Chronology of the Holocaust

[bombsaway]

In terms of technical difficulty, how does it compare with delousing chambers? Seems like they're very similar in principle. With bottled CO I assume that's pressurized so you just have to, attach a tube that leads into the room, release the valve, and the gas flows until the valve is tightened.

My feeling about revisionists is they're assigning a technical difficulty to homicidal gassing that is unwarranted.

[Stubble]

In terms of technical difficulty, how does it compare with delousing chambers? Seems like they're very similar in principle. With bottled CO I assume that's pressurized so you just have to, attach a tube that leads into the room, release the valve, and the gas flows until the valve is tightened.

My feeling about revisionists is they're assigning a technical difficulty to homicidal gassing that is unwarranted.

I question your rigor and I caution you that you have in no way considered this critically.

Further, I find you disregard for safe practices so cavalier that I would not work with you on any site where life was on the line. I would not want you on a drill site, I would not want you in a processing plant and I'd be leery to work with you in manufacturing.

Doing just as you have proposed would be, trying to not be overly wordy here, dangerous, and not just for the condemned.

[Archie]

In terms of technical difficulty, how does it compare with delousing chambers? Seems like they're very similar in principle. With bottled CO I assume that's pressurized so you just have to, attach a tube that leads into the room, release the valve, and the gas flows until the valve is tightened.

My feeling about revisionists is they're assigning a technical difficulty to homicidal gassing that is unwarranted.

You misunderstand (as is your wont). The Germans built the V-2 rocket. I have no doubt whatsoever that they could have built an exquisite homicidal gas chamber. This would not be difficult at all for someone with sufficient technical background. However, if you told a typical person or even a typical physician to go build a gas chamber, I wouldn't expect them to know how to do this. Could they rig something up? Er ... maybe? You cite the delousing chambers but are you aware that everything was designed by DEGESCH, there were lengthy technical manuals, and that SS men had to be trained in the procedure so that they wouldn't accidentally kill anyone? And that there were sometimes accidents? This example seems to support my point over yours. This doesn't seem like the sort of thing that you just throw together casually.

Or take the American gas chambers. Do you think the prison warden thought it would be a good idea to have a gas chamber and gave it his best shot? No. They contracted that out to some engineering company that would have had some some clue what they were doing.

Consider what I posted recently about Brack.
https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=30

Question: Now, how would the heads of each of these institutions know how to install a gas chamber unless there were certain plans and specifications given to them?

Brack: I never saw any such plan. I don’t know of any.

Question: Would you know how to go out and build a gas chamber unless some engineer or planner had told you? Certainly I wouldn’t.

Brack: I don’t know whether I would either. Presumably he called in an engineer.

Question: That’s what I’m trying to say. What engineer or group of engineers was responsible for seeing that these gas chambers were built so that they would do the job they were supposed to do?

Brack: There was certainly no group of engineers. I presume there was somebody at the institutions who had enough technical ability to do it. I don’t know.

The NMT judge agrees with me. He is baffled by this improvised gas chamber story. Brack can't really explain it. My guess is that's because his testimony isn't factual. And we see this problem repeatedly with the "gas chamber" design and construction.

https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=196

[Archie]

Just a heads up, this thread is probably going to get euthanized (locked) at some point since there's no clear scope or focus. The topic was obstensibly "chronology" which is really broad to begin with. But there wasn't much discussion of timeline related issues. It quickly turned into Einsatzgruppen. Then it pivoted to euthanasia. I fail to see the advantage in mixing all of this together or how the "chronology" theme adds anything to these discussions. It seems like separate threads would be better than a long meandering thread covering a bunch of different topics. Reminds me of the BA's case for orthodoxy thread (which in retrospect was also too disorganized).

[Numar Patru]

Or take the American gas chambers. Do you think the prison warden thought it would be a good idea to have a gas chamber and gave it his best shot? No. They contracted that out to some engineering company that would have had some some clue what they were doing.

Cool. Now explain how a German hospital is going to accomplish that without raising suspicion that they are going to be conducting executions? Someone is going to have loose lips, and then T4 is back in the newspapers, the government has egg on its face, etc.

“Revisionists” routinely overestimate the importance of planning in much of how the Nazis conducted mass killing. It is far more likely that, in many cases, mass execution was carried out with an order to use what was had on hand.

[bombsaway]

Just a heads up, this thread is probably going to get euthanized (locked) at some point since there's no clear scope or focus. The topic was obstensibly "chronology" which is really broad to begin with. But there wasn't much discussion of timeline related issues. It quickly turned into Einsatzgruppen. Then it pivoted to euthanasia. I fail to see the advantage in mixing all of this together or how the "chronology" theme adds anything to these discussions. It seems like separate threads would be better than a long meandering thread covering a bunch of different topics. Reminds me of the BA's case for orthodoxy thread (which in retrospect was also too disorganized).

