Holocoaster of Auschwitz

[Stubble]

Here is what it says in the text (WRB version). This is the procedure of Kremas I/II (which nowadays are usually called II/III).

A track leads from the gas chamber towards the furnace room.

The chamber is then opened, aired and the "special squad" carts the bodies on flat trucks to the furnace rooms where the burning takes place.

And here is the diagram.



The authors of this report clearly had the misimpression that everything was on the same floor, that the rooms had a linear arrangement, and that there was a track with little trolley cars or something to move the bodies. There wasn't. It's BS. Vrba quietly dropped this part in later versions of his story.

On the stand at the Zundel Trial he clearly pointed at Muller and other 'Sonderkommando' for that little jewel...

There are of course other mistakes by Muller, however, those are in the appropriate thread.

[Nessie]

That's quite the pivot.

While I understand that Vrba called Kremas II and III Kremas I and II, that is in no way what we are talking about.

The quote was from Tauber. Can you provide the name of your witness and evidence to prove which Krema he was referring to?

[Nessie]

Here is what it says in the text (WRB version). This is the procedure of Kremas I/II (which nowadays are usually called II/III).

A track leads from the gas chamber towards the furnace room.

The chamber is then opened, aired and the "special squad" carts the bodies on flat trucks to the furnace rooms where the burning takes place.

Have you checked to ensure what description is about which Krema?

And here is the diagram.

Was that report in English and did it originally contain that diagram? Who drew it?

The authors of this report clearly had the misimpression that everything was on the same floor, that the rooms had a linear arrangement, and that there was a track with little trolley cars or something to move the bodies. There wasn't. It's BS. Vrba quietly dropped this part in later versions of his story.

Everything was on the same floor, and there were trollies on rail, in Krema I. Have you checked to ensure which Krema is being described and if there is any sign of confusion between Kremas? Vrba was worked from hearsay and rumour, so you should expect errors and confusion. Dropping something that has been found to be inaccurate is correct investigatory procedure.

[Stubble]

Nessie, is Krema 1 situated in Auschwitz Birkenau, and does it have a mirror facility next to it?

Read the Auschwitz Protocols please, so we can debate source.

It's less than 20 pages...

Vrba was very clearly referring to Kremas II and III as Kremas I and II.

[Nessie]

Nessie, is Krema 1 situated in Auschwitz Birkenau, and does it have a mirror facility next to it?

Read the Auschwitz Protocols please, so we can debate source.

It's less than 20 pages...

Vrba was very clearly referring to Kremas II and III as Kremas I and II.

No more hearsay please, name and quote someone who worked inside Kremas II or III, who describes a trolley on wheels used to transport corpses from the gas chambers to the ovens.

[Archie]

Here is what it says in the text (WRB version). This is the procedure of Kremas I/II (which nowadays are usually called II/III).

A track leads from the gas chamber towards the furnace room.

The chamber is then opened, aired and the "special squad" carts the bodies on flat trucks to the furnace rooms where the burning takes place.

Have you checked to ensure what description is about which Krema?

And here is the diagram.

Was that report in English and did it originally contain that diagram? Who drew it?

The authors of this report clearly had the misimpression that everything was on the same floor, that the rooms had a linear arrangement, and that there was a track with little trolley cars or something to move the bodies. There wasn't. It's BS. Vrba quietly dropped this part in later versions of his story.

Everything was on the same floor, and there were trollies on rail, in Krema I. Have you checked to ensure which Krema is being described and if there is any sign of confusion between Kremas? Vrba was worked from hearsay and rumour, so you should expect errors and confusion. Dropping something that has been found to be inaccurate is correct investigatory procedure.

Stubble already explained it to you. V/W use different numbering in their report. It mentions Krema I and II but if you read the report it is obviously talking about the two large Kremas in Birkenau, not the old crematorium in the Stammlager. Your theory that it's talking about that super tiny "track" in the main camp crematorium is wrong.

The diagrams are found in early versions of the report. I believe Vrba has even commented on them. Your theory about the diagrams being added later by some random person is a cope. Nobody on either side argues that.

For the relevant part, see the pages labeled 12 and 13.
http://www.fdrlibrary.marist.edu/_resou ... l00522.pdf

[Nessie]

Here is what it says in the text (WRB version). This is the procedure of Kremas I/II (which nowadays are usually called II/III).

