"Beliefs" aren't necessarily wrong (reply to Nessie)

[Nessie]

Mattogno has already irrefutably proven the impossibility of cremating a person with just 3.5 kg of coal. But for Nessie, some crazy formula that circumvented the laws of thermodynamics was hovering over that field in Lower Poland that caused millions to be cremated without documented fuel and without the need to renovate the refractory brick.

It's hard to debate with these exterminationists who only defend arguments, like a debate between believers and atheists.

You would maybe have a point if a Topf & Sons engineer had said that only 3.5kg of coal was needed, or a document recorded such. But no such definitive claim has been made. We do not know how much coal was needed, or used. There were witness reports of damage to the brickwork due to the high volume of cremations.

[Nessie]

Mattogno has already irrefutably proven the impossibility of cremating a person with just 3.5 kg of coal. But for Nessie, some crazy formula that circumvented the laws of thermodynamics was hovering over that field in Lower Poland that caused millions to be cremated without documented fuel and without the need to renovate the refractory brick.

It's hard to debate with these exterminationists who only defend arguments, like a debate between believers and atheists.

You misunderstand and he is going to quote from the nkvd interrogation (or was it smersh) of the engineer, that the bodies burn each other.

I could cite testimony that says you just use some straw and sticks to start the cremation ovens, then they just run on their own because people are somehow not the object of destruction in the scenario, but, also the fuel.

If you say you can't reconcile that because it's just so stupid, that, will be referred to as the 'argument from incredulity'.

It's just so very tiresome.

Just because you do not believe all the witness claims that as corpses caught fire, they then acted as fuel to spread and sustain the fire, does not therefore mean that cannot happen. The Topf & Sons engineers, Sonderkommados at A-B and SS camp staff and Sonderkommandos at the AR camps all say the same thing. That many witnesses, who would not collude, is strong corroborative evidence.

Human fat is flammable, and corpses are 20-30% fat. Decomposition also releases flammable gasses, so there are substances to sustain a fire.

[HansHill]

Let's try something novel. Nessie, I'm going to give you some credit here and I'm going to assume you don't believe this.



Can please explain to us why you don't believe this?

[Nessie]

....

You would object if I used the same form of argument and claimed because I can work out how the ovens could cremate so many, therefore they cremated hundreds of thousands of corpses. Neither of us can claim our opinion and calculations are so definitive, it acts as proof. Only evidence can prove.

Look at your last paragraph, then look at the title of the thread, then read the original post and tell me if anything stands out to you.

Or don't.

/shrug

You are going to claim that because it is not just mere belief, but belief that is backed by study and calculations, that revisionists are justified in not believing. That assumes revisionist study and calculations are correct and justified.

The revisionists is a more sophisticated form of argument from incredulity, than mere belief, but it is still logically flawed, as it makes too many assumptions.

[Nessie]

Let's try something novel. Nessie, I'm going to give you some credit here and I'm going to assume you don't believe this.



Can please explain to us why you don't believe this?

Because there is insufficient, indeed non-existent evidence from witnesses, documents, physical and forensic evidence to prove that human soap was made as claimed. No witness can be found who states they worked in a soap factory that used human fat. There is no Nazi document recording the processing of corpses, or delivery of fat to factories. There is no physical evidence of the factory, its location, the equipment used etc. There is no forensic testing of numerous bars of soap to determine they include human fat.

It is not my incredulity that determines my disbelief, it is the lack of evidence. I am driven by the evidence, not opinion. It is the same reason why I do not believe millions of Jews were resettled, rather than shot or gassed. There is no evidence from witnesses, documents etc, of millions of Jews alive in the camps and ghettos in 1944 and liberated in 1945.

[Stubble]

Mattogno has already irrefutably proven the impossibility of cremating a person with just 3.5 kg of coal. But for Nessie, some crazy formula that circumvented the laws of thermodynamics was hovering over that field in Lower Poland that caused millions to be cremated without documented fuel and without the need to renovate the refractory brick.

It's hard to debate with these exterminationists who only defend arguments, like a debate between believers and atheists.

You misunderstand and he is going to quote from the nkvd interrogation (or was it smersh) of the engineer, that the bodies burn each other.

I could cite testimony that says you just use some straw and sticks to start the cremation ovens, then they just run on their own because people are somehow not the object of destruction in the scenario, but, also the fuel.

If you say you can't reconcile that because it's just so stupid, that, will be referred to as the 'argument from incredulity'.

It's just so very tiresome.

