The Franke-Gricksch Report

[curioussoul]

He is describing the earlier ramp, not the one that went into Birkenau.

No, he's describing the Birkenau ramp that went into the camp area and past the Crematoria.

He said dedicated enclosed area and the ramp at Birkenau was not enclosed. It was open to the rest of the camp.

Exactly. The new ramp went straight into the Birkenau camp with a track crossing right between the two Crematoria, which were enclosed. The old ramp didn't even go into a camp, let alone into 'dedicated enclosed areas of the camp'. This anachronism demonstrates the report couldn't possibly date from when it is alleged to have been written.

[Nessie]

No, he's describing the Birkenau ramp that went into the camp area and past the Crematoria.

He said dedicated enclosed area and the ramp at Birkenau was not enclosed. It was open to the rest of the camp.

Exactly. The new ramp went straight into the Birkenau camp with a track crossing right between the two Crematoria, which were enclosed. The old ramp didn't even go into a camp, let alone into 'dedicated enclosed areas of the camp'. This anachronism demonstrates the report couldn't possibly date from when it is alleged to have been written.

The dedicated enclosed area was the enclosed area around the old ramp.

[curioussoul]

He said dedicated enclosed area and the ramp at Birkenau was not enclosed. It was open to the rest of the camp.

Exactly. The new ramp went straight into the Birkenau camp with a track crossing right between the two Crematoria, which were enclosed. The old ramp didn't even go into a camp, let alone into 'dedicated enclosed areas of the camp'. This anachronism demonstrates the report couldn't possibly date from when it is alleged to have been written.

The dedicated enclosed area was the enclosed area around the old ramp.

The old ramp was not in any of the camps, so that can't be it. The only possible candidate is the new ramp that lead directly into Birkenau and passed by the enclosed areas of Crematoria II and III.

[Hans]

No, he's describing the Birkenau ramp that went into the camp area and past the Crematoria.

He said dedicated enclosed area and the ramp at Birkenau was not enclosed. It was open to the rest of the camp.

Exactly. The new ramp went straight into the Birkenau camp with a track crossing right between the two Crematoria, which were enclosed. The old ramp didn't even go into a camp, let alone into 'dedicated enclosed areas of the camp'. This anachronism demonstrates the report couldn't possibly date from when it is alleged to have been written.

The old ramp was actually within the administrative district concentration camp.

It was special tracks, it was in the camp area and it was separated from Auschwitz-Birkenau and Auschwitz main camp. From the perspective of a visitor in 1943, the old ramp could indeed have been seen as "special tracks in specially designated districts of the camp".

[curioussoul]

He said dedicated enclosed area and the ramp at Birkenau was not enclosed. It was open to the rest of the camp.

Exactly. The new ramp went straight into the Birkenau camp with a track crossing right between the two Crematoria, which were enclosed. The old ramp didn't even go into a camp, let alone into 'dedicated enclosed areas of the camp'. This anachronism demonstrates the report couldn't possibly date from when it is alleged to have been written.

The old ramp was actually within the administrative district concentration camp.

It was special tracks, it was in the camp area and it was separated from Auschwitz-Birkenau and Auschwitz main camp. From the perspective of a visitor in 1943, the old ramp could indeed have been seen as "special tracks in specially designated districts of the camp".

No, it really could not, since the "Alte Judenrampe" neither went into any of the camps (it literally stopped midway between Birkenau and Auschwitz Main Camp, after which you'd have to walk by foot or drive to the camps) nor was it a "dedicated enclosed area of the camp". And in no way was it a "special track" since it was part of the old rail line. I can't find any evidence it was even enclosed. The story of the Franke-Griksch report is that Jews were routed into the camp, straight to the gas chambers, which would have been true for the new ramp constructed in 1944 - hence the embarrassing anachronism.

I honestly find it hilarious the extent to which you're attempting to pilpul your way out of this.

[Nessie]

Exactly. The new ramp went straight into the Birkenau camp with a track crossing right between the two Crematoria, which were enclosed. The old ramp didn't even go into a camp, let alone into 'dedicated enclosed areas of the camp'. This anachronism demonstrates the report couldn't possibly date from when it is alleged to have been written.

The dedicated enclosed area was the enclosed area around the old ramp.

The old ramp was not in any of the camps, so that can't be it. The only possible candidate is the new ramp that lead directly into Birkenau and passed by the enclosed areas of Crematoria II and III.

The chronology is wrong for it to be that ramp.

https://fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/contro ... recis.html

"REPORT by SS Stubaf FRANKE-GRIKSCH on a journey through Poland during the period 4 - 16 May '43"

https://www.auschwitz.org/en/history/au ... elections/

"The third ramp was built from 1943 inside the Birkenau camp, and went into operation in May 1944 in connection with the anticipated arrival of transports of Hungarian Jews. The railroad spur along this ramp ran as far as gas chambers and crematoria II and III."

