Holocoaster of Auschwitz

[Nessie]

...Come on, Nessie. Think it through.

I have.

1 - your motive, agenda, is to disbelieve. Holocaust revisionism is really Holocaust denial. The mass murders did not happen and do not worry that the only alternative, which is millions of Jews still alive, somewhere, in 1944, is not evidenced. Do not worry that millions of people still alive would leave a lot of evidence. Instead, find reasons to deny that gassings, mass graves and cremations took place by finding them too incredible to have happened. Find mistakes and contradictions and make out they are lies of the people who are part of the hoax. Blame the Jews and the Soviets, they cannot be trusted.

2 - you lack experience and training in history and criminal investigations. That causes you to make a lot of mistakes, such as thinking witnesses and intelligence reports should be more accurate than they are. You cherry-pick evidence, which is not verified by corroboration, so you end up failing at the very basic task of any investigator, establishing what happened. You think that being asked to prove no gassings took place inside the Kremas is somehow reversing the burden of proof and that it is impossible to prove a negative. But, I know what to do, as would any historian or criminal investigator.

3 - you lack logical thinking skills. Clearly, there is a very heavy reliance on the illogical argument that because you cannot work out how the gas chambers, mass graves and cremations could have functioned, therefore they did not exist. You ignore that the Nazis destroyed as much evidence as they could, so we do not have accurate details about the chambers, pits and ovens. It is not possible to work out the details, when the details do not exist. Your speculations, which get dressed up as scientific analysis, are flawed, because they rely too much on estimations and there are too many knowledge gaps. You cannot argue history or crime, you have to be able to evidence it.

Hence, when confronted with the Vrba report, you home in on a mistake, as if that somehow discredits the entire report and reveals it to be a fiction. Trollies on rails becomes a roller coaster, as you want the narrative to be so ridiculous as to be unbelievable.

[Nessie]

Source is extremely specific in that the tracks and trolleys are in Kremas II and III.

The reality is that these stories are completely made up and the whole eyewitness vs hearsay distinction is of no importance whatsoever. It doesn't matter whether the story was made up by someone who personally worked in the Kremas or not.

There is physical and documentary evidence of a trolley and rail system at Krema I. Therefore, testimony about trolleys on rails is not necessarily completely made up.

It is important to distinguish between eyewitness and hearsay, as eyewitness evidence is more likely to be accurate.

It is important to be able to determine how likely a claim is accurate or not.

A mistake about which Krema used trolleys and rails is nowhere near enough to bring the entirety of a report or testimony into doubt, especially when that mistake can be explained by the gathering of hearsay.

[Stubble]

You act as if the Auschwitz Protocols exist isolated in a vacuum and there are not other testimonies attesting to the holocoaster, and you minimize it and dismiss the whole thing saying 'well, it's just a little mistake'.

It's not.

[Archie]

Source is extremely specific in that the tracks and trolleys are in Kremas II and III.

The reality is that these stories are completely made up and the whole eyewitness vs hearsay distinction is of no importance whatsoever. It doesn't matter whether the story was made up by someone who personally worked in the Kremas or not.

There is physical and documentary evidence of a trolley and rail system at Krema I. Therefore, testimony about trolleys on rails is not necessarily completely made up.

It is important to distinguish between eyewitness and hearsay, as eyewitness evidence is more likely to be accurate.

It is important to be able to determine how likely a claim is accurate or not.

A mistake about which Krema used trolleys and rails is nowhere near enough to bring the entirety of a report or testimony into doubt, especially when that mistake can be explained by the gathering of hearsay.

Omg, are you seriously still trying to push the Krema I story?

The V-W story is that there there was a track

IN KREMAS II AND III

that went

FROM THE GAS CHAMBER

TO THE OVENS

This would be covering a significant distance and going across the three rooms, as shown in the diagram.

You are trying to claim that this is talking about the corpse loaders in Krema I. Uh, that was several kilometers away.
That's not even the right camp. And the "track" is what? Ten feet long? It's not at all the same thing as what is described in the V-W report which you are shockingly ignorant of. How have you been doing this for 10+ years and you still have never read so many basic sources?

[Archie]

...Come on, Nessie. Think it through.

I have.

1 - your motive, agenda, is to disbelieve. Holocaust revisionism is really Holocaust denial. The mass murders did not happen and do not worry that the only alternative, which is millions of Jews still alive, somewhere, in 1944, is not evidenced. Do not worry that millions of people still alive would leave a lot of evidence. Instead, find reasons to deny that gassings, mass graves and cremations took place by finding them too incredible to have happened. Find mistakes and contradictions and make out they are lies of the people who are part of the hoax. Blame the Jews and the Soviets, they cannot be trusted.