Just because you do not believe all the witness claims that as corpses caught fire, they then acted as fuel to spread and sustain the fire, does not therefore mean that cannot happen. The Topf & Sons engineers, Sonderkommados at A-B and SS camp staff and Sonderkommandos at the AR camps all say the same thing. That many witnesses, who would not collude, is strong corroborative evidence.

Human fat is flammable, and corpses are 20-30% fat. Decomposition also releases flammable gasses, so there are substances to sustain a fire.

Your response was known before you even fielded it Nessie, I even outlined what you were going to say. That you didn't cite the interrogation does not negate the fact that you invoked it.

Further, you unironically believe this, just as there are people who adhere to the 'sardine method' as somehow not only plausible, but completely natural and beyond a need to question.

Again, it's just so tiresome.

[Stubble]

Let's try something novel. Nessie, I'm going to give you some credit here and I'm going to assume you don't believe this.



Can please explain to us why you don't believe this?

Because there is insufficient, indeed non-existent evidence from witnesses, documents, physical and forensic evidence to prove that human soap was made as claimed. No witness can be found who states they worked in a soap factory that used human fat. There is no Nazi document recording the processing of corpses, or delivery of fat to factories. There is no physical evidence of the factory, its location, the equipment used etc. There is no forensic testing of numerous bars of soap to determine they include human fat.

It is not my incredulity that determines my disbelief, it is the lack of evidence. I am driven by the evidence, not opinion. It is the same reason why I do not believe millions of Jews were resettled, rather than shot or gassed. There is no evidence from witnesses, documents etc, of millions of Jews alive in the camps and ghettos in 1944 and liberated in 1945.

You are actually wrong and if you review the evidence for human soap in the record, you will find the recipe (which wouldn't work, but that's never suspended your belief before), you will find testimony from people who worked there, and you will find that the location they worked at existed.

/shrug

You pick and choose which orthodox insanity to adhere to.

[Nessie]

.....

Just because you do not believe all the witness claims that as corpses caught fire, they then acted as fuel to spread and sustain the fire, does not therefore mean that cannot happen. The Topf & Sons engineers, Sonderkommados at A-B and SS camp staff and Sonderkommandos at the AR camps all say the same thing. That many witnesses, who would not collude, is strong corroborative evidence.

Human fat is flammable, and corpses are 20-30% fat. Decomposition also releases flammable gasses, so there are substances to sustain a fire.

Your response was known before you even fielded it Nessie, I even outlined what you were going to say. That you didn't cite the interrogation does not negate the fact that you invoked it.

Further, you unironically believe this, just as there are people who adhere to the 'sardine method' as somehow not only plausible, but completely natural and beyond a need to question.

Again, it's just so tiresome.

You are utterly convinced of your brilliance, that you think because you find something implausible and cannot work out how it could have happened, or are not satisfied with any explanation, then it cannot have happened. When your belief in your abilities are so great that even evidence an event took place is not enough for you, then it is no wonder you find this tiresome. How dare someone disgree with your brillance.

[HansHill]

Because there is insufficient, indeed non-existent evidence from witnesses, documents, physical and forensic evidence to prove that human soap was made as claimed. No witness can be found who states they worked in a soap factory that used human fat. There is no Nazi document recording the processing of corpses, or delivery of fat to factories. There is no physical evidence of the factory, its location, the equipment used etc. There is no forensic testing of numerous bars of soap to determine they include human fat.

It is not my incredulity that determines my disbelief, it is the lack of evidence. I am driven by the evidence, not opinion. It is the same reason why I do not believe millions of Jews were resettled, rather than shot or gassed. There is no evidence from witnesses, documents etc, of millions of Jews alive in the camps and ghettos in 1944 and liberated in 1945.

But there is evidence, including eye-witness, physical and documentary evidence.

Eye-witness: Morris Spitzer who testified to the human soap making. According to this Haaretz article: "Concentration camp survivors told stories of being handed soap to wash themselves"

Physical: Physical bars of soap were presented by the Soviets at Nuremberg with the charge that they were human soap. Additionally, the chamber of the Holocaust museum on Mount Zion in Jerusalem prominently displays a bar of soap purportedly made by the Nazis from the fat of Jewish corpses.

Documentary: Rabbi Stephen Wise pubhished accounts of Jew Soap as early as 1942, which would later be recounted and documented by the New York Times. Additionally, documentary evidence at Nuremberg, for example from this passage at (IMT, Vol. 1, p. 252):

“After cremation [of the victims of mass murder]
the ashes were used for fertilizer, and in some in-
stances attempts were made to utilize the fat from
the bodies of the victims in the commercial man-
ufacture of soap.”

So I'll ask you again - despite all the evidence, across multiple categories, to the contrary - why do you not believe this?