The focus is to move up in the chronology. I wanted to do more with the Einsatzgruppen, examine how policy evolved into 1942 as killings and eliminations continued.

Stubble redirected to gassings, which I guess is the ultimate destination. To understand the gassings it's important to understand the relationship to SS police shootings, but with T4 it's even more important. I think the posters have some misapprehensions about T4 so the plan is to stop here for a while, with the goal of moving on to relationship to Polish death camps. I don't see the reason to stick to a schedule or time table on this, but there is a trajectory I want to take.

[bombsaway]

In terms of technical difficulty, how does it compare with delousing chambers? Seems like they're very similar in principle. With bottled CO I assume that's pressurized so you just have to, attach a tube that leads into the room, release the valve, and the gas flows until the valve is tightened.

My feeling about revisionists is they're assigning a technical difficulty to homicidal gassing that is unwarranted.

You misunderstand (as is your wont). The Germans built the V-2 rocket. I have no doubt whatsoever that they could have built an exquisite homicidal gas chamber. This would not be difficult at all for someone with sufficient technical background. However, if you told a typical person or even a typical physician to go build a gas chamber, I wouldn't expect them to know how to do this. Could they rig something up? Er ... maybe? You cite the delousing chambers but are you aware that everything was designed by DEGESCH, there were lengthy technical manuals, and that SS men had to be trained in the procedure so that they wouldn't accidentally kill anyone? And that there were sometimes accidents? This example seems to support my point over yours. This doesn't seem like the sort of thing that you just throw together casually.

Or take the American gas chambers. Do you think the prison warden thought it would be a good idea to have a gas chamber and gave it his best shot? No. They contracted that out to some engineering company that would have had some some clue what they were doing.

Consider what I posted recently about Brack.
https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=30

Question: Now, how would the heads of each of these institutions know how to install a gas chamber unless there were certain plans and specifications given to them?

Brack: I never saw any such plan. I don’t know of any.

Question: Would you know how to go out and build a gas chamber unless some engineer or planner had told you? Certainly I wouldn’t.

Brack: I don’t know whether I would either. Presumably he called in an engineer.

Question: That’s what I’m trying to say. What engineer or group of engineers was responsible for seeing that these gas chambers were built so that they would do the job they were supposed to do?

Brack: There was certainly no group of engineers. I presume there was somebody at the institutions who had enough technical ability to do it. I don’t know.

The NMT judge agrees with me. He is baffled by this improvised gas chamber story. Brack can't really explain it. My guess is that's because his testimony isn't factual. And we see this problem repeatedly with the "gas chamber" design and construction.

https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=196

So I think you agree that delousing chambers and homicidal gas chambers are similarly complex. Are you saying that because we don't have similar paperwork for gas chambers it couldn't have happened? Let's look at some guidelines for using delousing chambers and see how hard that would be to follow.

Re Brack, I'm not sure the relevance of him saying that is? Your "guess" that it's because he was lying about the gas chambers (in that they didn't exist), is not the only possible reason here. I think it would be very logical for him to lie and minimize his involvement in a project where it couldn't be proven.

Why do you think he was lying? Be specific and you'll see the rationale is less logical than this.

[bombsaway]

Question: Now, of what materials were these gas chambers built? Were
they movable gas chambers, very much like the low-pressure chambers
that Professor Dr. Ruff talked about, or were they something that was built
permanently into the camp or installation ?

Brack: No special gas chamber was built. A room suitable in the hospi-
tal was used; a room of necessity attached to the reception ward and to
the room where the insane persons were kept. This room was made into a
gas chamber. It was sealed, given special doors and windows, and then a
few meters of gas piping were laid, or some kind of piping with holes in it.
Outside this room there was a container, a compressed gas container with
the necessary apparatus, that is, pressure gauge, etc.

You can find more of the testimony here, https://archive.org/stream/TheGasChambe ... l_djvu.txt

but please justify why this explanation by Brack is insufficient.

[Stubble]

Question: Now, of what materials were these gas chambers built? Were
they movable gas chambers, very much like the low-pressure chambers
that Professor Dr. Ruff talked about, or were they something that was built
permanently into the camp or installation ?

Brack: No special gas chamber was built. A room suitable in the hospi-
tal was used; a room of necessity attached to the reception ward and to
the room where the insane persons were kept. This room was made into a
gas chamber. It was sealed, given special doors and windows, and then a
few meters of gas piping were laid, or some kind of piping with holes in it.
Outside this room there was a container, a compressed gas container with
the necessary apparatus, that is, pressure gauge, etc.