2 - you lack experience and training in history and criminal investigations. That causes you to make a lot of mistakes, such as thinking witnesses and intelligence reports should be more accurate than they are. You cherry-pick evidence, which is not verified by corroboration, so you end up failing at the very basic task of any investigator, establishing what happened. You think that being asked to prove no gassings took place inside the Kremas is somehow reversing the burden of proof and that it is impossible to prove a negative. But, I know what to do, as would any historian or criminal investigator.

3 - you lack logical thinking skills. Clearly, there is a very heavy reliance on the illogical argument that because you cannot work out how the gas chambers, mass graves and cremations could have functioned, therefore they did not exist. You ignore that the Nazis destroyed as much evidence as they could, so we do not have accurate details about the chambers, pits and ovens. It is not possible to work out the details, when the details do not exist. Your speculations, which get dressed up as scientific analysis, are flawed, because they rely too much on estimations and there are too many knowledge gaps. You cannot argue history or crime, you have to be able to evidence it.

Hence, when confronted with the Vrba report, you home in on a mistake, as if that somehow discredits the entire report and reveals it to be a fiction. Trollies on rails becomes a roller coaster, as you want the narrative to be so ridiculous as to be unbelievable.

This is an egregious dodge. The above is generic (and false) and fails to address any of the points under discussion.

For the details inside the Kremas he said his source was the Sonderkommandos. That is only one degree removed from firsthand.

Can you explain how the story deteriorated so dramatically after only one degree of separation from the Sonderkommandos? The Sonderkommandos presumably gave him the accurate story, right? And then Vrba inexplicably came up with a track and trolley car? And a doctor in a lab coat handing out soap and towels? Come on, Nessie. Think it through.

You didn't answer anything and launched into your usual spiel.

[Stubble]

#holocoaster_lies_matter

[Nessie]

The reality is that these stories are completely made up and the whole eyewitness vs hearsay distinction is of no importance whatsoever. It doesn't matter whether the story was made up by someone who personally worked in the Kremas or not.

There is physical and documentary evidence of a trolley and rail system at Krema I. Therefore, testimony about trolleys on rails is not necessarily completely made up.

It is important to distinguish between eyewitness and hearsay, as eyewitness evidence is more likely to be accurate.

It is important to be able to determine how likely a claim is accurate or not.

A mistake about which Krema used trolleys and rails is nowhere near enough to bring the entirety of a report or testimony into doubt, especially when that mistake can be explained by the gathering of hearsay.

Omg, are you seriously still trying to push the Krema I story?

The V-W story is that there there was a track

IN KREMAS II AND III

that went

FROM THE GAS CHAMBER

TO THE OVENS

This would be covering a significant distance and going across the three rooms, as shown in the diagram.

You are trying to claim that this is talking about the corpse loaders in Krema I. Uh, that was several kilometers away.
That's not even the right camp. And the "track" is what? Ten feet long? It's not at all the same thing as what is described in the V-W report which you are shockingly ignorant of. How have you been doing this for 10+ years and you still have never read so many basic sources?

I am saying that the claim is wrong about Kremas II and III.

I am saying that such a mistake is understandable, since Krema I did have trolleys on tracks and Tauber had this to say about Krema IV;

"Although a track for the trolleys was laid between the building and the pits, we never used it because the SS considered it to be inconvenient, so we had to drag the corpses straight from the gas chambers to the pits."

He also said about Krema II;

"The trolley for transporting the corpses was little used in Krematorium II."

But there is no mention of rails or any more about the trolley. You are wrong to condemn the entire report, because of an explainable error.

[Stubble]

Let me get this straight, so there is no confusion here.

Are you, here and now, saying that in Krema 1 at Auschwitz main camp, there was a trolly going from the gas chambers to the ovens?

[Nessie]

Let me get this straight, so there is no confusion here.

Are you, here and now, saying that in Krema 1 at Auschwitz main camp, there was a trolly going from the gas chambers to the ovens?

The 1941 plan of Krema I, showing rails and a turntable;

https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-his ... 0151.shtml

Tauber;

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=82890

"The day after our arrival at the crematorium (Kr I) an SS Unterscharführer (sergeant) whose name I forget gave us a pep talk...In the "boiler room" we put the corpses on a trolley with a high platform that ran on rails installed between the furnaces. This trolley went from the door of the bunker, where the corpses were, on a turntable that crossed the "boiler room" on broad rails. From these there ran narrower rails on which the trolley itself fitted, leading to each muffle. The trolley ran on four metal wheels."