Haaretz source: https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/2020 ... cc1aa80000

[Nessie]

....

It is not my incredulity that determines my disbelief, it is the lack of evidence. I am driven by the evidence, not opinion. It is the same reason why I do not believe millions of Jews were resettled, rather than shot or gassed. There is no evidence from witnesses, documents etc, of millions of Jews alive in the camps and ghettos in 1944 and liberated in 1945.

You are actually wrong and if you review the evidence for human soap in the record, you will find the recipe (which wouldn't work, but that's never suspended your belief before), you will find testimony from people who worked there, and you will find that the location they worked at existed.

/shrug

You pick and choose which orthodox insanity to adhere to.

Please link me to that documentary, witness and physical evidence. I was unaware of it. However, the numbers of corpses claimed in the article are not true, because of the evidence of death tolls far lower than claimed, which primary comes from Nazi documents recording Jewish populations under their control.

[Stubble]

.....

Just because you do not believe all the witness claims that as corpses caught fire, they then acted as fuel to spread and sustain the fire, does not therefore mean that cannot happen. The Topf & Sons engineers, Sonderkommados at A-B and SS camp staff and Sonderkommandos at the AR camps all say the same thing. That many witnesses, who would not collude, is strong corroborative evidence.

Human fat is flammable, and corpses are 20-30% fat. Decomposition also releases flammable gasses, so there are substances to sustain a fire.

Your response was known before you even fielded it Nessie, I even outlined what you were going to say. That you didn't cite the interrogation does not negate the fact that you invoked it.

Further, you unironically believe this, just as there are people who adhere to the 'sardine method' as somehow not only plausible, but completely natural and beyond a need to question.

Again, it's just so tiresome.

You are utterly convinced of your brilliance, that you think because you find something implausible and cannot work out how it could have happened, or are not satisfied with any explanation, then it cannot have happened. When your belief in your abilities are so great that even evidence an event took place is not enough for you, then it is no wonder you find this tiresome. How dare someone disgree with your brillance.

No Nessie, I just cannot abide simply ingesting something stupid, and suspending my disbelief in something to make others happy.

Some of these claims, are just so very stupid, and yet, apparently, need to be dignified with a response. That response, however well outlined and evidenced, is never sufficient, because apparently, it happened so it was possible because it happened.

Again, tiresome.

[Nessie]

Because there is insufficient, indeed non-existent evidence from witnesses, documents, physical and forensic evidence to prove that human soap was made as claimed. No witness can be found who states they worked in a soap factory that used human fat. There is no Nazi document recording the processing of corpses, or delivery of fat to factories. There is no physical evidence of the factory, its location, the equipment used etc. There is no forensic testing of numerous bars of soap to determine they include human fat.

It is not my incredulity that determines my disbelief, it is the lack of evidence. I am driven by the evidence, not opinion. It is the same reason why I do not believe millions of Jews were resettled, rather than shot or gassed. There is no evidence from witnesses, documents etc, of millions of Jews alive in the camps and ghettos in 1944 and liberated in 1945.

But there is evidence, including eye-witness, physical and documentary evidence.

Eye-witness: Morris Spitzer who testified to the human soap making. According to this Haaretz article: "Concentration camp survivors told stories of being handed soap to wash themselves"

Physical: Physical bars of soap were presented by the Soviets at Nuremberg with the charge that they were human soap. Additionally, the chamber of the Holocaust museum on Mount Zion in Jerusalem prominently displays a bar of soap purportedly made by the Nazis from the fat of Jewish corpses.

Documentary: Rabbi Stephen Wise pubhished accounts of Jew Soap as early as 1942, which would later be recounted and documented by the New York Times. Additionally, documentary evidence at Nuremberg, for example from this passage at (IMT, Vol. 1, p. 252):

“After cremation [of the victims of mass murder]
the ashes were used for fertilizer, and in some in-
stances attempts were made to utilize the fat from
the bodies of the victims in the commercial man-
ufacture of soap.”

So I'll ask you again - despite all the evidence, across multiple categories, to the contrary - why do you not believe this?

Haaretz source: https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/2020 ... cc1aa80000

I will reply again, it is due to the insufficiency or non existence of evidence. You have linked me to an uncorroborated witness who I can find little detail of, reports of rumour and hearsay and Soviet provided physical evidence that has no provenance or testing. That is not enough to base a belief on.

[Stubble]

....

It is not my incredulity that determines my disbelief, it is the lack of evidence. I am driven by the evidence, not opinion. It is the same reason why I do not believe millions of Jews were resettled, rather than shot or gassed. There is no evidence from witnesses, documents etc, of millions of Jews alive in the camps and ghettos in 1944 and liberated in 1945.