[curioussoul]

The dedicated enclosed area was the enclosed area around the old ramp.

The old ramp was not in any of the camps, so that can't be it. The only possible candidate is the new ramp that lead directly into Birkenau and passed by the enclosed areas of Crematoria II and III.

The chronology is wrong for it to be that ramp.

https://fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/contro ... recis.html

"REPORT by SS Stubaf FRANKE-GRIKSCH on a journey through Poland during the period 4 - 16 May '43"

https://www.auschwitz.org/en/history/au ... elections/

"The third ramp was built from 1943 inside the Birkenau camp, and went into operation in May 1944 in connection with the anticipated arrival of transports of Hungarian Jews. The railroad spur along this ramp ran as far as gas chambers and crematoria II and III."

Precisely. Finally we agree on something. So the report clearly could not have been written when it is alleged to have been written. Agreed?

[Nessie]

The old ramp was not in any of the camps, so that can't be it. The only possible candidate is the new ramp that lead directly into Birkenau and passed by the enclosed areas of Crematoria II and III.

The chronology is wrong for it to be that ramp.

https://fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/contro ... recis.html

"REPORT by SS Stubaf FRANKE-GRIKSCH on a journey through Poland during the period 4 - 16 May '43"

https://www.auschwitz.org/en/history/au ... elections/

"The third ramp was built from 1943 inside the Birkenau camp, and went into operation in May 1944 in connection with the anticipated arrival of transports of Hungarian Jews. The railroad spur along this ramp ran as far as gas chambers and crematoria II and III."

Precisely. Finally we agree on something. So the report clearly could not have been written when it is alleged to have been written. Agreed?

No, though I now see I am wrong about where the ramp and unloading he described was. He is describing Birkenau and the gas chambers there.

https://www.auschwitz.org/en/history/au ... s-chambers

"The construction of 4 large gas chambers and crematoria began in Birkenau in 1942. They went into operation between March 22 and June 25-26, 1943."

I thought they were still being constructed in May 1943, but at least one was operational by then. That fits with the construction office documents from March and April 1943, about the fitting of gas tight doors etc.

[curioussoul]

The chronology is wrong for it to be that ramp.

https://fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/contro ... recis.html

"REPORT by SS Stubaf FRANKE-GRIKSCH on a journey through Poland during the period 4 - 16 May '43"

https://www.auschwitz.org/en/history/au ... elections/

"The third ramp was built from 1943 inside the Birkenau camp, and went into operation in May 1944 in connection with the anticipated arrival of transports of Hungarian Jews. The railroad spur along this ramp ran as far as gas chambers and crematoria II and III."

Precisely. Finally we agree on something. So the report clearly could not have been written when it is alleged to have been written. Agreed?

No, though I now see I am wrong about where the ramp and unloading he described was. He is describing Birkenau and the gas chambers there.

Right, so how was he able to describe something that was constructed in May 1944, in 1943? Would it be fair to say that this anachronism undermines the credibility of the 'report'?

[Nessie]

Precisely. Finally we agree on something. So the report clearly could not have been written when it is alleged to have been written. Agreed?

No, though I now see I am wrong about where the ramp and unloading he described was. He is describing Birkenau and the gas chambers there.

Right, so how was he able to describe something that was constructed in May 1944, in 1943? Would it be fair to say that this anachronism undermines the credibility of the 'report'?

No, since I have provided evidence the ramp and an operational Krema gas chambers existed in 1943, when he visited the camp.

[curioussoul]

No, though I now see I am wrong about where the ramp and unloading he described was. He is describing Birkenau and the gas chambers there.

Right, so how was he able to describe something that was constructed in May 1944, in 1943? Would it be fair to say that this anachronism undermines the credibility of the 'report'?

No, since I have provided evidence the ramp and an operational Krema gas chambers existed in 1943, when he visited the camp.

Right, so how could the train be routed into the camp for immediate extermination in 1943 when that spur didn't exist until 1944?

[Hans]

Exactly. The new ramp went straight into the Birkenau camp with a track crossing right between the two Crematoria, which were enclosed. The old ramp didn't even go into a camp, let alone into 'dedicated enclosed areas of the camp'. This anachronism demonstrates the report couldn't possibly date from when it is alleged to have been written.

The old ramp was actually within the administrative district concentration camp.

It was special tracks, it was in the camp area and it was separated from Auschwitz-Birkenau and Auschwitz main camp. From the perspective of a visitor in 1943, the old ramp could indeed have been seen as "special tracks in specially designated districts of the camp".