Mueller;

"Coming from the room where I had been undressing corpses into the cremation room, there were two ovens on the left and four on the right. A depression roughly 20 to 25 centimetres deep and 1 metre wide ran across the room and in this rails had been laid. This track was about 15 metres long. Leading off from the main track were six branch rails, each 4 metres long, going straight to the ovens. On the main track was a turn-table which enabled a truck to be moved onto the branch tracks."

Corroborating evidence of the use of trolleys on rails. There are also photos of trolley's on rails from the Krema I display, though I do not know to what extent they are part of the reconstruction.



The 1944 air raid shelter plan shows outlines of rails at the ovens.

https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-his ... 0156.shtml

[Archie]

But there is no mention of rails or any more about the trolley. You are wrong to condemn the entire report, because of an explainable error.

That's not the only error.

You say it's "explainable" yet you've fail to explain it. There is no mention of the Stammlager crematorium ANYWHERE in the V-W report.

And you have dodged yet again.

For the details inside the Kremas he said his source was the Sonderkommandos. That is only one degree removed from firsthand.

Can you explain how the story deteriorated so dramatically after only one degree of separation from the Sonderkommandos? The Sonderkommandos presumably gave him the accurate story, right? And then Vrba inexplicably came up with a track and trolley car? And a doctor in a lab coat handing out soap and towels? Come on, Nessie. Think it through.

[Fred Ziffel]

Let me get this straight, so there is no confusion here.

Are you, here and now, saying that in Krema 1 at Auschwitz main camp, there was a trolly going from the gas chambers to the ovens?

Yes there was, I call them corpes loaders, see attached. The boom to the trolly no doubt had to poke into the doorway with the swinging door that you would find in an industrial kitchen. Two of the trollies most likely came from Birkenau 2 and 3

they had the same setup over at Crem 2 and 3

[Stubble]

The path for the trolly on Krema II? there appears to be back filled with concrete.

It was my understanding that the original bid had included this type of setup at II and III, but, that they had decided to use a litter instead, is this incorrect? Did they indeed use these loaders and this conveyance at Kremas II and III?

Also, thank you for the clarification on Krema I at Auschwitz main camp, I had missed this detail somehow.

[Nessie]

But there is no mention of rails or any more about the trolley. You are wrong to condemn the entire report, because of an explainable error.

That's not the only error.

You say it's "explainable" yet you've fail to explain it. There is no mention of the Stammlager crematorium ANYWHERE in the V-W report.

I have explained it. The Kremas all had trolleys on wheels, but not all had trolleys that used rails.

And you have dodged yet again.

For the details inside the Kremas he said his source was the Sonderkommandos. That is only one degree removed from firsthand.

Can you explain how the story deteriorated so dramatically after only one degree of separation from the Sonderkommandos? The Sonderkommandos presumably gave him the accurate story, right? And then Vrba inexplicably came up with a track and trolley car? And a doctor in a lab coat handing out soap and towels? Come on, Nessie. Think it through.

You have zero experience of witnesses giving statements and their memory and recall. Vrba and Wetzler recalled different details and notes were apparently lost, so they had to go from memory. Even once removed, is enough to make testimony hearsay and not allowed in court, because of the increased chances of inaccuracy.

You are desperate for excuses to disbelieve everything about the Kremas, so you find errors and make out that is evidence of a conspiracy to lie.

[Fred Ziffel]

The path for the trolly on Krema II? there appears to be back filled with concrete.

It was my understanding that the original bid had included this type of setup at II and III, but, that they had decided to use a litter instead, is this incorrect? Did they indeed use these loaders and this conveyance at Kremas II and III?

Also, thank you for the clarification on Krema I at Auschwitz main camp, I had missed this detail somehow.

Look to the lower right side, Yes I believed they did

From the main track to the oven entrance here is a slide I made some time back. Works like a train car. the tracks to the oven align the trolly with on the oven opening "X" axis

[Stubble]

A couple of things,

1) the cart runs in a depression in that still, and yet, in the photograph, the depression has been back filled.

2) what date is on the photograph that was the source for the motion picture still? I am not familiar enough with ground photos of the Kremas to identify it specifically.

3) the corpse loaders are distinctly absent in that photo.

I'll go do some rereading, perhaps I have a misconception about the use of litters as Kremas II and III. It is possible.