Chronology of the Holocaust

[bombsaway]

These weren't meant to be sources but rather a starting point for future inquiry. Everything has to be checked obviously. Looking at the Codoh page I see the hypothesis is the documents are fabricated, the witnesses are lying, and the Latvian Jews were in fact transported east. The only place where positive evidence is given is about Latvian Jews moving east, a newspaper article. Historians generally eschew such evidence if better evidence exists, because they lack footnotes, aren't sourced at all.

Basically the newspaper article stating the Latvian Jews were sent east is explainable in terms of it being the narrative the authorities (Riga was under Nazi occupation) put out. This story was also told to the Jews that arrived at the ghetto to find it empty. No more information, whether documentary or witness, exists for the "resettled" Latvian Jews being housed or maintained anywhere. I think it's hypocritical for revisionists to treat this as a given.

Emphasis mine.

Are you conveniently forgetting that England was at war with Germany at this time? You are suggesting that an English newspaper would reproduce blatant German propaganda? While this is not completely outside the realm of possibility that a journalist could go rogue and defect (William Joyce, for example) it would need to be substantiated in some kind of way, rather than handwaved.

Regardless, that point is rather redundant given the sub-headline is "Another Chapter in the Record of Nazi Savagery". Why would the NSDAP feed that to a British newspaper?

Rather, the far more prescient point here is that the shambolic Orthodox narrative - accounts from eyewitness are appalling (basic errors like getting the location wrong), along with the numbers being in complete disarray, all of which Wikipedia seem to gloss over!

Finally, the method as described by Ezergailis:

The Jeckeln method of killing even surpassed the killing rates in the death-camp factories. To kill 25,000 people in two 10-hour days, it meant that 1,250 were killed per hour; or 21 per minute, or one person every three seconds.

Emphasis mine again. This insanity conveniently is omitted from the Wikipedia article, obviously!

Before I respond in depth, what is your hypothesis about what really happened based on best interpretation of the evidence and data?

The Wikipedia article also references accounts that many people were killed in the ghettos and on the way over.

The ghetto itself was a scene of mass murder after the departure of the columns on November 30, as Kaufmann described:

Ludzas street in the center of the ghetto was full of murdered people. Their blood flowed in the gutters. In the houses there were also countless people who had been shot. Slowly people began to pick them up. The lawyer Wittenberg had taken this holy task upon himself, and he mobilized the remaining young people for this task.

— Churbn Lettland - The Destruction of the Jews of Latvia[74]
The blood literally ran in the gutters. Frida Michelson, an eyewitness, recorded that the next day, December 1, there were still puddles of blood in the street, frozen by then.[73]

The highest described daily kill count is 12,000, we can assume not all were killed at the pits based on the accounts that reference Jews being killed in other ways. Maybe 10,000 killed at the pits, maybe less?

Here's Bruns' description of the pits

BRUNS: I'll tell you something: some of the details may have been correct, but it was remarkable that the firing squad detailed that morning - six men with tommy-guns were posted at each pit; the pits were 24 m in length and 3 m in breadth - they had to lie down like sardines in a tin, with their heads in the centre. Above there were six men with tommy-guns who gave them the coup de grâce. When I arrived those pits were so full that the living had to lie down on top of the dead; then they were shot and, in order to save room, they had to lie down neatly in layers. Before this, however, they were stripped of everything at one of the stations - here at the edge of the wood were the three pits they used that Sunday and here they stood in a queue 1 1/2 km long which approached step by step - a queueing up for death. As they drew nearer they saw what was going on. About here they had to hand over their jewellery and suitcases. All good stuff was put into the suit-cases and the remainder thrown on a heap. This was to serve as clothing for our suffering population - and then a little further on they had to undress and, 500 m in front of the wood, strip completely; they were only permitted to keep on a chemise or knickers. They were all women and small two year-old children. Then all those cynical remarks! If only I had seen those tommy-gunners, who were relieved every hour - because of over-exertion, carry out their task with distaste, but no, nasty remarks like: "Here comes a Jewish beauty!" I can still see it all in my memory: a pretty woman in a flame-coloured chemise. Talk about keeping the race pure: at RIGA they first slept with them and then shot them to prevent them from talking.