No, it really could not, since the "Alte Judenrampe" neither went into any of the camps (it literally stopped midway between Birkenau and Auschwitz Main Camp, after which you'd have to walk by foot or drive to the camps) nor was it a "dedicated enclosed area of the camp". And in no way was it a "special track" since it was part of the old rail line. I can't find any evidence it was even enclosed.

Once again: the "old Jew ramp" was inside the Auschwitz camp complex - this a matter of administrative record. It was not inside the barbed-wire enclosures of Auschwitz I or Birkenau, but that’s irrelevant. The Auschwitz camp in Nazi terminology referred to the "area of interest", which was a vast zone that included the main camp, Birkenau, subcamps, SS barracks, workshops, agricultural enterprises, and yes, the old ramp.

See this map dated October 1943 (with old ramp encircled by me):



On April 10, 1943, the Gauleiter of Upper Silesia, Fritz Bracht, issued a decree that formally defined the borders of Auschwitz town and also already mentioned the "newly formed administrative district concentration camp" (Amtsblatt der Regierung Kattowitz, Stück 15, 1943). The district with Höss as district leader was outlined in his decree of 15 June 1943 with an area corresponding to the SS designated "area of interest of the Auschwitz concentration camp" (with the exception of the Auschwitz train station, which had previously been claimed by the SS but was now defined to the civil administration of the town).

This shows you how the govermement and the SS viewed the camp’s extent - not by fencing, but by function and control.

In the long report on their trip, Franke-Gricksch describes Auschwitz as "the biggest concentration camp in Germany" covering "about 18,000 morgen". That's more than 40 km² - way more than the area of fenced, enclosed main and sub-camps. His description is entirely consistent with the definition of the Auschwitz complex at the time and thus it is entirely reasonable to assume that he was told that the ramp for the Jewish transports was located within the camp area.

The term "special tracks" does not require anything to be newly constructed specifically for that purpose. The tracks and the ramp functioned as a dedicated unloading point for prisoners deported to the camp. This is was made them "special". This is not about rail engineering, but about the function of the site from a operational standpoint.

Whether the ramp was physically "enclosed" with fencing or not is beside the point. The Franke-Gricksch report does not say it was fenced off. It says it was separated, which may refer to geographical, organizational, or functional separation - not necessarily fencing.

[curioussoul]

The old ramp was actually within the administrative district concentration camp.

It was special tracks, it was in the camp area and it was separated from Auschwitz-Birkenau and Auschwitz main camp. From the perspective of a visitor in 1943, the old ramp could indeed have been seen as "special tracks in specially designated districts of the camp".

No, it really could not, since the "Alte Judenrampe" neither went into any of the camps (it literally stopped midway between Birkenau and Auschwitz Main Camp, after which you'd have to walk by foot or drive to the camps) nor was it a "dedicated enclosed area of the camp". And in no way was it a "special track" since it was part of the old rail line. I can't find any evidence it was even enclosed.

Once again: the "old Jew ramp" was inside the Auschwitz camp complex - this a matter of administrative record. It was not inside the barbed-wire enclosures of Auschwitz I or Birkenau, but that’s irrelevant. The Auschwitz camp in Nazi terminology referred to the "area of interest", which was a vast zone that included the main camp, Birkenau, subcamps, SS barracks, workshops, agricultural enterprises, and yes, the old ramp. The term "special tracks" does not require anything to be newly constructed specifically for that purpose. The tracks and the ramp functioned as a dedicated unloading point for prisoners deported to the camp. This is was made them "special". This is not about rail engineering, but about the function of the site from a operational standpoint.

Whether the ramp was physically "enclosed" with fencing or not is beside the point. The Franke-Gricksch report does not say it was fenced off. It says it was separated, which may refer to geographical, organizational, or functional separation - not necessarily fencing.

This is hysterical. Franke-Griksch had visited Birkenau and spoke of special, dedicated tracks leading into enclosed areas of the camp where the Jews were dropped off for immediate gassing (the same claim was made for Buchenwald, with train tracks leading straight to the gas chambers). These 'special tracks' did not exist until a year after Franke-Griksch supposedly visited the camp. Whether or not the old unloading ramp outside the camp perimeter technically made up part of the 'administrative district concentration camp' is of complete irrelevance, because that unloading ramp was not inside any of the two camps nor were the tracks leading there special in any way, and whether or not this unloading ramp was "enclosed" is still up in the air. I've found no support for that claim.