You are actually wrong and if you review the evidence for human soap in the record, you will find the recipe (which wouldn't work, but that's never suspended your belief before), you will find testimony from people who worked there, and you will find that the location they worked at existed.

/shrug

You pick and choose which orthodox insanity to adhere to.

Please link me to that documentary, witness and physical evidence. I was unaware of it. However, the numbers of corpses claimed in the article are not true, because of the evidence of death tolls far lower than claimed, which primary comes from Nazi documents recording Jewish populations under their control.

Soap denier, how dare you dispute the number of soap victims!

[Nessie]

...

You are utterly convinced of your brilliance, that you think because you find something implausible and cannot work out how it could have happened, or are not satisfied with any explanation, then it cannot have happened. When your belief in your abilities are so great that even evidence an event took place is not enough for you, then it is no wonder you find this tiresome. How dare someone disgree with your brillance.

No Nessie, I just cannot abide simply ingesting something stupid, and suspending my disbelief in something to make others happy.

Some of these claims, are just so very stupid, and yet, apparently, need to be dignified with a response. That response, however well outlined and evidenced, is never sufficient, because apparently, it happened so it was possible because it happened.

Again, tiresome.

Yet again, your response misses out a very important word, a noun that refers to something essential to the accurate determination if something happened or not.

[TlsMS93]

You would maybe have a point if a Topf & Sons engineer had said that only 3.5kg of coal was needed, or a document recorded such. But no such definitive claim has been made. We do not know how much coal was needed, or used. There were witness reports of damage to the brickwork due to the high volume of cremations.

Robert Jan van Pelt drew the below conclusion from the above-mentioned file memo and the letter from the Auschwitz Central Construction Office dated June 28, 1943 (which attributes the absurd cremation capacity of 1,440 “persons” (sic) to each of Crematoria II and III, and 768 to each of Crematoria IV and V):

“The capacity of the crematoria was calculated on a 24-hour basis as being 1,440 for Crematoria 2 and 3 and 756 for Crematoria 4 and 5, or ([1,440 + 1,440 + 756 + 756]/24) = 183 corpses per hour. This implies that, according to Jährling, on average one needs (654.3/183) = 3,5 coke to incinerate one corpse.”

The small error (756 instead of 768) does not affect the result of the calculation, which is given as follows:

([1,440 + 1,440 + 768 + 768]/24) = 184 corpses per hour.

The hourly of consumption was (7,840 ÷ 12 =) 653.3 kg, so the requirement for one corpse was (653.3 ÷ 184 =) 3.55 kg of coke. This technically and empirically nonsensical consumption (it is six to seven times less than the actual consumption) moreover refers to the continuous operation of the furnaces, which van Pelt, with an inadmissible logical leap, considers to be valid for an entire year – which, as noted earlier, makes no sense, because even from the orthodox Holocaust perspective, there were many days during which no gassing/cremations are said to have been being carried out:

“as coke delivery in 1943 was around 844 tons, this would have allowed for the incineration of 241,000 bodies. According to Piper’s calculations based on transport lists, around 250,000 people died in Auschwitz in 1943.”

In practice, this would be a historical “confirmation” of the validity of the claimed consumption of 3.5 kg per corpse (844,000 ÷ 3.5 = 241,142).

By so doing, van Pelt effectively demolished the orthodox Holocaust narrative of mass gassings/cremations at Auschwitz-Birkenau, because even if we were to assume the incorrect figure of 844 tons of coke delivered, the result would be (844,000 kg ÷ 32.7 kg/corpse ≈) 25,800 cremated corpses!

In fact, as I documented in another study, in 1943 (from March 14 to October 25) merely 607 tons of coke were delivered to the crematoria at Auschwitz-Birkenau, plus 96 cubic meters of firewood (equivalent to about 43 tons of wood, and thus some 21.5 tons of coke). According to another source, further 44.5 tons of wood (roughly equivalent to 22.2 tons of coke) were delivered. Adding the above 607 tons to the coke equivalents of the wood (43.7 tons) yields fuel equivalent to about 651 tons of coke, with which (651,000 kg ÷ 32.7 kg/corpse ≈) some 19,900 corpses could have been cremated!



Orthodox historians themselves support the 3.5 kg of coal per body in their statements and without due correspondence in the delivery of coal and renovation of the refractory masonry, which would require between 8 or 9 renovations for the 1 million victims.

We know the need for coal in the Kremas based on practical tests in other fields, we do not need the builders' word.