So 3 pits, 6 shooters in each, being rotated out every hour

Over 10 hours that comes out to 333 people per pit per hour, or 5.5 per minute per pit. Is this insanity? I don't know, it's all speculative anyway. Revisionists make a mistake by assigning high probability to one possibility or another. I think you're strawmanning.

Btw just saw this which is evidence of "sardine" method being used https://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic. ... 22#p976322

[TlsMS93]

Emphasis mine.

Are you conveniently forgetting that England was at war with Germany at this time? You are suggesting that an English newspaper would reproduce blatant German propaganda? While this is not completely outside the realm of possibility that a journalist could go rogue and defect (William Joyce, for example) it would need to be substantiated in some kind of way, rather than handwaved.

Regardless, that point is rather redundant given the sub-headline is "Another Chapter in the Record of Nazi Savagery". Why would the NSDAP feed that to a British newspaper?

Rather, the far more prescient point here is that the shambolic Orthodox narrative - accounts from eyewitness are appalling (basic errors like getting the location wrong), along with the numbers being in complete disarray, all of which Wikipedia seem to gloss over!

Finally, the method as described by Ezergailis:

The Jeckeln method of killing even surpassed the killing rates in the death-camp factories. To kill 25,000 people in two 10-hour days, it meant that 1,250 were killed per hour; or 21 per minute, or one person every three seconds.

Emphasis mine again. This insanity conveniently is omitted from the Wikipedia article, obviously!

And there were no revolts or anything, they went like sheep to the slaughterhouse, they willingly surrendered themselves to death, this happens in shootings when you know you will be killed, like in the gas chambers that they say have deceived the purpose, just ignoring both questions of alignment in perfect order, total cooperation with the executioners.

[Stubble]

I'm going to guess this series pretty well encapsulates the orthodox view of the events of the 'holocaust of bullets'.



when you hear this guy going over things, the narrative almost makes sense. Of course, if you are familiar with the foundation of the house he has built here, you know the bits of insanity he touches on without actually presenting.

Like 10,000 people being shot by a handful of armed executioners.

He does talk about 'bayonetted babies' unironically, but, when it comes to 'ripping babies in half' or some other other 'facts' presented, that is ground he dare not tread.

Very selective in oration, no links to source, and high production. Pravda.

My question to the supporters of the orthodox narrative is this, is this series actually reflective of the chronology as it is agreed?

[Numar Patru]

Emphasis mine.

Are you conveniently forgetting that England was at war with Germany at this time? You are suggesting that an English newspaper would reproduce blatant German propaganda? While this is not completely outside the realm of possibility that a journalist could go rogue and defect (William Joyce, for example) it would need to be substantiated in some kind of way, rather than handwaved.

Regardless, that point is rather redundant given the sub-headline is "Another Chapter in the Record of Nazi Savagery". Why would the NSDAP feed that to a British newspaper?

Rather, the far more prescient point here is that the shambolic Orthodox narrative - accounts from eyewitness are appalling (basic errors like getting the location wrong), along with the numbers being in complete disarray, all of which Wikipedia seem to gloss over!

Finally, the method as described by Ezergailis:

The Jeckeln method of killing even surpassed the killing rates in the death-camp factories. To kill 25,000 people in two 10-hour days, it meant that 1,250 were killed per hour; or 21 per minute, or one person every three seconds.

Emphasis mine again. This insanity conveniently is omitted from the Wikipedia article, obviously!

And there were no revolts or anything, they went like sheep to the slaughterhouse, they willingly surrendered themselves to death, this happens in shootings when you know you will be killed, like in the gas chambers that they say have deceived the purpose, just ignoring both questions of alignment in perfect order, total cooperation with the executioners.

What’s your point?

[Stubble]

Emphasis mine.

Are you conveniently forgetting that England was at war with Germany at this time? You are suggesting that an English newspaper would reproduce blatant German propaganda? While this is not completely outside the realm of possibility that a journalist could go rogue and defect (William Joyce, for example) it would need to be substantiated in some kind of way, rather than handwaved.

Regardless, that point is rather redundant given the sub-headline is "Another Chapter in the Record of Nazi Savagery". Why would the NSDAP feed that to a British newspaper?

Rather, the far more prescient point here is that the shambolic Orthodox narrative - accounts from eyewitness are appalling (basic errors like getting the location wrong), along with the numbers being in complete disarray, all of which Wikipedia seem to gloss over!

