How Can Such a Strong Consensus Be So Wrong for so Long?

[Callafangers]

That response was so unwarranted. I don't pretend to have all the answers. I use ChatGPT as a research tool, which I have never denied, to do research on arguments point by point. I have already learned a lot very quickly by going through this. If you have a counterpoint, I am strongly encouraging you to present it.

AI happens to be very disruptive because a lot of people with "expert knowledge" such as doctors and lawyers and historians will soon be rendered obsolete and proven to be incompetent with this new technology.

The dialectical process is very important because it shows you where each person may have blindspots and makes both sides of the argument stronger.

I am not blindly copying LLM responses. I go through it, closely evaluate each response, and counter with the best arguments and evidence that I find. It can be a bit annoying to read text like that which I can edit stylistically I guess but it is a red herring since I'm focused on the information and logic.

Your very obvious Jew hatred clearly undermines the credibility of your arguments. Stubble at least admitted his bias but to find truth you need to consciously struggle to overcome natural biases rather than feed information that will reinforce them.

No, it definitely wasn't 'unwarranted', and you have been incredibly disingenuous here. I've never encountered someone so obviously deceptive on this forum or any other, perhaps ever; much like a child caught with his hand in the cookie jar and still denying it. bombsaway's first debut was more believable than you are.

Feel free to educate yourself via ChatGPT. Many of us do, to an extent, even though its extremely biased (see here: https://codoh.com/library/document/ai-t ... visionism/). The problem is when you are not able to speak to and defend the things you are posting, or when you circumvent challenges already posed to you (and/or when it becomes increasingly clear that you're relying more and more on ChatGPT as the topics venture further into more advanced concepts and debate). Your circumventing these challenges may be due to your own ignorance, deliberate avoidance, or a lack of fundamental understanding of the key issues such that you don't even know how to respond. Whatever the case may be, relaying ChatGPT's answers cannot save you, there. You need to actually understand these issues yourself before it makes any sense at all for you to say (or copy-paste) a word on them. And no one is going to be convinced that you are "there" when you literally just entered into this topic less than one week ago.

Your stupid terms like "Jew hatred" are obnoxious gaslighting -- no one cares. If you really think the world is going to continue believing there is no valid grievance against Jews in general from their host nations, you're in for a very rude awakening in the coming years.

[Nessie]

...

Lol at you trying to spin the euthanasia order. The existence of the euthanasia order is a big problem for you because you have to come up with excuses why the much larger extermination of the Jews lacks such documentation even though it would have required a far larger operation.

Or, because it was such a huge operation, it was best dealt with by various smaller operations. Hence, the Einsatzgruppen, AR, Chelmno and the Hungarian action. How Jews were dealt with varied country to country, depending on that country's level of cooperativeness. The Romanian and Serbia authorities murdered their own Jewish citizens. The Latvians and Lithuanians provided a lot of assistance to the EG. All of that is documented, we know who was responsible.

So-called revisionists cannot provide any evidence of the massive operation that would have been needed to transport and accommodate millions of Jews sent to places such as Babi Yar and TII, who they allege were not mass murdered. They cannot name the Nazis, or the department responsible for a such a huge operation, that would have been resource intensive. For a start, where did all the guards come from?

This lacks documentation claim, is pure deflection.

[Nessie]

...

Most of what your AI-generated above text says is subjective: a 'large body', 'evidence', not to mention the mere assumption that it is T4 being more "centralized and bureaucratically controlled" that explains its available evidence (in contrast with non-evidence for a 'Holocaust').

What about the actual non-evidence of the accommodation of millions of Jews, arrested 1939-44, in 1944? Where were the millions of Jews sent to Chelmno, the AR camps and A-B in 1944? Where were the millions of Jews put into ghettos across Eastern Europe living in 1944, after the last ghetto at Lodz closed down?

T-4 may be an important seed in the 'Holocaust' narrative, but lacks contiguity toward any notion of the 'Holocaust' as credible or realistic.

It evidences motive, and the link between T4 and AR provides chronology of the development of the policy to murder.

