"Soviet reports are irrelevant" - only primary sources matter (Wrong)

[TlsMS93]

Your mindset is that if there are people with tickets to a show and the person is not located afterwards, it can only mean that they were gassed at the event and then cremated since the event did not document their departure. In other words, based on this circumstantial evidence, we must take the organizers to the scaffold.

[bombsaway]

Your mindset is that if there are people with tickets to a show and the person is not located afterwards, it can only mean that they were gassed at the event and then cremated since the event did not document their departure. In other words, based on this circumstantial evidence, we must take the organizers to the scaffold.

this seems to be a reply to my previous post here viewtopic.php?p=845#p846

Eh no, there's witness, documentary evidence (eg the Just Memo or FG report), and physical evidence (in the form of reports by examiners) at the the sites. The physical evidence could be considered circumstantial, it's direct evidence of mass body destruction at the sites, which is probably not a coincidence.

You say all this is evidence is cooked in some way, but you only have circumstantial evidence of a conspiracy, and there is circumstantial evidence to show 'no conspiracy'. Archie, have you found any witness testimony that would suggest killings along the scale of 2 million or whatever at Majdanek? (if there was a conspiracy to fabricate mass gassings at Majdanek, why didn't they get witnesses to attest to it like they did at Auschwitz/Reinhard camps/Chelmno?)

[TlsMS93]

It was actually directed at Nessie but it applies to anyone who wants to condemn someone using this argument but would not admit that something like this was used against them.

[bombsaway]

It was actually directed at Nessie but it applies to anyone who wants to condemn someone using this argument but would not admit that something like this was used against them.

I think objectively, only one side in this debate has direct evidence for their primary claims.

In addition to that, that probably millions of Jews "disappeared" in terms of paper trail/witness testimony is in my mind clearly stronger circumstantial evidence of their killing than any revisionist circumstantial evidence of mass skullduggery by both the Allies and the Soviets. This is debatable maybe, but how do you decide how strong circumstantial evidence is? This is the problem with basing arguments on circumstantial evidence, it allows for a lot of subjectivity and I think this is a major reason why historians are super wary about making assertions with such a basis.

[Nazgul]

probably millions of Jews "disappeared" in terms of paper trail/witness testimony is in my mind

Paper Jews tend to disappear; this is why they appear to be fabricated, you know the unexpected rise of population numbers by about 6 million in the early 1900s.

I have added a yellow line which roughly is the line of best fit from modern data back extrapolated to the 1880, one can see where the population of the Jews should be in 1939. The modern data shows a linear rise in Jewish populations, which does fit with a simple algebraic forumula. Somehow, the Jewish population reached some unrealistic maximum in 1939. From 1880 to that point the slope of the graph is rather steep, (orange line) which is back extrapolated would mean no Jews existed at about the mid 600s, where the line reaches zero.


I discussed this with you and others at RODOH using my own graphs.

According to the Oxford Academic:

The world Jewish population more than doubled from 1700 to 1800, reaching 2.7 million. The next one hundred years witnessed a more than threefold increase, as the world Jewish population reached 8.7 million in 1900—and then doubled again by 1939.

This is a fabrication. Many Jews perished in WWI, the men conscripted (Sanning). Since 1945 to current times, the world Jewish population has risen roughly 4 million in 75 years or 53.5 thousand a year. Yet we are expected to believe that between 1700 - 1939 (230 years) the Jewish world births were 26 million or 113 thousand a year. What was in the water they were drinking I wonder; it certainly not in the water these days or since 1945. These figures do not take into regard the natural attrition by death, which would double the birth rate to maintain the population figures. In 230 years most of those people would have died.

[Nessie]

Nessie,

According to the calculations of the ChGK, around 32,000 public representatives took part in determining the facts about Nazi war crimes, and more than 7 million Soviet citizens directly collected and prepared documents for the ChGK, which in turn read through more than 54,000 statements and more than 250,000 protocols of witness interrogations and declarations of Nazi crimes, as well as approximately 4 million documents on the damage caused by the Nazis. The documentary evidence collected in the framework of the ChGK and the 27 published “Reports” were widely used in diplomatic notes of the Soviet People’s Commissariat of Foreign Affairs and at the various Allied peace conferences of the war years.

Citation: Marina Sorokina, "People and Procedures: Toward a History of the Investigation of Nazi Crimes in the USSR," Kritika: Explorations in Russian and Eurasian History 6, 4 (Fall 2005): 1–35 (quote from pg 5)

And just to further underscore the points I made earlier, only a very tiny number of these witness statements were ever published. Not only will they skew thing by coming in with predetermined conclusions about gas chambers etc they also presumably highlighted only those testimonies most in line with their narratives.

Are you alleging that hidden away are the testimonies of over a million Jews, who speak to being transited through the AR camps to camps in the east, whom the Soviets then liberated in 1944-5?

[Nessie]

Your mindset is that if there are people with tickets to a show and the person is not located afterwards, it can only mean that they were gassed at the event and then cremated since the event did not document their departure. In other words, based on this circumstantial evidence, we must take the organizers to the scaffold.

