Chronology of the Holocaust

[HansHill]

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Interesting, perhaps I'm mistaken on this point. I'll ask my wife to translate the footnotes given above as her German is better than mine - in the meantime, please review Mattogno's citation for this claim which is: Witte et al., pp. 609-611

[Numar Patru]

Is this Witte’s book on Jäger?

Edited: Sorry, didn’t recognize the editors of the Dienstkalender.

Those pages refer to 1942, not 1941.

More sloppy bullshit from Mattogno.

[HansHill]

Is this Witte’s book on Jäger?

Edited: Sorry, didn’t recognize the editors of the Dienstkalender.

Those pages refer to 1942, not 1941.

More sloppy bullshit from Mattogno.

Interesting - if that indeed is the case then i retract the argument about Jeckeln's meeting and receiving the verbal extermination order as being impossible

[Nessie]

What about the Jews of Kiev, who had gathered at Babi Yar?

Who said they gathered? The photos they provide show prisoners of war digging in the ravine and German police watching. Other photos show clothes on the ground.

From the photos, there are no piles of clothes as one would expect from 33,000 people. So the scope of these executions lacks more conclusive evidence.

...

Please provide an evidenced chronology of what happened to the Jews of Kiev after September 1941. Witness statements, transport records, camp records, the usual type of evidence that would prove they were still alive in 1942.

[Nessie]

It’s your contention that because Himmler and Jeckeln did not meet on a certain date in a certain place that his orders would have been substantively different from what he’d already been doing, notably in Kyiv? Really?

Jeckeln had one job at this point in time. He was transferred to Riga to do that job.

Except it's not just a certain date and a certain place, is it? It's the certain date that he claimed during his interrogation, and the certain place he claimed during his interrogation.

Here is the citation given on the Wiki article as provided by Nessie:



The source given 7 links directly back to the NKVD interrogation i taught you about earlier.

Perhaps you are going to ask us to dispense with this account and interpret it some other way?

The Jews of Kiev were to be evacuated east? OK, please provide an evidenced chronology of that happening and where the Jews were in 1942.

[TlsMS93]

Please provide an evidenced chronology of what happened to the Jews of Kiev after September 1941. Witness statements, transport records, camp records, the usual type of evidence that would prove they were still alive in 1942.

What witness was qualified to say that they were executed? The Soviets had witnesses that the Germans executed Katyn. Given the Jewish influence in Western countries, do you seriously think they would object to what happened to them? Are you seriously relying on an ad hoc trial to assess the historicity of an event?

Yad Vashem claims to have identified 10% of these executed Jews, but that means nothing to you. You prefer to believe in the authenticity of obscure and incoherent documents left to be captured and used as evidence.

When exterminationists want to fill a gap in their narrative, they resort to hiding evidence, but when confronted with apparent evidence, they say nothing because it was not destroyed.

[HansHill]

The Jews of Kiev were to be evacuated east? OK, please provide an evidenced chronology of that happening and where the Jews were in 1942.

Hang on we're not there yet. This discussion has been about the positive claim of 2 large scale massacres at Rumbula. I've given my thoughts to both BA, and Numar who've provided counterpoints. BA's counterpoint about the Sardine method being viable is still not concrete in my opinion and probably the opinion of most people for reasons I've given, however Numar has satisfied the criteria of being able to place Himmler in Berlin. To which I've retracted that argument.

You see how we're working through this? If you want to help Numar and BA out in their positions, you can substantiate the meeting or execution orders as claimed by Jeckeln, my assertion still stands that this was fabricated under NKVD interrogation, so please follow in your friend Numar's footsteps and provide something satisfactory to the contrary.

Additionally I've raised other arguments to BA who needs more time to digest them, you can assist him with those to help explain why the Orthodox narrative is so weak!

[Nessie]

Please provide an evidenced chronology of what happened to the Jews of Kiev after September 1941. Witness statements, transport records, camp records, the usual type of evidence that would prove they were still alive in 1942.