[Nessie]

It is no coincidence that experienced, trained historians have reached an evidenced consensus, whereas inexperienced, untrained so-called revisionists have failed to reach an evidenced consensus.

[Stubble]

Looking over 'Fangers post, I see that CJ still can't keep my name out of his mouth.

So far as my bias, I'd have to forgive at least 6,000,000 lies to remove it. I'm not going to do that.

I also can't help but notice that CJ never did pick a cohort of jews to search for (likely because he knows the methodology used to extrapolate 5,100,000 victims is extremely flawed and that part of the problem with doing that is that those 'victims' never had names or birthdays but rather are simply assumed 1) to have legitimately existed 2) are assumed to have been murdered by 'Hitlerite Fascists').

Instead, economics and racial ideology became the pivot.

This is the type of dishonesty that I find abhorrent. The riding out of a plank until it becomes unstable and then to simply step on to another plank without addressing the problems with previous footing that lead to the change of attack.

There is no honest inquiry in him, only attack. Nothing has been read, nothing learned.

He stands on the shoulders of ChatGPT to bolster his objection to the facts without even comprehending the issue. There is a reinforced ignorance in him I do not believe he will ever overcome.

To switch from 'where'd they go' to, 'it wasn't jewish confetti, you're a racist' (I am indeed a racist, that has nothing however to do with my argument) while ignoring money houses and who ran them is a type of cognitive dissonance I can not abide. It is intellectually dishonest and it is an attempt to smear the other side without even having to address the issues.

It is a tactic from 'rules for radicals' that has been used to defend the indefensible for 50 years. If you can't defend your position attack the other party personally. It is a weapon of distraction.

https://archive.org/details/RulesForRad ... AlinskyOCR


To pretend to be ignorant of the hand of the jew in the finance of prewar Germany and in their economic troubles is disingenuous. To ignore the stab in the back (I again point to the Willard Hotel Speech and remind you that Benjamin Freedman was at the signing, with a congress of jews, because they had a seat at the table for pulling England across the finish line by getting America to declare war on Germany, a theme that has run through 2 world wars) is to ignore the facts of history.





I'm sure this will lead to some kind of engagement from CJ. I remind CJ, because of his duplicitous behavior I will not be reading his posts.

'jews didn't create Weimar conditions'. Yes they did. The degenerative cultural rot, the devaluation and debasement of the currency, the robbery of the land, their hand was firmly in it, with a finger dipped in each ill.

'A rootless international clique' of 'hyenas'.



(Unfortunately this appears to simply be a clip from 'Freedom or Slavery', the speech in it's entirety is worth a listen, I can not find the whole speech in English on bitchute)

https://odysee.com/@thisworldworks:1/Ad ... c%29.mp4:1

There is also this one from the dynamo plant;

I'll look for a full version.

https://odysee.com/@SouloftheLost:c/1_5 ... 63014964:9

One more for good measure;

https://odysee.com/@AvaWolfe:d/Are-you- ... lundered:7

Edits: added speeches and added a copy of Saul Alinski's 'Rules for Radicals'. Of note, the tactic is also part of 'critical theory'. To expound just a bit, critical theory is why the left always experiences a purity spiral and always eats itself. Also added the Willard Hotel Speech and the Zundel interview from Benjamin Freedman.

[borjastick]

Indeed Stubble Rules for Radicals applies very neatly to the tactics employed by CJ and the Fish Fryer.

Read these rules here and then apply them to what these chaps do day in day out. I am actually beginning to think CJ isn't just one person and could even be an AI type thing.

https://bolenreport.com/saul-alinskys-1 ... -radicals/

Guessing Saul Alinsky was a holocaust and zionist believing jew.

Born in Chicago to Russian Jewish emigres in 1909, Alinsky was so fed up with social injustice, inequality, and racism, that he invented modern community organizing.

https://www.jta.org/jewniverse/2016/the ... ie-sanders

[Nessie]

... those 'victims' never had names or birthdays but rather are simply assumed 1) to have legitimately existed 2) are assumed to have been murdered by 'Hitlerite Fascists').

The irony is strong when you make that claim and then say...