Finally, the method as described by Ezergailis:

The Jeckeln method of killing even surpassed the killing rates in the death-camp factories. To kill 25,000 people in two 10-hour days, it meant that 1,250 were killed per hour; or 21 per minute, or one person every three seconds.

Emphasis mine again. This insanity conveniently is omitted from the Wikipedia article, obviously!

And there were no revolts or anything, they went like sheep to the slaughterhouse, they willingly surrendered themselves to death, this happens in shootings when you know you will be killed, like in the gas chambers that they say have deceived the purpose, just ignoring both questions of alignment in perfect order, total cooperation with the executioners.

What’s your point?

I believe what is being highlighted here is the denial of the survival instinct.

The idea of a handful of armed executioners getting tens of thousands to line up in a row and deposit themselves into a pit to be shot in the back of the head after obediently laying 'sardine style' in the pit to make the execution as orderly and timely as possible for the executioners.

Do you have an articulable explanation for the lack of any survival instinct and obedience in being executed?

The behavior of the condemned as described is markably queer.

[bombsaway]

And there were no revolts or anything, they went like sheep to the slaughterhouse, they willingly surrendered themselves to death, this happens in shootings when you know you will be killed, like in the gas chambers that they say have deceived the purpose, just ignoring both questions of alignment in perfect order, total cooperation with the executioners.

What’s your point?

I believe what is being highlighted here is the denial of the survival instinct.

The idea of a handful of armed executioners getting tens of thousands to line up in a row and deposit themselves into a pit to be shot in the back of the head after obediently laying 'sardine style' in the pit to make the execution as orderly and timely as possible for the executioners.

Do you have an articulable explanation for the lack of any survival instinct and obedience in being executed?

The behavior of the condemned as described is markably queer.

This is a strawman though (handful of armed executioners getting tens of thousands . . . ) . In the case of Babi Yar, it's documented that likely over a thousand police and auxiliary units took part, even if there were relatively few active executioners at any given time.

So the process goes something like this, there's a long line, at the front of which there's higher police presence. It's not obvious what the purpose is until you get to the front, when you're close enough to hear the gun shots. At this point the ratio of armed police to victims is very high, perhaps even. Then the choice becomes do you flee and get shot anyway or accept your fate? Is it common for people in other situations, like in front of firing squads to act differently? Do people fight to resist lethal injections? Likely your best chance of survival is to lay in the pit, hope your shooter misses, and play dead until nightfall.

[TlsMS93]

33,000 Jews in Babi Yar would be a ratio of 33 Jews for every German police officer to take care of. Would a revolt be able to handle them all? Taking into account that there would be 33 waves of shootings of 1,000 Jews, the rest would know their fate and in a collective they would revolt and each one would go to a cardinal point to have a chance of perhaps reaching the Soviet lines or hiding in the forest, but they preferred death.

[bombsaway]

33,000 Jews in Babi Yar would be a ratio of 33 Jews for every German police officer to take care of. Would a revolt be able to handle them all? Taking into account that there would be 33 waves of shootings of 1,000 Jews, the rest would know their fate and in a collective they would revolt and each one would go to a cardinal point to have a chance of perhaps reaching the Soviet lines or hiding in the forest, but they preferred death.

You're strawmanning the orthodox position, assuming that all 33,000 would simultaneously know what was happening to them. You certainly read what I stated about only those in the immediate vicinity of the execution pits realizing. Why are you ignoring this?

[Stubble]

What’s your point?

I believe what is being highlighted here is the denial of the survival instinct.

The idea of a handful of armed executioners getting tens of thousands to line up in a row and deposit themselves into a pit to be shot in the back of the head after obediently laying 'sardine style' in the pit to make the execution as orderly and timely as possible for the executioners.

Do you have an articulable explanation for the lack of any survival instinct and obedience in being executed?

The behavior of the condemned as described is markably queer.

This is a strawman though (handful of armed executioners getting tens of thousands . . . ) . In the case of Babi Yar, it's documented that likely over a thousand police and auxiliary units took part, even if there were relatively few active executioners at any given time.

So the process goes something like this, there's a long line, at the front of which there's higher police presence. It's not obvious what the purpose is until you get to the front, when you're close enough to hear the gun shots. At this point the ratio of armed police to victims is very high, perhaps even. Then the choice becomes do you flee and get shot anyway or accept your fate? Is it common for people in other situations, like in front of firing squads to act differently? Do people fight to resist lethal injections? Likely your best chance of survival is to lay in the pit, hope your shooter misses, and play dead until nightfall.