You can find more of the testimony here, https://archive.org/stream/TheGasChambe ... l_djvu.txt

but please justify why this explanation by Brack is insufficient.

If someone needs to describe to you how retarded that testimony is, I don't think you are going to understand the explanation.

No offense

[bombsaway]

Question: Now, of what materials were these gas chambers built? Were
they movable gas chambers, very much like the low-pressure chambers
that Professor Dr. Ruff talked about, or were they something that was built
permanently into the camp or installation ?

Brack: No special gas chamber was built. A room suitable in the hospi-
tal was used; a room of necessity attached to the reception ward and to
the room where the insane persons were kept. This room was made into a
gas chamber. It was sealed, given special doors and windows, and then a
few meters of gas piping were laid, or some kind of piping with holes in it.
Outside this room there was a container, a compressed gas container with
the necessary apparatus, that is, pressure gauge, etc.

You can find more of the testimony here, https://archive.org/stream/TheGasChambe ... l_djvu.txt

but please justify why this explanation by Brack is insufficient.

If someone needs to describe to you how retarded that testimony is, I don't think you are going to understand the explanation.

No offense

I mean you can say it's retarded, but I basically offered that exact explanation a few posts ago. Your critique was that it was dangerous but you didn't say why. If that tube was sealed there would be little danger in the room where the containers were opened. I've screwed a tube on a water hose before, similar principle. You just need airtight tubing.

[Stubble]

You can find more of the testimony here, https://archive.org/stream/TheGasChambe ... l_djvu.txt

but please justify why this explanation by Brack is insufficient.

If someone needs to describe to you how retarded that testimony is, I don't think you are going to understand the explanation.

No offense

I mean you can say it's retarded, but I basically offered that exact explanation a few posts ago. Your critique was that it was dangerous but you didn't say why. If that tube was sealed there would be little danger in the room where the containers were opened. I've screwed a tube on a water hose before, similar principle. You just need airtight tubing.

How do I explain that a lethal concentration of carbon monoxide in a room sealed with ceramic tile and grout and a water hose are different to you? I mean honestly, you are approach this with a complete lack of respect for poison gas, for safety and for the complexity of dealing with a room full of carbon monoxide and dead bodies...

You just say 'hey, this guy totally said you can just run a tube in the room and kill people with it guys, it's totes legit'.

I'm done.

[bombsaway]

If someone needs to describe to you how retarded that testimony is, I don't think you are going to understand the explanation.

No offense

I mean you can say it's retarded, but I basically offered that exact explanation a few posts ago. Your critique was that it was dangerous but you didn't say why. If that tube was sealed there would be little danger in the room where the containers were opened. I've screwed a tube on a water hose before, similar principle. You just need airtight tubing.

How do I explain that a lethal concentration of carbon monoxide in a room sealed with ceramic tile and grout and a water hose are different to you? I mean honestly, you are approach this with a complete lack of respect for poison gas, for safety and for the complexity of dealing with a room full of carbon monoxide and dead bodies...

You just say 'hey, this guy totally said you can just run a tube in the room and kill people with it guys, it's totes legit'.

I'm done.

Why because CO will leak out of the room? Give me some numbers about how much leakage.

[Stubble]

Bombs, the amount of carbon monoxide that will seep through grout isn't even the foundation of a problem with this idea. I don't even know where to try to start to explain how much is wrong with all of this.

I took a stab at some of it earlier, and was as clear and concise as I could be.

I mean, you unironically take this all seriously and you refuse to see any problem with it.

It's like with people pouring dirt and caustic soda over their dead neighbors, then laying face down in it waiting to be shot in the head, by the tens of thousands. You just, absolutely believe that. You just know that happened.

I'm done man, I'm done.

I'm sure there is some one line rebuttal somewhere of 'well, but you have to' or some such, and I'm sure you will see this as some kind of own.

If someone unironically takes the Auschwitz orchestra seriously though, I now understand, there's not anything I can say to them.

/shrug

[bombsaway]

I mean, you unironically take this all seriously and you refuse to see any problem with it.

What problems do you see? Humor me, if you can, and be specific. If you think it's dangerous, say why. You haven't actually done that yet, from what I've seen.

[Stubble]

I mean, you unironically take this all seriously and you refuse to see any problem with it.

What problems do you see? Humor me, if you can, and be specific. If you think it's dangerous, say why. You haven't actually done that yet, from what I've seen.

What's dangerous about lethal concentrations of carbon monoxide?

/shrug

I'm done man.