No. That they disappear from the records, is circumstantial evidence that corroborates the direct evidence of eyewitnesses to gassings. Corroborative evidence convicted the Nazis.

[Nazgul]

Are you alleging that hidden away are the testimonies of over a million Jews, who speak to being transited through the AR camps to camps in the east, whom the Soviets then liberated in 1944-5?

It appears that the transit through AR camps is mainly within your mind, and it is a hypothesis. Current information shows that Jews were sent back from the east to work in labour camps for Jews, especially as the course of the war changed.

Like Marian Olszuk a farmers son near Treblinka, who saw nothing, nor interviewed, so was the fate of the majority of Jews. Unless they had a damning story, no one was interested, they were not interviewed. Like Peter Lantos the majority, if they existed, walked out of their camps and into the cracks and shadows, also like Miss X.

[Nazgul]

That they disappear from the records, is circumstantial evidence that corroborates the direct evidence of eyewitnesses to gassings. Corroborative evidence convicted the Nazis.

We have been discussing millions of Polish records going missing, the existence which would support or fail to support current hypothesis, you are a part of that discussion. The missing records are highly correlated with the actions of the Extraordinary Commission activities. Who else could organize a systematic collection plan of documents, and hide or destroy. Show us where the nazis were convicted of gassing people, specifically Jews, as say against "crimes against humanity."

[TlsMS93]

probably millions of Jews "disappeared" in terms of paper trail/witness testimony is in my mind

Paper Jews tend to disappear; this is why they appear to be fabricated, you know the unexpected rise of population numbers by about 6 million in the early 1900s.

I have added a yellow line which roughly is the line of best fit from modern data back extrapolated to the 1880, one can see where the population of the Jews should be in 1939. The modern data shows a linear rise in Jewish populations, which does fit with a simple algebraic forumula. Somehow, the Jewish population reached some unrealistic maximum in 1939. From 1880 to that point the slope of the graph is rather steep, (orange line) which is back extrapolated would mean no Jews existed at about the mid 600s, where the line reaches zero.


I discussed this with you and others at RODOH using my own graphs.

According to the Oxford Academic:

The world Jewish population more than doubled from 1700 to 1800, reaching 2.7 million. The next one hundred years witnessed a more than threefold increase, as the world Jewish population reached 8.7 million in 1900—and then doubled again by 1939.

This is a fabrication. Many Jews perished in WWI, the men conscripted (Sanning). Since 1945 to current times, the world Jewish population has risen roughly 4 million in 75 years or 53.5 thousand a year. Yet we are expected to believe that between 1700 - 1939 (230 years) the Jewish world births were 26 million or 113 thousand a year. What was in the water they were drinking I wonder; it certainly not in the water these days or since 1945. These figures do not take into regard the natural attrition by death, which would double the birth rate to maintain the population figures. In 230 years most of those people would have died.

I've read somewhere that if it weren't for pogroms and the Holocaust, their population today would be over 200 million.

According to James Carroll, "The Jews comprised about 10% of the total population of the Roman Empire. By this ratio, if other factors did not interfere, there would be about 200 million Jews in the world today, instead of something like 13 million."

10%? It was around 60 million, look at the 6 million again.

[bombsaway]

probably millions of Jews "disappeared" in terms of paper trail/witness testimony is in my mind

Paper Jews tend to disappear; this is why they appear to be fabricated, you know the unexpected rise of population numbers by about 6 million in the early 1900s.

I have added a yellow line which roughly is the line of best fit from modern data back extrapolated to the 1880, one can see where the population of the Jews should be in 1939. The modern data shows a linear rise in Jewish populations, which does fit with a simple algebraic forumula. Somehow, the Jewish population reached some unrealistic maximum in 1939. From 1880 to that point the slope of the graph is rather steep, (orange line) which is back extrapolated would mean no Jews existed at about the mid 600s, where the line reaches zero.


I discussed this with you and others at RODOH using my own graphs.

According to the Oxford Academic:

The world Jewish population more than doubled from 1700 to 1800, reaching 2.7 million. The next one hundred years witnessed a more than threefold increase, as the world Jewish population reached 8.7 million in 1900—and then doubled again by 1939.

This is a fabrication. Many Jews perished in WWI, the men conscripted (Sanning). Since 1945 to current times, the world Jewish population has risen roughly 4 million in 75 years or 53.5 thousand a year. Yet we are expected to believe that between 1700 - 1939 (230 years) the Jewish world births were 26 million or 113 thousand a year. What was in the water they were drinking I wonder; it certainly not in the water these days or since 1945. These figures do not take into regard the natural attrition by death, which would double the birth rate to maintain the population figures. In 230 years most of those people would have died.

I was talking about the Jews in Nazi custody, eg Korherr's 1.5 million "transported into the Russian East".

Your population graphs are a separate story, and your evidence here of disappearing Jews is also circumstantial, and pretty silly. Population growth isn't linear. Eg Japan . The industrial revolution led to an enormous increase in population growth, which in recent times decreased a lot in advanced countries. Japan is currently losing population.