How do you guard the described one mile (in excess of 2.2 kilometer) line being fed into the pit in a clockwork fashion?

Nobody balked. No body jumped. Nobody ran. Nobody did anything short of obediently lay in a pit, face down in chlorinated lime and sand, and wait to be shot in the back of the head.

I mean, I'm supposed to take this seriously, you don't see the problem here, and you believe this?

[TlsMS93]

You're strawmanning the orthodox position, assuming that all 33,000 would simultaneously know what was happening to them. You certainly read what I stated about only those in the immediate vicinity of the execution pits realizing. Why are you ignoring this?

The surprise would only be in the first wave of shootings, in the others they would know their fate and none of the 32 waves were there any revolts. In fact, the shootings lasted two days, the waiting crowd did not suspect anything? Where were they? There were no rumors and no contact with the local population, nothing? So the question remains.

[bombsaway]

How do you guard the described one mile (in excess of 2.2 kilometer) line being fed into the pit in a clockwork fashion?

Nobody balked. No body jumped. Nobody ran. Nobody did anything short of obediently lay in a pit, face down in chlorinated lime and sand, and wait to be shot in the back of the head.

I mean, I'm supposed to take this seriously, you don't see the problem here, and you believe this?

You hold up the line just outside the range at which gunshots are audible. Then you escort the victims in groups to the pits, 100 at a time, with each group closely guarded by 50 men.

People tried to run I'm sure. This described in witness testimonies. They were shot. There's also evidence of people resisting going into the gas chambers and being shot as well. Not sure what the point here is again. Was Bruns lying?

[Numar Patru]

I’d recommend reading the Wiki article on the Rumbula massacre for details on how crowd control was accomplished.

[bombsaway]

I’d recommend reading the Wiki article on the Rumbula massacre for details on how crowd control was accomplished.

We would have to look at the actual testimony (which I don't have easy access to ) but this is what the wiki article says

They were then marched towards the murder pits. If there were too many people arriving to be readily murdered immediately, they were held in the nearby forest until their turn came. As the piles of clothing became huge, members of the Arajs Commando loaded the articles on trucks to be transported back to Riga. The disrobing point was watched carefully by the killers, because it was here that there was a pause in the conveyor-like system, where resistance or rebellion might arise.[3][7]

Source given

Ezergailis 1996b, pp. 4–7, 239–70.

Riga trial verdict excerpts, as reprinted in Fleming 1994, pp. 78–9.

[TlsMS93]

Outside the ravine, the Jews had to hand over their valuables, strip completely naked and then go to the upper edge of the ravine in groups of 10.

This is what the Holocaust Encyclopedia says about Babi Yar

Groups of 10 would mean 3,377 groups. Even allowing only 5 minutes per group, this would still take 281 hours, or 24 days of working 12 hours a day.

Seriously, all these allegations of atrocities without evidence or coherence in my view were from partisans spreading rumors among the population and the Jews among the partisans targeting their side, distorting and dramatizing the event and this got back to the Allies and the Jewish organizations made good use of it for propaganda purposes. Of course after the war they got their witnesses that the Germans let live to tell.

As for post-war trials, it is clear that they will find a way to systematize the event, but precise testimony at the time of the event is almost nothing detailed, only that so many people were killed in one place. So basing events on a trial years after the event is less accurate than the accounts at the time.

[Stubble]

How do you guard the described one mile (in excess of 2.2 kilometer) line being fed into the pit in a clockwork fashion?

Nobody balked. No body jumped. Nobody ran. Nobody did anything short of obediently lay in a pit, face down in chlorinated lime and sand, and wait to be shot in the back of the head.

I mean, I'm supposed to take this seriously, you don't see the problem here, and you believe this?

You hold up the line just outside the range at which gunshots are audible. Then you escort the victims in groups to the pits, 100 at a time, with each group closely guarded by 50 men.

People tried to run I'm sure. This described in witness testimonies. They were shot. There's also evidence of people resisting going into the gas chambers and being shot as well. Not sure what the point here is again. Was Bruns lying?

Have you ever been within a mile of a pistol range?