What witness was qualified to say that they were executed? The Soviets had witnesses that the Germans executed Katyn. Given the Jewish influence in Western countries, do you seriously think they would object to what happened to them? Are you seriously relying on an ad hoc trial to assess the historicity of an event?

Yad Vashem claims to have identified 10% of these executed Jews, but that means nothing to you. You prefer to believe in the authenticity of obscure and incoherent documents left to be captured and used as evidence.

Your incredulity has no evidential value.

When exterminationists want to fill a gap in their narrative, they resort to hiding evidence, but when confronted with apparent evidence, they say nothing because it was not destroyed.

What evidence would that be? You have none to prove the Jews at Babi Yar left alive and where they were in 1942. No witnesses, documents, anything. You can produce a big fat zero. That is why you deflect and allege it is the historians who lack evidence.

[Nessie]

The Jews of Kiev were to be evacuated east? OK, please provide an evidenced chronology of that happening and where the Jews were in 1942.

Hang on we're not there yet. This discussion has been about the positive claim of 2 large scale massacres at Rumbula. I've given my thoughts to both BA, and Numar who've provided counterpoints. BA's counterpoint about the Sardine method being viable is still not concrete in my opinion and probably the opinion of most people for reasons I've given, however Numar has satisfied the criteria of being able to place Himmler in Berlin. To which I've retracted that argument.

Your position is that there were no large scale massacres at Rumbula.

You see how we're working through this? If you want to help Numar and BA out in their positions, you can substantiate the meeting or execution orders as claimed by Jeckeln, my assertion still stands that this was fabricated under NKVD interrogation, so please follow in your friend Numar's footsteps and provide something satisfactory to the contrary.

You have stalled working through this, to avoid your total and utter lack of evidence of the Riga ghetto Jews sent to Rumbula, still alive in 1942, in the east.

Additionally I've raised other arguments to BA who needs more time to digest them, you can assist him with those to help explain why the Orthodox narrative is so weak!

The "orthodox narrative" is not weak. It is far better evidenced than the revisionist one, to the point that 100% of the evidence fits with there having been a series of mass shootings of the Jews at Riga and there is 0% of the evidence of them being transported and resettled further east.

You are failing to produce an evidenced chronology of events, the basic task of any historical or criminal investigation.

[TlsMS93]

What evidence would that be? You have none to prove the Jews at Babi Yar left alive and where they were in 1942. No witnesses, documents, anything. You can produce a big fat zero. That is why you deflect and allege it is the historians who lack evidence.

I repeat. Yad Vashem has only identified 10% of the alleged Babi Yar. Do you accept this? Otherwise, tell me the identity of the rest, dealing only with numbers is not appropriate here, otherwise you would have to believe in the 800,000 French Jews of Wannsee, of whom less than 10% were deported.

[Nessie]

What evidence would that be? You have none to prove the Jews at Babi Yar left alive and where they were in 1942. No witnesses, documents, anything. You can produce a big fat zero. That is why you deflect and allege it is the historians who lack evidence.

I repeat. Yad Vashem has only identified 10% of the alleged Babi Yar. Do you accept this? Otherwise, tell me the identity of the rest, dealing only with numbers is not appropriate here, otherwise you would have to believe in the 800,000 French Jews of Wannsee, of whom less than 10% were deported.

Why do you fail to show us all how it is done, and produce an evidenced chronology of what happened to the Jews of Kiev, after the Nazis occupied it and ordered all Jews to go to Babi Yar?

Do you know how to evidence a historical event?

[TlsMS93]

Why do you fail to show us all how it is done, and produce an evidenced chronology of what happened to the Jews of Kiev, after the Nazis occupied it and ordered all Jews to go to Babi Yar?

Do you know how to evidence a historical event?

Who gave the order? The poster they offer as proof does not have the name of the issuing authority, nor the rank of the issuing officer, nor the date of issue. And the street names are wrong and they were not supposed to go to Babi Yar but to a nearby corner. No occupation authority is that sloppy, but I have no doubt that Jewish partisans are.

[HansHill]

Your position is that there were no large scale massacres at Rumbula.