Have you checked to ensure what description is about which Krema?

And here is the diagram.

Was that report in English and did it originally contain that diagram? Who drew it?

The authors of this report clearly had the misimpression that everything was on the same floor, that the rooms had a linear arrangement, and that there was a track with little trolley cars or something to move the bodies. There wasn't. It's BS. Vrba quietly dropped this part in later versions of his story.

Everything was on the same floor, and there were trollies on rail, in Krema I. Have you checked to ensure which Krema is being described and if there is any sign of confusion between Kremas? Vrba was worked from hearsay and rumour, so you should expect errors and confusion. Dropping something that has been found to be inaccurate is correct investigatory procedure.

Stubble already explained it to you. V/W use different numbering in their report. It mentions Krema I and II but if you read the report it is obviously talking about the two large Kremas in Birkenau, not the old crematorium in the Stammlager. Your theory that it's talking about that super tiny "track" in the main camp crematorium is wrong.

Clearly, any claim about trollies on rails in any Krema other than Krema I is wrong. Have you got a named eyewitness who worked inside Kremas II or III who said there was a trolley on rails?

The diagrams are found in early versions of the report. I believe Vrba has even commented on them. Your theory about the diagrams being added later by some random person is a cope. Nobody on either side argues that.

For the relevant part, see the pages labeled 12 and 13.
http://www.fdrlibrary.marist.edu/_resou ... l00522.pdf

No, it is a common sense check, especially when dealing with highly unreliable revisionist claims. Vrba's evidence is hearsay, so him getting mixed up is not an issue.

[Archie]

Clearly, any claim about trollies on rails in any Krema other than Krema I is wrong. Have you got a named eyewitness who worked inside Kremas II or III who said there was a trolley on rails?

No, it is a common sense check, especially when dealing with highly unreliable revisionist claims. Vrba's evidence is hearsay, so him getting mixed up is not an issue.

So you think the V/W report is complete rubbish? Ok, great. You agree with revisionists.

In the foreword to the report it says, "No individual impressions or judgments are recorded and nothing is passed on from hear-say." I suppose you are conceding that this was a lie.

I have noticed you have a tendency to play down Vrba and say he wasn't an eyewitness, but in fact he claimed that he could see the Kremas from the mortuary in block 27 and says that he saw the SS men dropping in the Zyklon. He also claimed to have personally counted all the transports, etc.

He did not claim to have personally entered the Birkenau Kremas however he says he was in direct contact with the Sonderkommandos so his account would be very close to first-hand. And in his memoir he specifically mentions Filip Mueller as one of his sources.

Q. Sure. I now produce and show to you a diagram which came from, I suggest, your War Refugee Report of 1944 in which you depicted a crematoria. Correct?
A. That’s right.
Q. Is it accurate?
A. This I cannot say. It was said that as we were not in the large crematoria, we reconstructed it from messages which we got from members of the Sonderkommando working in that crematorium, and therefore, that approximately how it transpired in our mind, and in our ability to depict what we have heard.
Q. That is what you depicted, though?
A. Yes.
Q. And it is accurately depicting what you depicted?
A. That’s right. It is accurately depicting what I heard that it might look like. (Zundel Trial, Transcript page 1260)

So, he talked to the Sonderkommandos and he came away with a track and trolley cars.

[Stubble]

I'll look back over the Zundel minutes, I'm at least 90% sure Vrba name drops him right around your citation. I also may be able to dig up an interview he gave after the testimony to a news crew where he name drops him, but that's going to take me a while.

I need to go through and organize my archive of random holocaust shit.

[Nessie]

Clearly, any claim about trollies on rails in any Krema other than Krema I is wrong. Have you got a named eyewitness who worked inside Kremas II or III who said there was a trolley on rails?

No, it is a common sense check, especially when dealing with highly unreliable revisionist claims. Vrba's evidence is hearsay, so him getting mixed up is not an issue.

So you think the V/W report is complete rubbish? Ok, great. You agree with revisionists.

Straight in with a logical fallacy. You just cannot help yourself. If you started to think logically, you would not fall for the Holocaust denial hoax.

In the foreword to the report it says, "No individual impressions or judgments are recorded and nothing is passed on from hear-say." I suppose you are conceding that this was a lie.