It's baffling to me that even in clear-cut cases of obvious fraud you'll insist it's somehow real, no matter the logical leaps required to sustain your narrative. What's even more ridiculous in the case of Franke-Griksch is that there exists a real Franke-Griksch report without the fraudulent Holocaust nonsense. If you had any integrity left you'd concede this point like any sane person would.

[Hans]

No, it really could not, since the "Alte Judenrampe" neither went into any of the camps (it literally stopped midway between Birkenau and Auschwitz Main Camp, after which you'd have to walk by foot or drive to the camps) nor was it a "dedicated enclosed area of the camp". And in no way was it a "special track" since it was part of the old rail line. I can't find any evidence it was even enclosed.

Once again: the "old Jew ramp" was inside the Auschwitz camp complex - this a matter of administrative record. It was not inside the barbed-wire enclosures of Auschwitz I or Birkenau, but that’s irrelevant. The Auschwitz camp in Nazi terminology referred to the "area of interest", which was a vast zone that included the main camp, Birkenau, subcamps, SS barracks, workshops, agricultural enterprises, and yes, the old ramp. The term "special tracks" does not require anything to be newly constructed specifically for that purpose. The tracks and the ramp functioned as a dedicated unloading point for prisoners deported to the camp. This is was made them "special". This is not about rail engineering, but about the function of the site from a operational standpoint.

Whether the ramp was physically "enclosed" with fencing or not is beside the point. The Franke-Gricksch report does not say it was fenced off. It says it was separated, which may refer to geographical, organizational, or functional separation - not necessarily fencing.

This is hysterical. Franke-Griksch had visited Birkenau and spoke of special, dedicated tracks leading into enclosed areas of the camp where the Jews were dropped off for immediate gassing (the same claim was made for Buchenwald, with train tracks leading straight to the gas chambers).

Franke-Gricksch visited the entire Auschwitz complex.

At no point does he state that the "special tracks" led into the Birkenau camp. You are projecting what you would like the text to say so it fits your narrative of a supposed "anachronism." Nor is it in the text that the "Jews were dropped off for immediate gassing". The report doesn’t does not say how long victims waited, nor how far they were from the gas chambers. Or that the special tracks were fenced off.

You’re manufacturing details that simply aren’t there.

If you're going to argue forgery, at least argue from the actual content of the report - not from the imaginary version you'd prefer existed.

[curioussoul]

Once again: the "old Jew ramp" was inside the Auschwitz camp complex - this a matter of administrative record. It was not inside the barbed-wire enclosures of Auschwitz I or Birkenau, but that’s irrelevant. The Auschwitz camp in Nazi terminology referred to the "area of interest", which was a vast zone that included the main camp, Birkenau, subcamps, SS barracks, workshops, agricultural enterprises, and yes, the old ramp. The term "special tracks" does not require anything to be newly constructed specifically for that purpose. The tracks and the ramp functioned as a dedicated unloading point for prisoners deported to the camp. This is was made them "special". This is not about rail engineering, but about the function of the site from a operational standpoint.

Whether the ramp was physically "enclosed" with fencing or not is beside the point. The Franke-Gricksch report does not say it was fenced off. It says it was separated, which may refer to geographical, organizational, or functional separation - not necessarily fencing.

This is hysterical. Franke-Griksch had visited Birkenau and spoke of special, dedicated tracks leading into enclosed areas of the camp where the Jews were dropped off for immediate gassing (the same claim was made for Buchenwald, with train tracks leading straight to the gas chambers).

Franke-Gricksch visited the entire Auschwitz complex.

At no point does he state that the "special tracks" led into the Birkenau camp. You are projecting what you would like the text to say so it fits your narrative of a supposed "anachronism." Nor is it in the text that the "Jews were dropped off for immediate gassing". The report doesn’t does not say how long victims waited, nor how far they were from the gas chambers. Or that the special tracks were fenced off.

You’re manufacturing details that simply aren’t there.

If you're going to argue forgery, at least argue from the actual content of the report - not from the imaginary version you'd prefer existed.

The year was 1943. The Main Camp crematorium was out of commission and all gassings allegedly took place inside Birkenau. The fact he talks about special train tracks leading into enclosed areas of the camp should tell you everything you need to know to determine that he's talking about unloadings, selections and gassings in Birkenau according to the standard gassing narrative. If the selection and gassing procedure actually involved a long hike into Birkenau, you'd think he'd bring that up? Now, if this report had actually surfaced and been made public in 1943, maybe there's an argument to be made that he was confused or made a massive blunder for whatever reason. But this supposed 'report' surfaced decades after the war and with questionable provenance. The fact it contains such a massive anachronism alongside numerous other errors should tell any serious person that it's not a genuine document.

I'm baffled you're still going. But it's entertainment for the readers, I suppose.