didn't the witness talk about these specific details? (while ignoring the many many details corroborated by witnesses) A critique like this seems particularly incomprehensible to me in the face of the total lack of any evidence, witness, documentary, for the non-employable Jews surviving anywhere. The gall. The hypocrisy. The utter silliness of it.

[Stubble]

1) t4 personnel assigned to 'Aktion Reinhard' (I remind you, it was Aktion Reinhardt, and wasn't named after Reinhard Heydrich) weren't 'carbon monoxide gassing specialists.

2) they are misframed by historians that unironically quote from atrocity propaganda.

3) witnesses don't describe an experience congruent with the atrocity propaganda.

You had asked 'were they misframed by the 'witnesses', or the historians'. I replied both.

If you want to explore treblinka further, I've started a thread.

I think this one has probably run its course.

[bombsaway]

1) t4 personnel assigned to 'Aktion Reinhard' (I remind you, it was Aktion Reinhardt, and wasn't named after Reinhard Heydrich) weren't 'carbon monoxide gassing specialists.

2) they are misframed by historians that unironically quote from atrocity propaganda.

3) witnesses don't describe an experience congruent with the atrocity propaganda.

You had asked 'were they misframed by the 'witnesses', or the historians'. I replied both.

If you want to explore treblinka further, I've started a thread.

I think this one has probably run its course.

Actually you fail on point 1. Who were the specialists? Wirth wasn't?

2) quoting witnesses is not misframing, unless you can say they are deliberately quoting certain witnesses and not others. Which witnesses aren't they quoting?

3) Wrong, every eyewitness describe the killing process in a similar way

But all of this "oddness" seems silly to point out, when confronted with the oddness of zero information whatsoever on the fate of the non-employable Jews

Your next thread should be comparative in nature. As long as you don't do this, all these complaints, particularly about lack of evidence are going to seem very silly to me. I refuse to believe that something could happen to millions of people that totally escapes the documentary and witness record. It seems many orders of magnitude more unreasonable than whatever you find suspect about the orthodox narrative.

[Stubble]

Who designed and built these warehouses in which people were murdered in 15 minutes by a single motor?

Was it;

A) a guy that drove a bus occasionally and cremated bodies during t4?

Or

B) Wirth, your satan incarnate boogie man villain of the piece?

[bombsaway]

Who designed and built these warehouses in which people were murdered in 15 minutes by a single motor?

Was it;

A) a guy that drove a bus occasionally and cremated bodies during t4?

Or

B) Wirth, your satan incarnate boogie man villain of the piece?

Re Hackenholt, according to wikipedia, he had background in construction and was skilled mechanic. Re Belzec

Hackenholt returned to Poland and was sent to Bełżec, a remote labour camp near the rail station,[5] to conduct experiments to establish a method for the mass-murder of Jews by gassing. Hackenholt set up three gas chambers in an insulated barracks.

From here https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-his ... za00.shtml

According to agreeing testimonies by his former SS-comrades, Hackenholt certainly had 'special technical knowledge and mechanical abilities' which he utilized with great inventiveness in the early days at the camp at the beginning of 1942. While the first primitive gas chambers were being built in the wooden shed, Hackenholt, together with Siegfried Graetschus, converted a big Post Office delivery van into a mobile gas chamber by connecting the engine exhaust pipe to the sealed rear compartment.

These experimental victims, brought to the camp in several railway goods wagons, were very probably Jewish mental patients deported from the Reich. One SS-NCO commented about these experiments conducted by commandant Wirth:

Belzec was the laboratory ... he tried everything imaginable there. In Belzec, Wirth tested the basics of the extermination machinery right through with his men. [37]
Finally, and to some extent influenced by Hackenholt's gassing van, the engine exhaust fumes from a Soviet tank were decided upon as the most suitable and economic means for the mass murder of Jews. Former SS-NCO Hans Girtzig, who served in Belzec with Hackenholt, told officers from SK III/a about this gassing installation in the camp:

(Page 13)

Hackenholt had installed the engine, this was explained to us at a duty conference ... I know for certain that in the beginning Wirth and Hackenholt, and later Hackenholt alone, that is, with the help of Ukrainians, operated the gassing engine. [38]

So this was a different method than used at T4, one specially suited to Hackenholt's background as a mechanic. I think it would be fair to say, via T4, the connection was probably the familiarity he had with Wirth. The command element of T4 seems more relevant than the specifics of the gassings. Those commanders, like Wirth, proved themselves capable of conducting a transgressive killing operation with high level of secrecy. I think this was the greatest factor.