Or a mistake. There is hearsay description of the inside of the Kremas, but at least it is not being described as if it had been seen.

I have noticed you have a tendency to play down Vrba and say he wasn't an eyewitness, but in fact he claimed that he could see the Kremas from the mortuary in block 27 and says that he saw the SS men dropping in the Zyklon. He also claimed to have personally counted all the transports, etc.

You really struggle with the incredibly simple concept of being inside, or outside, a building and that an eyewitness is an eyewitness to what they saw with their own eyes.

He did not claim to have personally entered the Birkenau Kremas however he says he was in direct contact with the Sonderkommandos so his account would be very close to first-hand. And in his memoir he specifically mentions Filip Mueller as one of his sources.

Which means he has clearly explained what is eyewitness and what is hearsay.

Q. Sure. I now produce and show to you a diagram which came from, I suggest, your War Refugee Report of 1944 in which you depicted a crematoria. Correct?
A. That’s right.
Q. Is it accurate?
A. This I cannot say. It was said that as we were not in the large crematoria, we reconstructed it from messages which we got from members of the Sonderkommando working in that crematorium, and therefore, that approximately how it transpired in our mind, and in our ability to depict what we have heard.
Q. That is what you depicted, though?
A. Yes.
Q. And it is accurately depicting what you depicted?
A. That’s right. It is accurately depicting what I heard that it might look like. (Zundel Trial, Transcript page 1260)

So, he talked to the Sonderkommandos and he came away with a track and trolley cars.

Which Krema are they talking about? It is clear that confusion has arisen over which Krema used the track and trollies, especially amongst so-called revisionists, which is hardly surprising.

[Stubble]

It's less than 20 pages Nessie, read it.

In the Auschwitz Protocols, they are very clearly claiming, that in the Kremas at Auschwitz Birkenau, that we refer to as Kremas II and III.

That is where they are saying the tracks are.

That us what that 'floor plan' represents.

[Archie]

It's less than 20 pages Nessie, read it.

In the Auschwitz Protocols, they are very clearly claiming, that in the Kremas at Auschwitz Birkenau, that we refer to as Kremas II and III.

That is where they are saying the tracks are.

That us what that 'floor plan' represents.

You know Nessie has lost this exchange badly when he has to fall back on his already debunked idea about it being the main camp crematorium. He's doing that thing bombsaway does where when a strong point has been made he just pretends not to understand it.

[Archie]

Nessie.

Look at this diagram.



It says Kremas I and II in BIRKENAU. It's not talking about the Stammlager crematorium. The full text, which I linked for you and which you are too lazy to read, makes it even more clear.

[Stubble]

This is actually the second time I have hit this exact wall with Nessie. I can't remember what thread it was in last time, but, it was a few months ago. It played out similarly, but, he appears to have added a new defense that Vrba was talking about Krema 1.

/shrug

To continue to hit the same walls, and then to explore and expound on them, seems like the definition of insanity.

Another user might be right, I might be stupidly tilting at every windmill there is. I'll try to reign it in. Part of my personality is to answer when asked. This can lead to responding to the same question, even if just phrased differently, over and over again. I'm starting to recognize the flaw in that.

I apologize for the slight thread drift, I wanted to put this on the record though, for clarity and continuity.

[Archie]

Here is the source for the Soviet conveyor belt story. It's from the Pravda newspaper, Feb 2, 1945, by Boris Polevoi. This was discovered by Faurisson in 1979. The Soviet captured Auschwitz on Jan 27, so this is actually the earliest Soviet account of Auschwitz. It is completely different from the main report they would publish later in May, USSR-8.

https://fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/Pravda020245.html

Last year, when the Red Army revealed to the world the terrible and abominable secrets of Majdanek, the Germans in Auschwitz began to wipe out the traces of their crimes. They leveled the mounds of the so-called "old" [3] graves in the Eastern [4] part of the camp, tore up and destroyed the traces of the electric conveyor belt, on which hundreds of people were simultaneously electrocuted, their bodies falling onto the slow moving conveyor belt which carried them to the top of the blast furnace [5] where they fell in, were completely burned, their bones converted to meal in the rolling mills, and then sent to the surrounding fields. In retreat were taken the special transportable apparatuses for killing children. The stationary gas chambers in the eastern part of the camp were restructured, even little turrets and other architectural embellishments were added so that they would look like innocent garages.