Correct, until you can evidence something. Anything. Here's a recount what you need to comment on to get you started:

- The lack of bodies found by the Soviets (549 across 10 "massacre" sites falling orders of magnitude short of the 116,000 murders)
- Related to the above, a comment on the lack of forensics performed by the Soviets to identify those slain as indeed being Jews, and the cause of death. Give us something for God's sake, anything approaching the quality of the Katyn forensics would be nice. If this was not performed by the Soviets, then we'd appreciate a comment on why not?
- The eyewitnesses getting basic details wrong - i quoted one eyewitness earlier in the thread, please go back to read the basic errors in her account.
- The sardine method, a comment on why we're wrong to be laughing at this - give us something that helps us take this seriously.

You have stalled working through this, to avoid your total and utter lack of evidence of the Riga ghetto Jews sent to Rumbula, still alive in 1942, in the east.

The "orthodox narrative" is not weak. It is far better evidenced than the revisionist one, to the point that 100% of the evidence fits with there having been a series of mass shootings of the Jews at Riga and there is 0% of the evidence of them being transported and resettled further east.

You are failing to produce an evidenced chronology of events, the basic task of any historical or criminal investigation.

See above challenges for you to square off.

[Nessie]

Why do you fail to show us all how it is done, and produce an evidenced chronology of what happened to the Jews of Kiev, after the Nazis occupied it and ordered all Jews to go to Babi Yar?

Do you know how to evidence a historical event?

Who gave the order? The poster they offer as proof does not have the name of the issuing authority, nor the rank of the issuing officer, nor the date of issue. And the street names are wrong and they were not supposed to go to Babi Yar but to a nearby corner. No occupation authority is that sloppy, but I have no doubt that Jewish partisans are.

You are going off topic. The thread is a chronology of the Holocaust, starting with Babi Yar and Rumbula as early mass murders. Now, if you say they did not happen, then your chronology is not that they did not happen, it was what did happen to the Jews from Kiev and Riga? If you cannot produce a chronology of events, you should just drop out, as you are not up to the basic task of establishing any history.

[Nessie]

Your position is that there were no large scale massacres at Rumbula.

Correct, until you can evidence something. Anything. Here's a recount what you need to comment on to get you started:

- The lack of bodies found by the Soviets (549 across 10 "massacre" sites falling orders of magnitude short of the 116,000 murders)
- Related to the above, a comment on the lack of forensics performed by the Soviets to identify those slain as indeed being Jews, and the cause of death. Give us something for God's sake, anything approaching the quality of the Katyn forensics would be nice. If this was not performed by the Soviets, then we'd appreciate a comment on why not?
- The eyewitnesses getting basic details wrong - i quoted one eyewitness earlier in the thread, please go back to read the basic errors in her account.
- The sardine method, a comment on why we're wrong to be laughing at this - give us something that helps us take this seriously.

The thread is supposed to be a chronology and chronologies are an order of events by date, not what did not happen. If you want to discuss why you think what did not happen at Rumbula, then start another topic.

You have stalled working through this, to avoid your total and utter lack of evidence of the Riga ghetto Jews sent to Rumbula, still alive in 1942, in the east.

The "orthodox narrative" is not weak. It is far better evidenced than the revisionist one, to the point that 100% of the evidence fits with there having been a series of mass shootings of the Jews at Riga and there is 0% of the evidence of them being transported and resettled further east.

You are failing to produce an evidenced chronology of events, the basic task of any historical or criminal investigation.

See above challenges for you to square off.

Chronologies do not start off with what did not happen. They are what happened, in date order. So, the first event was the establishment of the Riga ghetto in October 1941, in a small guarded area outside the old town, where local people were evicted, and arrested Jews were imprisoned. The history is that a month later, as the first mass transports of Jews from Germany arrived, the mass shootings started.

Your chronology will obviously be different, so please, by month, present what you say happened, back by any evidence you have. If you are unable to do that, please just drop out of the thread, accepting you cannot even manage the basic task of any historian, or even school children given a history project.