Your suggestion that I think of Wirth as a Satan/Boogie man is pure nonsense. I don't appreciate such a suggestion, nor even the implication that historians view Wirth this way. I think it's a repeated pattern with you, probably a projection, probably a sign of you being too emotionally involved in all of this. You don't need to bring such things into discussions with me at least, you can be an adult about this, I trust you are an adult.

Re Withr, what we have is testimonies like this, from Stangl

Wirth was a gross and florid man. My heart sank when I met him. He stayed at Hartheim for several days that time and often came back. Whenever he was there he addressed us daily at lunch. And here it was again this awful verbal crudity: when he spoke about the necessity of this euthanasia operation, he was not speaking in humane or scientific terms, the way Dr. Werner at T-4 had described it to me. He laughed. He spoke of 'doing away with useless mouths', and that 'sentimental slobber' about such people made him 'puke'.[9][10]: 183–186 

What should the approach of historians be to statements like this?

[Stubble]

Wow, he invented gas vans too?

They couldn't spare one at the Kaiser's Koffee Kafe, so, this fella rigged his own?

Wonder if it had the custom 'tipper' mechanism or not.

[bombsaway]

Wow, he invented gas vans too?

They couldn't spare one at the Kaiser's Koffee Kafe, so, this fella rigged his own?

Wonder if it had the custom 'tipper' mechanism or not.

What do you think about all this "links about secrecy"
https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=5314#p5314

So we have here a ranking of "ideal causes of death" - is this document real or not?

What about stuff like this?

Death and Deliverance page 247

The last point applied to people like a fifteen-year-old boy of 'gypsy' ancestry called L., who was killed at Kaufbeuren. L. was himself a little bully and a thief, but many of the staff seem to have felt rather affectionately towards him, organising his transfer to a work party to save his life.41 When L. stole again, despite a severe reprimand, Faltlhauser gave the order to kill him. This proved difficult. Clearly what we call 'street-wise', L. knew what was happening in the asylum; on one occasion he gave an orderly he liked a photograph of himself inscribed 'in memory'. He said he was not going to live much longer.42 L. refused to drink coffee which he detected had been laced with Luminal. However, it was noted that he was anxious about typhus in the paediatric department. His anxiety opened up other avenues of opportunity. Faltlhauser decided to delegate the job to the ubiquitous Pauline K. (i.e. to a professional murderess, brought in to Kaufbeuren for this sole purpose). She went upon L., all innocent, in the morning, informing him that he was to be inoculated against typhus. She gave him two injections. During the night, his face turned purple and he groaned heavily. Foam and powder were evident around his mouth. Although he had hitherto been in rude good health, L. died before the following morning. One day he was working and acting the fool, the next he was dead.43

At Hadamar, Alfred S. worked on the estate at Schnepfenhausen. In October 1942 the medical reports noted that he was 'unpleasant', and that 'he often told stories about the asylum in the town'. On 2 December he was restricted to the asylum, lest he again be 'let loose talking too much'. Three days later he was dead. The same fate befell anyone who complained about the conditions in the asylum.44 'Sometimes the nursing staff just wanted to lay hands upon a watch, a nice suit or a good pair of shoes belonging to a patient, who was then killed to satisfy their cupidity.'45

Patients who tried to escape were treated correctly, up to the point where they began talking to outsiders, about life and death in Hadamar. This normally resulted in their dying of 'pneumonia' shortly afterwards. Schutz S. was eighteen years old at the time of these entries in his patient records:

31 August 1942
has been employed in a work party for a few days. Transferred today to the [Schnepfenhausen] barges.
9 September 1942
industrious and very skilful. Ran away today. Was in Hundsdangen, by Limburg, for a day; is back.
17 September 1942
working again on the estate.
13 January 1943
still working as before on the estate. No complaints about his behaviour.
9 June 1943
has been working for a long time in the carpentry shop ... and is very reliable. Escaped in May or April, but was rapidly recaptured. Ran away again today. Received 20 Marks and ration cards from a female employee. Did not return from visiting the town.
20 June 1943
picked up yesterday in Neudorf near Wiesbaden, today unchanged. Threatens to escape again, and says he will tell things about the asylum. He tells the police various things about the asylum. Stays in bed.
30 June 1943
ill with pneumonia. Dead of pneumonia today.46

At the Kalmenhof in Idstein, where adolescent boys were beaten with an oxhide whip, or smashed in the mouth with soup ladles, or made to do five hundred breadests for minor infractions (the house regulations specifically banned any form of corporal punishment), anyone who stole or disobeyed orders was killed. This applied to those who inconvenienced the staff by persistent bed-wetting.

Faked documents? Misframing by the historians?

[Nessie]

All Stubble is interested in doing, is finding excuses to express his incredulity, as if that somehow proves no gassings.