This is the type of dishonesty that I find abhorrent.

Walk around the streets of Berlin, and there are many plaques on the pavement. They are outside the houses where German Jews had lived, until they were arrested and sent to camps and ghettos. Their names, date of arrest the place they were sent to is recorded on each plaque. At the Riga ghetto museum, that is in part of what was the ghetto used by the Nazis, there is a huge list of names, of the German Jews transported there. All over Nazi occupied Europe, there are memorials to Jews arrested by the Nazis, few of whom ever returned home.

The Dutch National Archive has the list of names of the 34,131 Jews sent on transports to Sobibor in 1943. A search of the Hungarian archives and the Jews sent to A-B in 1944 can be found. Bad Arolsen, USHMM and Yad Vashem all have searchable databases. There are numerous databases for the Nazi ghettos, for example;

https://www.jewishgen.org/databases/holocaust/

" Lvov Ghetto Database
Names of over 10,000 Jews in the Ghetto of Lwów Poland, 1942-1945.
Krak w Ghetto Database
Names of over 19,000 Jews in the Ghetto of Kraków Poland, in 1940.
Pinsk Ghetto List, 1942
Data on over 18,000 Jews in the Pinsk ghetto in late 1941 or 1942.
Vilna Ghetto: Lists of Prisoners
Over 15,000 Vilnius Ghetto prisoners, from a census of Lithuania in May 1942."

It is a lie, on an epic scale, that these people are assumed to have existed and assumed to have been murdered. There is a ton of evidence to prove murders. That so-called revisionists will lie so easily and readily, about the scale of the evidence, is how they fool themselves into believing the ridiculous denial hoax.

[Stubble]

Nessie, I in no way deny that jews died or that some jews were even killed. The issue is with both scale and scope.

It was not an extermination and there were never 6,000,000 jews in German hands, what's less 6,000,000 murdered.

The shoah is certainly a dark page in human history as is the rest of ww2 as a whole, but it never was a 'whole burnt offering'.

[ConfusedJew]

Feel free to educate yourself via ChatGPT. Many of us do, to an extent, even though its extremely biased (see here: https://codoh.com/library/document/ai-t ... visionism/). The problem is when you are not able to speak to and defend the things you are posting, or when you circumvent challenges already posed to you (and/or when it becomes increasingly clear that you're relying more and more on ChatGPT as the topics venture further into more advanced concepts and debate).

I'm able to defend my positions. If you identify a flawed argument or piece of evidence, then I will admit that you were right or partially right. There may be subjective differences which is fine.

Your circumventing these challenges may be due to your own ignorance, deliberate avoidance, or a lack of fundamental understanding of the key issues such that you don't even know how to respond. Whatever the case may be, relaying ChatGPT's answers cannot save you, there. You need to actually understand these issues yourself before it makes any sense at all for you to say (or copy-paste) a word on them. And no one is going to be convinced that you are "there" when you literally just entered into this topic less than one week ago.

I was a professional research analyst and I still a research analyst but I'm doing it now in a non professional capacity. Even if you see something wrong then just simply point it out and I will address it. If I already had all of the answers and facts, there would be no point for me to be here at all but I assure you, there is no deliberate avoidance on my part unless I'm overly bombarded so I ask that people please be clear and concise in their answers.

Your stupid terms like "Jew hatred" are obnoxious gaslighting -- no one cares. If you really think the world is going to continue believing there is no valid grievance against Jews in general from their host nations, you're in for a very rude awakening in the coming years.

Those kinds of comments are abusive which are against your own rules on this forum of which you seem to moderate it. Why did you create and/or adopt those rules if you won't abide by them?

Stick to the arguments. Do not be gratuitously belligerent. We realize of course that this goes both ways, so the moderation team will make a reciprocal effort to protect you from excessive abuse.

How is it gaslighting when you are quite literally threatening bad consequences to me in the next sentence? Do you want Jews to be hurt and suffer? If not, wouldn't you like to address conflict in a civil way.

[Archie]

Those kinds of comments are abusive which are against your own rules on this forum of which you seem to moderate it. Why did you create and/or adopt those rules if you won't abide by them?

Stick to the arguments. Do not be gratuitously belligerent. We realize of course that this goes both ways, so the moderation team will make a reciprocal effort to protect you from excessive abuse.

How is it gaslighting when you are quite literally threatening bad consequences to me in the next sentence? Do you want Jews to be hurt and suffer? If not, wouldn't you like to address conflict in a civil way.

Well, what do you expect when you wind people up?

How about you read ALL of the forum rules and not just cherrypick?

"Maintain a high signal to noise ratio, i.e., make sure your posts are informative and that they make a meaningful addition to the discussion. High noise posting is especially unwelcome on the Debate board."

Hmm, how are you doing on this one? Do you think your nearly 200 posts have been informative and made a "meaningful addition to the discussion"? Normally it would take months to rack up that many posts because most people only post when they have something to say.

You came on here because you were supposedly really curious about what revisionists think, but you've ignored everything that has been shared with you. Hence, most of us have concluded you are disingenuous and that your "just curious" posture was false.

You continue to bait people and then head for your fainting couch when they lose patience with you.

[Nessie]

Nessie, I in no way deny that jews died or that some jews were even killed. The issue is with both scale and scope.

It was not an extermination and there were never 6,000,000 jews in German hands, what's less 6,000,000 murdered.

The shoah is certainly a dark page in human history as is the rest of ww2 as a whole, but it never was a 'whole burnt offering'.

I have pointed and linked to just some of the sources of documentary evidence of millions of Jews arrested by the Nazis and sent to camps and ghettos. Other evidence includes the Wannsee Conference minutes, the Korherr Report and the Einsatzgruppen OSRs. Then there are all the national records.

Why would the Norwegians lie about the number of Jewish citizens who were arrested and transported out of Norway?

https://www.hlsenteret.no/utstillinger/ ... sh_13.html

" The systematic arrests of Norwegian Jews began on October 6, 1942 in Trondheim. On October 25, 1942 the head of the State Police Karl Alfred Marthinsen sent a cable to the local Norwegian police authorities ordering the arrest of all Jewish men aged 15 and above...The Jewish women and children were arrested on November 25 and 26, 1942. A total of 772 Jews were deported from Norway to the Auschwitz death camp, only 34 of whom survived. The remainder of the small Jewish community in Norway, which totalled about 2,100 persons on the eve of the war, survived by escaping to Sweden."

Why would Norway lie about that and the role the police and the government under Quisling, had in identifying and arresting Jews?

[Stubble]

Nessie, I in no way deny that jews died or that some jews were even killed. The issue is with both scale and scope.

It was not an extermination and there were never 6,000,000 jews in German hands, what's less 6,000,000 murdered.

The shoah is certainly a dark page in human history as is the rest of ww2 as a whole, but it never was a 'whole burnt offering'.

I have pointed and linked to just some of the sources of documentary evidence of millions of Jews arrested by the Nazis and sent to camps and ghettos. Other evidence includes the Wannsee Conference minutes, the Korherr Report and the Einsatzgruppen OSRs. Then there are all the national records.

Why would the Norwegians lie about the number of Jewish citizens who were arrested and transported out of Norway?

https://www.hlsenteret.no/utstillinger/ ... sh_13.html

" The systematic arrests of Norwegian Jews began on October 6, 1942 in Trondheim. On October 25, 1942 the head of the State Police Karl Alfred Marthinsen sent a cable to the local Norwegian police authorities ordering the arrest of all Jewish men aged 15 and above...The Jewish women and children were arrested on November 25 and 26, 1942. A total of 772 Jews were deported from Norway to the Auschwitz death camp, only 34 of whom survived. The remainder of the small Jewish community in Norway, which totalled about 2,100 persons on the eve of the war, survived by escaping to Sweden."

Why would Norway lie about that and the role the police and the government under Quisling, had in identifying and arresting Jews?

Take this to the at least 3 other threads it belongs in, again, and we can talk about each of the 3 points, again, in the appropriate venue, for clarity and continuity of argument and for thread cohesion.

[Nessie]

Nessie, I in no way deny that jews died or that some jews were even killed. The issue is with both scale and scope.

It was not an extermination and there were never 6,000,000 jews in German hands, what's less 6,000,000 murdered.

The shoah is certainly a dark page in human history as is the rest of ww2 as a whole, but it never was a 'whole burnt offering'.

I have pointed and linked to just some of the sources of documentary evidence of millions of Jews arrested by the Nazis and sent to camps and ghettos. Other evidence includes the Wannsee Conference minutes, the Korherr Report and the Einsatzgruppen OSRs. Then there are all the national records.

Why would the Norwegians lie about the number of Jewish citizens who were arrested and transported out of Norway?

https://www.hlsenteret.no/utstillinger/ ... sh_13.html

" The systematic arrests of Norwegian Jews began on October 6, 1942 in Trondheim. On October 25, 1942 the head of the State Police Karl Alfred Marthinsen sent a cable to the local Norwegian police authorities ordering the arrest of all Jewish men aged 15 and above...The Jewish women and children were arrested on November 25 and 26, 1942. A total of 772 Jews were deported from Norway to the Auschwitz death camp, only 34 of whom survived. The remainder of the small Jewish community in Norway, which totalled about 2,100 persons on the eve of the war, survived by escaping to Sweden."

Why would Norway lie about that and the role the police and the government under Quisling, had in identifying and arresting Jews?

Take this to the at least 3 other threads it belongs in, again, and we can talk about each of the 3 points, again, in the appropriate venue, for clarity and continuity of argument and for thread cohesion.

There is a consensus, due to the evidence, amongst historians, that millions of Jews were arrested. How can they be wrong? They are supported by every single country aligned to, or occupied by, the Nazis during WWII, whose archives contain the records of who was arrested, so there is also a consensus between governments. That is every single government, since 1945, no matter their politics.

That is a consensus which is hard to ignore, though you try as hard as you can. So, when you suggest millions of Jews were not arrested, you need to produce a lot of evidence to back up your claims. I have given you a heads start, by providing you with evidence that c1,300 Norwegian Jews avoided arrest, by escaping to Sweden.

[Stubble]

I beg your pardon Nessie?

I said there were not 6,000,000 under German control.

That's a far cry from saying more than one millions were never arrested.

I'm almost certain that this false parallel is part of some attempt at a strategy to give you some sort of 'ah-ha' moment. That will never happen for you.

Arrested =/= murdered in a homicidal gas chamber, cremated and the remains somehow concealed in such a way that literally nothing remains (cremains, name, number, birthday, etc) for millions of persons.

These people were not erased, they were never there.

That's something the consensus fails to account for.

[Nessie]

I beg your pardon Nessie?

I said there were not 6,000,000 under German control.

That's a far cry from saying more than one millions were never arrested.

So, how many do you say the Nazis arrested 1939-1944? Show your evidence.

I'm almost certain that this false parallel is part of some attempt at a strategy to give you some sort of 'ah-ha' moment. That will never happen for you.

Arrested =/= murdered in a homicidal gas chamber, cremated and the remains somehow concealed in such a way that literally nothing remains (cremains, name, number, birthday, etc) for millions of persons.

These people were not erased, they were never there.

That's something the consensus fails to account for.

The consensus is that there were millions of Jews arrested by the Nazis and other authorities assisting them.

https://www.yadvashem.org/righteous/sto ... round.html

"140,000 Jews were living in the Netherlands when the country was invaded by Germany in May 1940. Around 15,000 of them were Jews who had fled from Germany...By the time the last transport left in September 1944 a total of 107,000 Jews had been deported to the extermination camps."

https://www.yadvashem.org/holocaust/abo ... oland.html

"After the conquest of Poland by Germany and the Soviet Union in September 1939, most of the Jews remaining within the area occupied by Germany – approximately 1.8 million – were imprisoned in ghettos. In June 1941, after the German invasion of the Soviet Union, the Germans began to imprison the rest of Polish Jewry in ghettos and to deport them to concentration and slave labor camps."